What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Jord
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Jord » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:52 am

I love Dragon Ball but it definitely shows a cultural zeitgeist that raises some eyebrows. I don't see a reboot in the near future but when it happens, which will eventually happen, there are definitely some things that will be altered. I spoke with some friends about this, very good friends, that come from all kinds of different racial and societal backgrounds. We discussed this and even though we like the show and accept it, it really isn't that culturally appropriate anymore in some parts. Not all parts, some parts. And those parts can be very, very painful to a lot of people.
To start with, these are things I would like to see altered in a way:
  • Mr Popo is a horrible Sambo parody of black people. This is very, very bad.
  • Gay people shouldn't be brought in just to do gay jokes. (Otokosuki)
  • Master Roshi's constant groping of women isn't funny nor appropriate.
  • There should be more diversity in the team of fighters. I would like to see more female or genderless fighters

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Regular
Posts: 509
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:23 am

Piccolo and the rest of the Namekians are genderless. And I think Popo's design is merely coincidental.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 4815
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:40 am

I can see Mr. Popo getting a refresh for the blackface design, but honestly if Super isn't going to stop Roshi from being a pervert, rebooting the whole thing won't either. Japan clearly doesn't have a problem exposing that to twelve-year-olds.

User avatar
Matches Malone
I Live Here
Posts: 2693
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:35 am

I think you have to take into account that DB is made in Japan, for the Japanese people, so what offends America or other nations is probably not very high on their "to take into account" list.

User avatar
Locust
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:39 pm
Location: UK/Osaka

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Locust » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:49 am

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:40 am
I can see Mr. Popo getting a refresh for the blackface design, but honestly if Super isn't going to stop Roshi from being a pervert, rebooting the whole thing won't either. Japan clearly doesn't have a problem exposing that to twelve-year-olds.
Seeing as episodes of Super have received complaints due to Roshi's behaviour, this isn't true
I even remember lots of heated talk on Japanese social media about that particular episode - which lead to talk about Roshi in general - most of my peers are just really tired of him
To be honest, being perceived as female in Japan, and being the subject of groping and such - it just isn't funny, really

I don't really get why people seem to think the average Japanese person is ok with this sort of thing - to be frank, Roshi's antics are a tired old relic from an older generation and I would like to see it toned down
"I just wanna punch god in the face"
My English can be weak, please forgive mistakes/confusingly phrased sentences
Letterboxd

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18282
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:35 am

Locust wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:49 am
KBABZ wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:40 am
I can see Mr. Popo getting a refresh for the blackface design, but honestly if Super isn't going to stop Roshi from being a pervert, rebooting the whole thing won't either. Japan clearly doesn't have a problem exposing that to twelve-year-olds.
Seeing as episodes of Super have received complaints due to Roshi's behaviour, this isn't true
I even remember lots of heated talk on Japanese social media about that particular episode - which lead to talk about Roshi in general - most of my peers are just really tired of him
To be honest, being perceived as female in Japan, and being the subject of groping and such - it just isn't funny, really

I don't really get why people seem to think the average Japanese person is ok with this sort of thing - to be frank, Roshi's antics are a tired old relic from an older generation and I would like to see it toned down
Complaints doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen again.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Locust
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:39 pm
Location: UK/Osaka

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Locust » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:38 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:35 am
Complaints doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen again.
Wasn't the point of my post
"I just wanna punch god in the face"
My English can be weak, please forgive mistakes/confusingly phrased sentences
Letterboxd

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18282
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:43 am

It may not have been the point but the logical inference is if Japanese people have an issue with it, it likely wouldn't happen again, and that's not necessarily true. And not to sound condescending, but it's more helpful to restate your point instead of telling people they missed it. It might help to clear up confusion.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Locust
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:39 pm
Location: UK/Osaka

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Locust » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:43 am
It may not have been the point but the logical inference is if Japanese people have an issue with it, it likely wouldn't happen again, and that's not necessarily true.
Yes, this is true

My main thing I was responding to was "Japan clearly doesn't have a problem exposing that to twelve-year-olds." - what, often out of touch execs, do isn't always a reflection on the average Japanese person's opinions/feelings - particularly the younger/young adult generations
ABED wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:43 am
And not to sound condescending, but it's more helpful to restate your point instead of telling people they missed it. It might help to clear up confusion.
My apologies, didn't mean to be rude - I will keep this in mind
"I just wanna punch god in the face"
My English can be weak, please forgive mistakes/confusingly phrased sentences
Letterboxd

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18282
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:56 am

And now that I reread it, I can see your point. I'll defer to your experience as I don't know much about Japanese culture.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Toxin45
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 486
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Toxin45 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:15 am

I guess you have a point there but be care of sjws and anti-sjws

Vijay
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:48 am

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Vijay » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:27 am

Fckin updated animation, artwork & quality control consistency as of 2020.

