DB is not better than DBZ

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:51 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:29 pmThat's a "draw" like King Arthur vs. The Black Knight was a draw.
That's a reach. It was only a flesh wound.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:05 pm

It's definitely not better than the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. I do say its best is better than what followed.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:14 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:51 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:29 pmThat's a "draw" like King Arthur vs. The Black Knight was a draw.
That's a reach. It was only a flesh wound.
Image

But to say something a little more constructive, I'd say that the Saiyan Arc is the point in Dragon Ball where stories start actually requiring more complex resolutions than those in earlier Dragon Ball arcs - Goku stops being able to solely resolve them on his own (even after training or other boosts), even in the instances where he wins one-on-one, such as with Freeza.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:35 pm

he needed Tenshinhan to defeat Piccolo. He saved him from one of Piccolo's giant blasts.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:51 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:35 pm he needed Tenshinhan to defeat Piccolo. He saved him from one of Piccolo's giant blasts.
Yeah, that's true - that occurred to me after I wrote my comment above (and also, while we're on it, I guess something kinda like that - though somewhat less significant - happens against Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai, when Kami intervenes and blocks an attack on Goku's behalf), but as a generalisation, I think I'd stand by the statement insofar as 'more complex resolutions' goes, overall.

Just as an example, the fight with Kid Buu goes through 4 or 5 stages before Goku sorta technically gets the win (SSj3 Goku vs. Buu, SSj2 Vegeta vs. Buu, Fat Buu (and Mr. Satan) vs. Buu, Vegeta vs. Buu, Goku and the Genki Dama vs. Buu), with a bunch of changes going on in the background to make the fight shift between these stages and help the heroes.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:10 pm

Fair. I don't know if complex would be the word I'd choose but point taken.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by nickzambuto » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:40 am

ABED wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:47 am
nickzambuto wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:31 am The series kept getting better as it went on. Toriyama became a better writer and artist with time. Just like how Goku grows stronger over time.
I agree to an extent. He kept getting better and refining his talents, but he tops out at the Namek/Freeza arc. There's still some good stuff afterwards but he settled into a formula that worked and by the end, it's clear that he's running on fumes and is racing towards the finish line.

Piccolo's journey has meaning because of where he started. You can't be redeemed if you don't do anything wrong.
I think the whole stretch from saiyans to androids was the high point of Dragon Ball’s story. The androids arc had a lot to contribute with all the father/son themes and Goku bringing his super saiyan form to mastery.

The Majin Boo arc is when it goes off the rails but even that arc has several moments which are some of the best in the series. Majin Vegeta, Mr. Satan and Boo’s development, fusion, and then the whole climax on Kai’s planet. The arc just had really low lows but the high points are some of the best in the series, so overall I would say the manga generally just got better as it went along.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:10 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:14 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:51 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:29 pmThat's a "draw" like King Arthur vs. The Black Knight was a draw.
That's a reach. It was only a flesh wound.
Image

But to say something a little more constructive, I'd say that the Saiyan Arc is the point in Dragon Ball where stories start actually requiring more complex resolutions than those in earlier Dragon Ball arcs - Goku stops being able to solely resolve them on his own (even after training or other boosts), even in the instances where he wins one-on-one, such as with Freeza.
"You stupid bastard, you have no bones left!"
"Eh, I've 'ad worse. Come on, ya sissy!" (shoots him in the eye)
:lol:

Seriously though Masenko, there's no reality where Vegeta didn't win that fight. Goku was literally rendered literally immobile -- sure, Vegeta technically had to "cheat" by going Oozaru, but it counts. Goku was totally down for the count after that. Even if he didn't, Vegeta would probably have won anyway since he didn't realise that the Kaioken technique would have eventually wore down Goku's body. Goku of course put up an excellent fight, but it was ultimately the combined efforts of Krillin, Yajirobe and Gohan that brought it to a "draw".

