The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

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Grimlock
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:37 pm

So:

Image


After decades of people saying "Goku doesn't care about his father", we finally have the very first reaction and commentary from Goku himself about all of this.

But if Goku really cared, if he really wished he knew, why didn't he just ask about this father earlier?

Because that's not how Dragon Ball characters seem to operate. It seems to be a reflection of Akira Toriyama's inability to depict and show family bonds (if I'm wrong about this, please provide a source. Because this can be a trait of Toriyama, or just a trait only seen in Dragon Ball).

We have Muten Roshi and Uranai Baba. Tsuru and Tao Pai Pai. Goku and Raditz. Vegeta and Tarble. Bulma and Tights (as well as Freeza and Cooler in another dimension) and none of them shows any bond, everyone acts like they don't care about their siblings (I would even include Beerus and Champa here, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the scenes of them together that "hint" that there is a genuine love between them came from Toei).

This is how the cast meet Tarble. By everyone's reaction, we can safely say that Vegeta never mentioned his brother before, at any point, ever since Vegeta decided to stay on Earth.
You wrote:Yeah, but Grimlock they're Saiyans, that's why! You're not really making any point.
This is how Goku and Vegeta learn about Tights. By their expressions, we can safely say that Bulma never mentioned her sister before, at any point, even to her husband (and I doubt Trunks knew he has an aunt). Bulma is an Earthling, by the way.

So yeah, not mentioning/asking about relatives seems to be a common thing (in Dragon Ball or in Toriyama's works). But that does not mean the characters "don't care". Now it seems Goku does care, he just didn't ask and no one has ever brought this up to him before.

Can we please put "Goku doesn't care" to rest now?
Last edited by Grimlock on Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:00 pm

Grimlock wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:37 pm You guys tried to predict Goku's reaction for years and failed miserably.
What was your through process in writing up a comprehensive post and then ending it this way? From my perspective, it's like you wrap it all up and completely undermine yourself with this attitude. Why would anyone want to engage with you on this now?
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:05 pm

You're right. My bad.

Also, sorry about yesterday. I could take the "canon" conversation to another thread, but I had forgotten about its existence.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pm

It's true that there are many examples of estranged siblings in Toriyama's work, though I find that realistic. Sadly, I know plenty of people who don't get along with their siblings and lose touch while getting on with their own lives. Parent-child relationships in Dragon Ball are a more complex spectrum. It's one of the major themes of the latter portion of the original manga, after all. The Son/Satan family are all close, Bulma and Vegeta clearly love their children, the Grand Elder dies of heartbreak from seeing all his sons die. There's also a heavy emphasis on adoptive parental figures.

Goku's usual apathy towards his father is justified by the fact that Bardock has never been a part of his life, he has no memories of him. Goku loved his human grandpa dearest of all, and like many IRL adopted children, he doesn't seem to enjoy dwelling on his biological parentage. Him expressing some curiosity when the topic comes up is fairly natural given the circumstances. Especially with the context that he's learning that his father might not have been an entirely terrible guy.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:50 pm

Whatever, as long as it leads to Bardock and King Vegeta resurrected and joining the cast, then it's all good.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:46 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmIt's true that there are many examples of estranged siblings in Toriyama's work, though I find that realistic. Sadly, I know plenty of people who don't get along with their siblings and lose touch while getting on with their own lives.
That's no excuse to make everyone not even capable of mentioning a sibling in conversations. If you want to portrayal that, do it. But please also portray a good sibling relationship as well.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmParent-child relationships in Dragon Ball are a more complex spectrum. It's one of the major themes of the latter portion of the original manga, after all. The Son/Satan family are all close, Bulma and Vegeta clearly love their children, the Grand Elder dies of heartbreak from seeing all his sons die. There's also a heavy emphasis on adoptive parental figures.
That's all good, it's good that we can have these nice moments between parents and their kids. But what about siblings? We only have Android 17 and Android 18, though while they were villains I could say they were just close friends and wouldn't change a thing. Heck, I can still say that, to some extent.

