The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

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The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:10 pm

So to avoid the derail of other threads with this subject, I'm making this one. It seems to me that people have extremely different opinions on the matter. On this forum people want to completely forget Bardock exists, but there many who want that dream meet/fight between Bardock and Goku. Whatever may be your opinion, let it be expressed in this thread.

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emperior wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:54 pm
Including Bardock there would have been incredibly out of place. In the last moments of the special, he projected on his son his own hatred for Freeza and his will for revenge, “avenge the Saiyans, Kakarot” or something similar.
That's, like you said, Toei's Bardock. Yes, Bardock would want a revenge, but no other Bardock projected on his son his own revenge.
emperior wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:54 pm
but always rejected their society and their ways.
Did he, though? Bear in mind that because we haven't see Goku gathering the dragon balls to revive them does not equal to him rejecting their society and their ways. This is the same franchise that deals with family members in a very odd way. Not only Saiyans, other characters also share this trait. Bulma would only mention her sister decades later. The point is, we don't know that.
emperior wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:54 pm
To include Bardock there it would make the moment feel like “finally the Saiyans have been avenged”.
But that scene is quite the opposite of it. If anything, it’s one of the most symbolic of how different Goku is from other Saiyans, as he was still able to feel remorse and empathy toward such a being as Freeza.
All of that despite having become the legendary warrior of race, the being who was supposed to be a brutal bloodthirsty warrior.
It’s a very personal scene for Goku and it’s very characterizing.
That's one way to interpret it, but "finally the Saiyans have been avenged" would also be another way to interpret based on this and this. I'm not one to say that Dragon Ball fights tell you a story, but if there's one exception to that, is Goku vs Freeza. It's more than Goku trying to save the Universe, one way or another, no matter how much you want to diminish the theme behind it, Goku is also fighting for the Saiyans. Vegeta also gives him this burden to bear during the whole fight.
emperior wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:54 pm
Thank god this drawing is just a pure fantasy what-if.
Toyotaro wrote:It may just be my what-if, but please, let your imagination run wild and enjoy it through the lens of, “Well, who says that wasn’t the case?!”

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:14 pm

I love Og Bardock in both personality and appearance-wise. However, I genuinely never want him and Goku to meet. I like him being this absent part of Goku's life. I like that he was a sad story of a failed warrior who was nothing more than a footnote. If they wanted, they could do the time breaker stuff and bring Bardock back. However, if that happens I would want a moment where Bardock is able to meet Goku but opts not to. I would want him to just admire his son from afar and let him enjoy the fathers he has.

Again my thoughts. A team-up could work just that's what I would want.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:30 pm

We have so many stories with absent fathers, though. I don't think we need more of those, or that Bardock meeting Goku would hurt someone/something (or more than what's have been harmed anyway).

Dragon Ball Online did exactly that. Bardock had the opportunity to meet his son, but he just aids the Time Patrol from the background. We would probably see Bardock admiring Goku after he transforms into Super Saiyan but they made the gravely mistake to cancel the game just before that. Only Dende knows what more the game would show/tell us. :(

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm

Well Goku said that Saiyans got what they deserved for killing innocents. But he said “they”, not “us”.
That they basically included every other Saiyan than Goku. He was distancing himself from that society which deserved death. And he recognized pretty well just how terrible the Saiyan’s society was, already since he met Raditz the first time. And, in fact, he told Vegeta he was glad he grew up on Earth.
I think it’s quite clear that Goku rejected his race’s society, as it represents the opposite of who he is.

I have to concede that manga Bardock, whom Toyotaro based the picture off, never expected Goku to avenge his race as far as we know. He didn’t expect nothing but mediocrity from his low class warrior son and that’s why he sent him to a backwater planet such as Earth.