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:45 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:10 pm
Seriously though Masenko, there's no reality where Vegeta didn’t win the fight
Except for the reality of what actually happened. Because Vegeta didn’t win the fight. Vegeta WOULD have won if Gohan and Kuririn and Yadjirobe hadn’t intervened but that’s not what happened. Goku and Vegeta were both down and crushed, literally the only thing that spared Vegeta from being ended by Kuririn was Goku begging him to spare Vegeta for a rematch.

To reiterate
Would Vegeta have have won at that point and time if Goku hadn’t received outside help? Yes.

Did he win? No and I have no clue how fleeing the planet you were about to conquer; bloody, beaten and half dead with the only thing saving you from death is your opponent asking for mercy on your behalf would be considered a win by any metric.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:37 pm

Vegeta won the one on one fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:45 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:10 pm
Seriously though Masenko, there's no reality where Vegeta didn’t win the fight
Except for the reality of what actually happened. Because Vegeta didn’t win the fight. Vegeta WOULD have won if Gohan and Kuririn and Yadjirobe hadn’t intervened but that’s not what happened. Goku and Vegeta were both down and crushed, literally the only thing that spared Vegeta from being ended by Kuririn was Goku begging him to spare Vegeta for a rematch.

To reiterate
Would Vegeta have have won at that point and time if Goku hadn’t received outside help? Yes.

Did he win? No and I have no clue how fleeing the planet you were about to conquer; bloody, beaten and half dead with the only thing saving you from death is your opponent asking for mercy on your behalf would be considered a win by any metric.
I should have clarified, Vegeta may not have "won" overall against all of the Z-Fighters, but he won his one-on-one fight against Goku. You said Goku didn't lose, but he clearly did. He was FUBAR'd long before Vegeta. It's like if I randomly decided to jump into the UFC octagon and had my head kicked in by Junior Dos Santos, but then Francis Ngannou came in and beat him up afterwards -- even if Dos Santos eventually lost to someone else, he still obviously beat me.

I'd only say it was a draw if you combine all the Z-Fighters efforts, but Goku played no part in that final struggle besides handing Krillin the Spirit Bomb, which still wasn't enough. By the end of their one-on-one fight, Vegeta was down an eye but was still 10x his starting power whereas Goku was out of stamina and rendered immobile long before Vegeta was (and even then, he still had the willpower to crawl back in his ship -- Goku was literally unable to move a muscle). Until Gohan crushed Vegeta in his Oozaru form which caused him to be a crawling wreck on the ground, Vegeta still had enough power to slaughter everyone but he ultimately brought about his own defeat by Gohan's furry backside.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:15 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:45 pmDid he win? No and I have no clue how fleeing the planet you were about to conquer; bloody, beaten and half dead with the only thing saving you from death is your opponent asking for mercy on your behalf would be considered a win by any metric.
He beat Goku, sure he didn't kill him, but breaking every bone in his body is definitely a win. He took down both Krillin and Yajerobe, easily. When it comes to Gohan, remember that Vegeta managed to cut off his tail, which caused him to lose consciousness. Vegeta may not have won the war, as he didn't kill Goku or destroy earth, but he definitely won the fight. No one managed to put Vegeta down, it was his own miscalculation on where Gohan would land that lead to him being unable to finish what he started. If I remember correctly, Vegeta was the first and only villain that got as close as he did to taking everyone out.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:10 pmGoku was literally rendered literally immobile -- sure, Vegeta technically had to "cheat" by going Oozaru, but it counts.
I don't see how it was cheating, as it's no different from when anyone else transformed in battle. With that said, Vegeta transforming is what helped everyone win, as it was his fake moon that resulted in his power going down and Gohan being able to transform.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Arteaga4K » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:02 pm

It's like, their opinion my man...

I thought Z had higher highs (the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arcs were the peak of the franchise imo) but also lower lows (Buu). DB felt more consistent to me
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:04 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:37 pm Vegeta won the one on one fight.
Vegeta won the fight but he lost the war.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:22 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:04 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:37 pm Vegeta won the one on one fight.
Vegeta won the fight but he lost the war.
This seems a good opportunity for a reminder of what the exchange overall was about, so let's be clear here - what started this particular exchange wasn't any claim about how Vegeta ended up, but rather this quote about Goku:
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:56 pm It also seemed by the Saiyan portion of the story Toriyama was afraid to allow Goku to lose a fight. A bad guy can have the upperhand for a bit but Goku was never allowed to actually lose a fight.