Honestly, the only real sibling relationship I can see and tell it was developed nicely and that there is genuine love is Dabura and Towa. We can easily tell that there is a bond between them in both Xenoverse and Heroes.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmHim expressing some curiosity when the topic comes up is fairly natural given the circumstances. Especially with the context that he's learning that his father might not have been an entirely terrible guy.
And hopefully his wish to learn more about Bardock does come to fruition!
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:50 pmWhatever, as long as it leads to Bardock and King Vegeta resurrected and joining the cast, then it's all good.
Well said. They both should be brought back. Especially King Vegeta and his absurd lack of screentime, personality and development.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:11 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:46 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmIt's true that there are many examples of estranged siblings in Toriyama's work, though I find that realistic. Sadly, I know plenty of people who don't get along with their siblings and lose touch while getting on with their own lives.
That's no excuse to make everyone not even capable of mentioning a sibling in conversations. If you want to portrayal that, do it. But please also portray a good sibling relationship as well.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmParent-child relationships in Dragon Ball are a more complex spectrum. It's one of the major themes of the latter portion of the original manga, after all. The Son/Satan family are all close, Bulma and Vegeta clearly love their children, the Grand Elder dies of heartbreak from seeing all his sons die. There's also a heavy emphasis on adoptive parental figures.
That's all good, it's good that we can have these nice moments between parents and their kids. But what about siblings? We only have Android 17 and Android 18, though while they were villains I could say they were just close friends and wouldn't change a thing. Heck, I can still say that, to some extent.

Honestly, the only real sibling relationship I can see and tell it was developed nicely and that there is genuine love is Dabura and Towa. We can easily tell that there is a bond between them in both Xenoverse and Heroes.
Well, there's Gohan and Goten, though unfortunately they don't share a huge amount of screentime. Goten's most memorable scene sees him playfully training with his beloved big bro. Like you said, #17 and #18 still have a good relationship even though they've grown distant as they've got on with their own lives. When they reunite in Super, they still have that innate synchronisation with each other. If you want to include Heroes as well, there's also Kamin and Oren, the Tsufuruian twins.

I'd still argue that the way Toriyama writes siblings is realistic though -- how many people do you know that regularly bring up their siblings' lives in normal conversation? Bring it up when it's relevant, sure, but as I said, most people tend to get on with their own lives as they grow older.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:43 pmHim expressing some curiosity when the topic comes up is fairly natural given the circumstances. Especially with the context that he's learning that his father might not have been an entirely terrible guy.
And hopefully his wish to learn more about Bardock does come to fruition!
Looks to be the case.

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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:45 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:46 pmThat's no excuse to make everyone not even capable of mentioning a sibling in conversations.
Unless they are relevant to a topic you're discussing with someone there's no need to mention them in a conversation.
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Re: The All-Purpose Bardock & Goku Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:37 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:11 pmWell, there's Gohan and Goten, though unfortunately they don't share a huge amount of screentime. Goten's most memorable scene sees him playfully training with his beloved big bro.
Guess there's that. But it needs a bit more. Is there any good scene of them together in Dragon Ball GT? I honestly can't even remember.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:11 pmI'd still argue that the way Toriyama writes siblings is realistic though -- how many people do you know that regularly bring up their siblings' lives in normal conversation? Bring it up when it's relevant, sure, but as I said, most people tend to get on with their own lives as they grow older.
People do talk a lot, so I imagine they bring up a relative eventually, I don't know. I'm not one for conversation. :lol:
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:45 pmUnless they are relevant to a topic you're discussing with someone there's no need to mention them in a conversation.
Pretty sure Tarble should be relevant when Raditz and Vegeta said there were a specific number of Saiyans alive.

"but Vegeta didn't know Tarble was alive"

And the same could be said for Raditz, how did he know Goku was alive?

Also, there's no need to have a conversation, meeting your partner's family is, well... expected, isn't? You don't know your girlfriend's/wife's/boyfriend's/husband's close(r) relatives? How come Vegeta would only learn about Tights decades later? She is not a distant cousin, a lost relative. It's Bulma's sister! I can understand living with someone, yet no topic pops up where you can mention a close relative, but Vegeta didn't even know Tights' existence at all, they never met prior to Universe 6 saga.
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