And yeah, while Goku may have avenged his race with his final blast to Freeza (before we knew that Freeza actually survived), I still stand by the fact that it obviously wasn’t his intention therefore even in theory showing Bardock there would be out of place.
Goku responded to the blast out of necessity and self defense, but he didn’t want to kill Freeza and had made it clear several times during their battle: the first when he tells him to just give up, the second when he yells Freeza to stay down before he got cut by the Kienzans and the third when he gave him some of his energy.
It’s different from the real father-son Kamehameha of Gohan and Goku, where Cell was still an incredibly big threat and Gohan just wanted nothing but to obliterate him.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm

I think it’s kind of funny that FUNimation’s dub of the Bardock special basically foreshadowed how the character would be depicted in stuff like Episode of Bardock and Minus.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:14 pm

I think this is a great image, and it will probably make an even better figure. With that said, I have a bad feeling that all this talk about Toyotaro's stories he had back in the day is a hint at things to come. With how nostalgic driven and creatively bankrupt this franchise has become over the years, I'll fall out of my chair in shock if he's not brought back to life somehow and made part of the Z cast.

As if it's not bad enough that they've thrown the original Bardock special out the window, Toriyama can take things a step further and say his masterpiece known as Minus is actually connected to 2011's Episode of Bardock, meaning that he's alive in the past somewhere, waiting to be brought into the present, as the 1st legendary Ssj no less.
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:14 pm
I love Og Bardock in both personality and appearance-wise. However, I genuinely never want him and Goku to meet. I like him being this absent part of Goku's life. I like that he was a sad story of a failed warrior who was nothing more than a footnote.
I couldn't have said it better myself. What makes (or in this case, made) Bardock special was that he wasn't special. He was a nobody (character and power wise) that Freeza barely remembered, and someone Goku never knew even existed, much less cared about. His biggest contribution to Goku's character and life is that he didn't have any. Modern Bardock is the complete opposite, they've been trying so hard to make him special, and in doing so have completely missed the point of his character.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:30 pm
We have so many stories with absent fathers, though. I don't think we need more of those, or that Bardock meeting Goku would hurt someone/something (or more than what's have been harmed anyway).

Dragon Ball Online did exactly that. Bardock had the opportunity to meet his son, but he just aids the Time Patrol from the background. We would probably see Bardock admiring Goku after he transforms into Super Saiyan but they made the gravely mistake to cancel the game just before that. Only Dende knows what more the game would show/tell us. :(
Bruh, Goku's had an absent father for the whole story. You could just as easily say that there's way too many stories that abuse the "absent father comes back into his son's life" trope, which I can safely say I'm way more tired of.

Outside of video games, what-ifs and Toyotaro's little fanfic-y excerpts, I'm not hankering for more Goku/Bardock interactions, unless it is purely a one-off spirit interaction or something, but from the sounds of things you want Bardock to properly come back as a major cast member? I wouldn't hack that.

Bardock's story functioned as a nicely contained tragedy which ended with his death -- whether he dies knowing his son will eventually come back to avenge the Saiyan race like in the original TV special, or purely dies in vain with no knowledge of it like in Super: Broly, his story ended and I'm satisfied with it. To me, it's just unnecessary to undermine the tragic elements to Bardock's character; that he would never live to truly see the amazing person his runt of a son would grow up to be. Sometimes less is more. Dragon Ball is all about characters coming back from the dead, so it's more striking for Bardock and the Saiyans' deaths to remain this fixed fact of history.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:33 pm

Well, it's a nice fanart, I like Toyotaro's reference and I want to see the action figure soon, but that's it.

Also, it's just a minor detail but I don't like Bardock's eyes here. Goku is looking down in the scene, so Bardock should do the same.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:55 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:14 pm
I think this is a great image, and it will probably make an even better figure. With that said, I have a bad feeling that all this talk about Toyotaro's stories he had back in the day is a hint at things to come. With how nostalgic driven and creatively bankrupt this franchise has become over the years, I'll fall out of my chair in shock if he's not brought back to life somehow and made part of the Z cast.