Dragonball is a franchise that doesn't require DN, FMAB, HXH, AoT level storyboarding. Even regular slice of life episode with rich animation/artwork would keep veterans happy

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 4815
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:39 am

Locust wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 am
My main thing I was responding to was "Japan clearly doesn't have a problem exposing that to twelve-year-olds." - what, often out of touch execs, do isn't always a reflection on the average Japanese person's opinions/feelings - particularly the younger/young adult generations
I guess my point is that so long as out-of-touch execs are still making the storytelling decisions, this will remain in place unless enough people kick up a fuss about it.

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:05 am

The thought of a rebooted Dragon Ball with "modern standards" makes me sick.

Because let's see what "modern standards" means:
  • Over-done squash and stretch animation, very badly trying to be "cartoony", most atrociously applied to any sort of ki wave so that it warbles and jiggles and completely negates any sort of sense of energy. Ironically, Dragon Ball actually was cartoony and got away with it without any of that shit
  • Complete lack of any sense of impact, once obtained by shaking the camera only with a heavy hit, also obtained by having characters actually respond to attacks with weight rather than wispy jets of air coming out of their backs
  • Shaky-cam liberally applied to any and every action scene, despite this being a cartoon and rooted so heavily in old kung fu movies (well known for having very stable cameras that ironically sold the impact of fighting exponentially better than the hack-frauds of Hollywood's attempt to cover up their inability to compose fight scenes or have trained actors)
  • Soundtrack replaced with a generic electro-orchestral anime OST
  • Characters rewritten to be more like stereotypes of themselves since the series is now both an institution of Japan as well as one of the faces of shonen anime, meaning the characters' best known representation is what we'd get
  • Loss of that over-the-top 80s charm that the old series had naturally
Which just comes back to something I've been saying: if you want to remake Dragon Ball so badly to make it palatable to modern standards, why not just make a new series that's Dragon Ball in all but name (like I'm kinda sorta doing)? Watch a bunch of kung fu and wuxia movies, create a monkey-tailed protagonist, and do as you please. Do it "properly."

Dragon Ball, as we've learned time and time again, is never going to be treated "properly." People keep getting angry that Dragon Ball is disrespected in terms of new material, new releases, and whatnot— "How could they do this to Dragon Ball Z?!" is a common refrain I've heard at least a hundred-plus times in the past decade alone, and I'm sure that the OG of this forum have been saying it for much longer than I've noticed it. Quite literally the only piece of DB media in the past 10 years that people seem to unironically think was great without any "at least for DB standards" was FighterZ. It should be obvious that the people in charge are NEVER going to "treat the series with the respect it deserves" and do these sorts of things (partially because they think it's just a silly kid's comic, which it is— people here probably wouldn't think it's insane to have such feelings about, say, Arthur or Powerpuff Girls).

But bah, I'm just rambling again.
STRONGEST UNDER HEAVEN
Coming soon!

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13689
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 am

  1. No more racist caricatures. Please for fuck's sake, change Popo's design and speech pattern in modern reboots.
  2. No more sexual assault as jokes. There's nothing funny about sexual assault and clearly Dragon Ball isn't aimed at kids to be an erotic work.
  3. No queer-coding of villains. Queer-coding is propaganda by conservatives to get audiences to associate queer people with being evil and cisheteronormative people as heroes and 'normal'. Make the protagonists openly-queer if you want to include queer characters, not just enemies like General Blue and Freeza.
  4. Character designs that can actually be animated. Lengthier battle scenes with big episodes with dedicated staff so that there's not just one short battle scene that is well animated.
  5. Women-creating the series. Toei Animation has access to plenty of female creators, lets see them have even more prominent roles in creating Dragon Ball! Heck, let's see if any non-binary people are also on hand that can be involved more heavily in the creative process. Let's see what kind of work people other than men can make!
She/Her | Extremely Online MILF

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 am
  1. No queer-coding of villains. Queer-coding is propaganda by conservatives to get audiences to associate queer people with being evil and cisheteronormative people as heroes and 'normal'. Make the protagonists openly-queer if you want to include queer characters, not just enemies like General Blue and Freeza.
While I agree with the sentiment, Freeza is so clearly based on Dongfang Bubai; that's literally just the trope at play.
STRONGEST UNDER HEAVEN
Coming soon!