Compare to pre-Z era Dragon Ball where Goku straight up lost and was near death to General Blue, Tao, and Piccolo Daimao
No-one's arguing whether Vegeta 'won' the fight on Earth overall - just stating the obvious, that Goku 'straight-up lost' his fight with Vegeta, just as hard as he lost to any of the 'pre-Z' foes listed (harder, even, compared to some of them - he wakes up from Tao's beating after a short period and almost immediately starts climbing the tallest tower, whereas his prognosis after the Vegeta fight was that he'd be laid out in hospital for months), and that the take that Goku wasn't 'allowed' to lose in this period is just plain wrong.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:35 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:22 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:04 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:37 pm Vegeta won the one on one fight.
Vegeta won the fight but he lost the war.
This seems a good opportunity for a reminder of what the exchange overall was about, so let's be clear here - what started this particular exchange wasn't any claim about how Vegeta ended up, but rather this quote about Goku:
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:56 pm It also seemed by the Saiyan portion of the story Toriyama was afraid to allow Goku to lose a fight. A bad guy can have the upperhand for a bit but Goku was never allowed to actually lose a fight.

Compare to pre-Z era Dragon Ball where Goku straight up lost and was near death to General Blue, Tao, and Piccolo Daimao
No-one's arguing whether Vegeta 'won' the fight on Earth overall - just stating the obvious, that Goku 'straight-up lost' his fight with Vegeta, just as hard as he lost to any of the 'pre-Z' foes listed (harder, even, compared to some of them - he wakes up from Tao's beating after a short period and almost immediately starts climbing the tallest tower, whereas his prognosis after the Vegeta fight was that he'd be laid out in hospital for months), and that the take that Goku wasn't 'allowed' to lose in this period is just plain wrong.
Yep, it definitely seemed for a good bit that Goku would be out of commission in the Metro hospital and not able to to function normally for quite a long while with his extensive injuries at least until Yajirobe brought the Senzu beans from Korin while visiting. The latter was somewhere around roughly a few weeks or even a month after Gohan, Bulma and Krillin had blasted off for Planet Namek so ultimately that ended up not being the case.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:55 pm

I don't have any complain on DBZ and having a grown up Goku being involved in serious contexts was appropriate.
My only complain is how the whole thing get rushed just after Goku character arc ended.
I mean: it was quite obvious to me that the whole thing should have ended there, at least on Goku part - you got months of Gohan spamming and potential unlocking. You got months and months about the only single Super Sayan in the universe. A very rare condition.
I think they simply rushed the thing - " hurry, let's milk the thing, what people like? Vegeta, morphing opponents and blonde hair". But that wasn't enough to come with some solid background. The more if the original author never had plans to continue the story (to my knowledge, Tori-Sama was all about Dragon Quest at the time).

DB was actually a fun, very fun action comedy as a whole, DBZ early part was a good action shonen, and then... well, so probably DB was a better product after all, without it no one will cared so much about shouting aliens bombing each other with laser beams.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:07 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:55 pm
DBZ early part was a good action shonen,

What does that even mean? They’re both shonen.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:41 pm

DB was a very good consistant series that mixed in adventure, humor, and action. DBz was this crazy, flashy, explosive rollercoaster of an experience. DB, to me, had better story, plots, and good use of many characters. DBZ started trimming things down and became this lean this for most of it. The fighting also seemed better cheorgraphed. I definitely prefer the on-the-ground fights over the ki spams and parts where people just rapidly punch and kick each other in midair. I actually really like the Tourn of Power in Super for that as well.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:26 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:07 pm
ChronoTwigger wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:55 pm
DBZ early part was a good action shonen,

What does that even mean? They’re both shonen.
Early DB was more a kodomo or a gag manga than a shonen.
DBZ is definitely an action shonen.
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