As if it's not bad enough that they've thrown the original Bardock special out the window, Toriyama can take things a step further and say his masterpiece known as Minus is actually connected to 2011's Episode of Bardock, meaning that he's alive in the past somewhere, waiting to be brought into the present, as the 1st legendary Ssj no less.
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:14 pm
I love Og Bardock in both personality and appearance-wise. However, I genuinely never want him and Goku to meet. I like him being this absent part of Goku's life. I like that he was a sad story of a failed warrior who was nothing more than a footnote.
I couldn't have said it better myself. What makes (or in this case, made) Bardock special was that he wasn't special. He was a nobody (character and power wise) that Freeza barely remembered, and someone Goku never knew even existed, much less cared about. His biggest contribution to Goku's character and life is that he didn't have any. Modern Bardock is the complete opposite, they've been trying so hard to make him special, and in doing so have completely missed the point of his character.
So true. It's weird to me also because in DB we already had a Superman backstory/remake. Well, two if we talk about Supaman from Dr. Slump. Kami. Kami was like Superman already being sent away from a dying planet. We don't need another with Goku. Goku used to be so much more unique and different. I don't need him to be compassionate. I like him better as just a Saiyan

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:04 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm
Well Goku said that Saiyans got what they deserved for killing innocents. But he said “they”, not “us”.
That they basically included every other Saiyan than Goku. He was distancing himself from that society which deserved death. And he recognized pretty well just how terrible the Saiyan’s society was, already since he met Raditz the first time. And, in fact, he told Vegeta he was glad he grew up on Earth.
I think it’s quite clear that Goku rejected his race’s society, as it represents the opposite of who he is.
All fair points. But Vegeta is an evidence that people can change that Goku himself witnessed first hand. Who's to say that the way Saiyans were is any indicative Goku wouldn't accept his father in any shape or form? Had someone told Goku about Bardock specifically at any point before the Kamehameha, I doubt things would play out the same way.
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:14 pm
As if it's not bad enough that they've thrown the original Bardock special out the window, Toriyama can take things a step further and say his masterpiece known as Minus is actually connected to 2011's Episode of Bardock, meaning that he's alive in the past somewhere, waiting to be brought into the present, as the 1st legendary Ssj no less.
Hopefully there'll be someone to remember him about Dragon Ball Online instead of the OVA.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm
You could just as easily say that there's way too many stories that abuse the "absent father comes back into his son's life" trope, which I can safely say I'm way more tired of.
Can I? Then probably I should watch more stuff, because I see much more fathers being absent with little to no involvement at all with their kid's life than the opposite. Speaking of which, an example of your statement I can remember is Naruto. I don't want Bardock to have that much impact like Minato Namikaze had with Naruto (especially during the war), but it could be wonderful if Bardock (or Gine) got just a little bit of it.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm
but from the sounds of things you want Bardock to properly come back as a major cast member? I wouldn't hack that.
I like Bardock being a support-type, behind-the-curtains character, just like Dragon Ball Online (and Heroes somewhat) portrayed him. He doesn't need to stand out, getting all the attention and such. But him being there could be nice.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm
Bardock's story functioned as a nicely contained tragedy which ended with his death -- whether he dies knowing his son will eventually come back to avenge the Saiyan race like in the original TV special, or purely dies in vain with no knowledge of it like in Super: Broly, his story ended and I'm satisfied with it. To me, it's just unnecessary to undermine the tragic elements to Bardock's character; that he would never live to truly see the amazing person his runt of a son would grow up to be. Sometimes less is more. Dragon Ball is all about characters coming back from the dead, so it's more striking for Bardock and the Saiyans' deaths to remain this fixed fact of history.
I would be satisfied with Bardock's death if only we got more stories in the past with him. But we don't. We don't even know if he was alive and fought Tsufurujins. If we had his character development fully established since the beginning, we wouldn't have all these media depicting him with multiple personalities and whatnot.
EGonzo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:09 pm
As cool as I think that drawing looks, I wish he'd done the new Bardock. I prefer the new design but that's not important. The new design is canon, so I feel they should start moving on from the old.
We could move on, but there is no Bardock without his headband (just like there is no Future Trunks without his sword). It doesn't really matter our opinion on his design, but the headband is iconic and should have stayed. So if the only way for us to see Bardock with the headband is by sticking with the old (that is also in the manga, for that matter), then so be it.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:28 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:04 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm
but from the sounds of things you want Bardock to properly come back as a major cast member? I wouldn't hack that.
I like Bardock being a support-type, behind-the-curtains character, just like Dragon Ball Online (and Heroes somewhat) portrayed him. He doesn't need to stand out, getting all the attention and such. But him being there could be nice.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 pm
Bardock's story functioned as a nicely contained tragedy which ended with his death -- whether he dies knowing his son will eventually come back to avenge the Saiyan race like in the original TV special, or purely dies in vain with no knowledge of it like in Super: Broly, his story ended and I'm satisfied with it. To me, it's just unnecessary to undermine the tragic elements to Bardock's character; that he would never live to truly see the amazing person his runt of a son would grow up to be. Sometimes less is more. Dragon Ball is all about characters coming back from the dead, so it's more striking for Bardock and the Saiyans' deaths to remain this fixed fact of history.
I would be satisfied with Bardock's death if only we got more stories in the past with him. But we don't. We don't even know if he was alive and fought Tsufurujins. If we had his character development fully established since the beginning, we wouldn't have all these media depicting him with multiple personalities and whatnot.
I can understand your point about him being a shadowing player, but personally I'd rather he just remain dead than keep hanging around in the background for the sake of being there.