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13689
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 am
  1. No queer-coding of villains. Queer-coding is propaganda by conservatives to get audiences to associate queer people with being evil and cisheteronormative people as heroes and 'normal'. Make the protagonists openly-queer if you want to include queer characters, not just enemies like General Blue and Freeza.
While I agree with the sentiment, Freeza is so clearly based on Dongfang Bubai; that's literally just the trope at play.
His name has also become virtually synonymous with homosexuality and LGBT sexual orientations in Chinese popular culture.
...uh...it says right here that the man is tied to homosexuality. Freeza being based on a gay icon...just makes things worse, if anything.

There's also something vaguely transphobic about castrating one's self to achieve martial arts, since a lot of trans women who undergo gender affirmation surgery are accused of being mentally ill men chasing after an impossible state of womanhood.
Last edited by JulieYBM on Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
She/Her | Extremely Online MILF

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 am

And another thing: I'd probably have Toei sever their relationship with FUNimation. It's clear they're not going to respect the source material anyway, so no matter what a reboot does, their dub of it is just going to devolve into callbacks, TFS-styled jokes, and meme bait.
STRONGEST UNDER HEAVEN
Coming soon!

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:38 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 am
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:21 am
  1. No queer-coding of villains. Queer-coding is propaganda by conservatives to get audiences to associate queer people with being evil and cisheteronormative people as heroes and 'normal'. Make the protagonists openly-queer if you want to include queer characters, not just enemies like General Blue and Freeza.
While I agree with the sentiment, Freeza is so clearly based on Dongfang Bubai; that's literally just the trope at play.
His name has also become virtually synonymous with homosexuality and LGBT sexual orientations in Chinese popular culture.
...uh...it says right here that the man is tied to homosexuality. Freeza being based on a gay icon...just makes things worse, if anything.
No, I'm saying that's the point; Bubai is a classic villain whose status as a trans eunuch is part of his character's charm and appeal. Freeza being effeminate (and possibly the entire Freeza Force/Saiyans being 80s glam rock aerobics nerds) is just an extension of that. Making Freeza NOT that completely eliminates that point of his character (a point which, unfortunately, is completely lost on Westerners since I'm sure 99% of people reading my post didn't even know Dongfang Bubai existed and most would just consider him a "creepy fag" rather than any sort of fantastic character since that's all our queer characters could be for the longest time)

Other queer characters in DB don't really get that excuse; they're just joke at an expense.
STRONGEST UNDER HEAVEN
Coming soon!

User avatar
JulieYBM
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 13689
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Contact:

Re: What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:55 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:38 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:34 am
Yuli Ban wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 am


While I agree with the sentiment, Freeza is so clearly based on Dongfang Bubai; that's literally just the trope at play.
His name has also become virtually synonymous with homosexuality and LGBT sexual orientations in Chinese popular culture.
...uh...it says right here that the man is tied to homosexuality. Freeza being based on a gay icon...just makes things worse, if anything.
No, I'm saying that's the point; Bubai is a classic villain whose status as a trans eunuch is part of his character's charm and appeal. Freeza being effeminate (and possibly the entire Freeza Force/Saiyans being 80s glam rock aerobics nerds) is just an extension of that. Making Freeza NOT that completely eliminates that point of his character (a point which, unfortunately, is completely lost on Westerners since I'm sure 99% of people reading my post didn't even know Dongfang Bubai existed and most would just consider him a "creepy fag" rather than any sort of fantastic character since that's all our queer characters could be for the longest time)

Other queer characters in DB don't really get that excuse; they're just joke at an expense.
...but it's still intentionally overtly queer-coding a villain, while the protagonists are portrayed straight and flat as can be, especially during the Namek arc. Being based on a literary figure doesn't stop the issue from being an issue.
She/Her | Extremely Online MILF

Post Reply