As for your point about more past stories with him, I think the OVA established everything we needed to know about him. He was developed just fine in the space of 48 minutes, just not in the way Dragon Ball characters conventionally tend to. My view on why there's all these lighter interpretations of his character boils down to the fact that the writers are either unwilling or unable to properly delve into his original villainous characterisation and they feel this need to "redeem" his character in some way. They still want to use him in projects for fanservice but have no idea what to do with him or how to portray him accurately. As far as I'm concerned, the original Toei version of Bardock has never truly reappeared.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:37 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:28 pm
personally I'd rather he just remain dead than keep hanging around in the background for the sake of being there.
He wouldn't be there doing nothing. Support characters are generally what allow things to move/happen. You can make them impact directly or indirectly the "main action", very important role if you ask me.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:28 pm
I think the OVA established everything we needed to know about him. He was developed just fine in the space of 48 minutes, just not in the way Dragon Ball characters conventionally tend to. My view on why there's all these lighter interpretations of his character boils down to the fact that the writers are either unwilling or unable to properly delve into his original villainous characterisation and they feel this need to "redeem" his character in some way. They still want to use him in projects for fanservice but have no idea what to do with him or how to portray him accurately. As far as I'm concerned, the original Toei version of Bardock has never truly reappeared.
You could say Toei's Bardock is a well defined character, yes. But they still took the liberty to change all that. You can also say that Freeza did kill Toei's Bardock, only for the character to be reborn as Ooishi Naho's Bardock (in which you may or may not make an argument that it represents a quick transition from the old Bardock to the new one) or as Online's/Toriyama's Bardock (this loving parent that will do anything to protect his son). If Bardock has to be back, you can do nothing but to accept it and then finding yourself having to pick one of these two options. The latter still has little character development (at least for me) and half of it can only be found in interview, not on-screen.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by kei17 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:52 pm

Damn, that father-son Kamehameha. To me, honestly, this is the most disgusting thing recently happened to the DB franchise. The art itself alone may be acceptable at least (aside from the artistic flaws such as their inconsistent directions of eyes,) but I cannot stand Toyotaro's shallow-minded idea mentioned in his interview. Bardock obviously has no place in the scene where Goku blows Freeza up. Even if he did, his position would be Freeza's side.

When it comes to the glorification of Bardock, the TV special already had a problem in the first place. Bardock is a ruthless fiend who has no qualms about killing people and ignores and swears at his own son solely for his low power level. Although he seems to have become somewhat aware of his identity and a sense of fellowship in his last moments, he still died as nothing but a scumbag. And then, they inserted his last line that says "Kakarot, inherit my will and you become the one to defeat Freeza." But what will? A personal grudge of a cold-blooded bastard? They glorified him out of nowhere by making him sound like a brave warrior who dedicated himself to the good of victims, which is not true. Don't get me wrong here; He is still a cool and fascinating character nonetheless, and the TV special is very well-made except for a few flaws like this sudden overglorification of the protagonist.

Toriyama was impressed by the TV special and decided to incorporate its story in the manga, but he seems to have not accepted everything from it. He overlaid Bardock's figure on Goku and let him even say that he fights for all the Namekians and Saiyans killed by Freeza. At that point, Goku is thinking about avenging his race to inspire himself in front of the powerful villain, but he fails to defeat Freeza by that will after all. What ultimately set his heart on fire was his personal emotion and sense of justice. Goku says that the Saiyans got what they deserved, and Freeza answers him back that it's not something like fatal karma and it actually was nothing but a result of his own selfish intention. In reaction to that, Goku says that he will destroy Freeza by his intention. The Saiyan race is no more really his concern at this point. It is why he is not interested in killing Freeza and stops fighting as soon as he feels satisfied. He is fighting for his own good here. However, Freeza betrays his mercy and Goku faces no choice but to finish him off despite himself, with yelling "Damned fool!" I think his cursing and blast were directed not only to Freeza's idiocy, but also the fate given by his Saiyan identity that ultimately led him to this ending. He sure virtually wreaked vengeance, but it was nothing but an irony. He didn't do it for his father's will.

From what I understand, Bardock and the other old Saiyans were all repelled by Goku, and he fought Freeza for himself. It was not obviously the moment of vengeance for his race when he killed Freeza. Toyotaro's idea is badly shallow and backed up only by the superficial drama of the situation.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:17 pm

While I agree that Bardock should just stay dead. Although videogame canon likes to keep him around. I'm not going to lie and say he doesn't look bad ass as a super saiyan. However, him meeting Goku will mean nothing. Goku doesn't even know who his parents are, especially since he had the head trauma as a kid. Bardock at this point in the main story is dead and his soul was cleansed or hell, one of the two.

Honestly, Goku meeting grandpa Gohan again would have more impact on the character then him ever meeting Bardock.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:42 pm

These figures are now available for preorder. You can also view the figures from multiple angles:

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ils/131804

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ils/131796

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:20 pm

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:17 pm
While I agree that Bardock should just stay dead. Although videogame canon likes to keep him around. I'm not going to lie and say he doesn't look bad ass as a super saiyan. However, him meeting Goku will mean nothing. Goku doesn't even know who his parents are, especially since he had the head trauma as a kid. Bardock at this point in the main story is dead and his soul was cleansed or hell, one of the two.

Honestly, Goku meeting grandpa Gohan again would have more impact on the character then him ever meeting Bardock.
Surprised nobody at Toei thought to do a Bardock in hell story

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by jamiljamtheman » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:06 pm

Do Bardock and Goku ever meet in any of the DBH/SDBH scenarios? Bardock’s been the masked evil Saiyan plus he appears to have SS 1-4, and I think that’s even before accounting for Xeno Bardock. Seems to be a big deal in Heroes.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:13 pm

No, they recently teased their meeting but nothing really came out of it. Even when Goku and Bardock are in the same place, the games don't make it a big deal (unless it is a what-if scenario with such intention), as you can see if you choose Bardock as your mentor and follow Fu's story in Xenoverse 2. They are there but they barely interact.

They are trying to avoid depicting this event, but I don't think it's Toriyama's/Dragon Room's intention to ever make it happen (they prefer to rehash crap ideas and make tournaments). So a definitive meeting in one of these new stories shouldn't be a concern to games' developers.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:51 pm

My set arrived today!
Overall, together they look awesome. Goku looks especially good and I'd recommend buying him on his own if you're not a fan of this "scene". Bardock is cool too, but he doesn't fit into his support stick as well, he'd look strange without Goku there, and his neck looks odd from certain angles (but it's a Toyotaro drawing, so...you know). Both figures come with a stand; each contains 3 holes for support sticks so you can choose to display them separately or together.

Has anyone else bought these? What do you think?

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