DB is not better than DBZ

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Banduck
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DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Banduck » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:00 am

I do not understand why everyone says that DB is better than DBZ.
I grew up with both series, but I have watched DBZ 6 times in my life, DB only once as a kid.
Now I decided to watch DB again, and I have to admit I'm a little disappointed.

I will now address all the things that are always praised about DB:
"Yamcha was strong, Tien was strong, every character felt relevant, etc"
Wtf did we watch the same show? The side characters are much more useless in DB than in DBZ.
Red Ribbon: Goku is the only character who accomplishes anything.
All other characters only appear after he has already defeated the Red Ribbon army.
Yamcha is weak from the beginning, his only strong moment is his fight against Tien.
He couldn't even defeat the mummy!
Tien was strong for a single saga. After that, he couldn't even defeat Drum, who was defeated by Goku with only one kick *sigh*
And after that he just lay there half dead and did nothing to defeat Piccolo.
Oh, and Yamcha only showed up when it was all over, again.
And the 23rd tournament shows just once more that every character except Goku is absolutely weak and useless.
Bulma also doesn't do anything in the whole series (except in the first saga)
And now let's have a look at DBZ: Goku does not manage to defeat Vegeta alone - Gohan, Kuririn and even Yajirobe all contribute to it. The Freeza and especially the Cell Saga also made very good use of the side characters. Almost every character had his good moments, and even Bulma was useful.

"DB had better characters & better story/better written"
The only character that was really better in DB than in DBZ is Master Roshi.
Better story? I find DBZ much better, more exciting and more interesting. The enemies are hyped much more, everything felt more thought out, more dramatic & emotional. For example Saiyan Saga to Freeza Saga, which felt like a good long thought out story.
How can this be compared with these short simple sagas from DB?
The characters in DBZ also behave much more realistic/emotional during sad moments.
Compare how Tien reacts to Chaozu's death in DB, and then in DBZ.
Or how Bulma reacts to Yamcha's death in DBZ.
Better characters? The only thing I have to say: Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks

To be honest, I even find the humor in DBZ better than in DB.
I even like the Z Filler more! Is something wrong with me?
Or maybe it's just the dub. I watch DB/Z in German, and DBZ has a much better Dub than DB. Could that be the reason why I like DBZ so much more? Can a dub make such a huge difference?
I'm just trying to understand why my opinion is so different.

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mute_proxy
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:16 am

Do you want to argue about opinions? People like what they like, and you like what you like, none of it is objective or fact.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:20 am

DB isn't better than DBZ, and DBZ isn't better than DB, they're both one story. The split was arbitrary for marketing reasons.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Banduck » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:27 am

mute_proxy wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:16 am Do you want to argue about opinions? People like what they like, and you like what you like, none of it is objective or fact.
I understand that everyone has their own opinion. But the reasons given why DB is better than DBZ (like that the characters in DB are more relevant) are objectively wrong. This just confuses me, and I would like to know if anyone agrees with that. Or if someone can convince me otherwise.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:39 am

Matches Malone wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:20 am DB isn't better than DBZ, and DBZ isn't better than DB, they're both one story. The split was arbitrary for marketing reasons.

That doesn’t change the fact that one can prefer the earlier part of the story over the latter or vice versa.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:47 am

Banduck wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:27 am
mute_proxy wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:16 am Do you want to argue about opinions? People like what they like, and you like what you like, none of it is objective or fact.
I understand that everyone has their own opinion. But the reasons given why DB is better than DBZ (like that the characters in DB are more relevant) are objectively wrong. This just confuses me, and I would like to know if anyone agrees with that. Or if someone can convince me otherwise.
It’s completely inarguable that characters like Yamacha, Tenshinhan, and Roshi were far more relevant in Dragon Ball than DBZ.

Yamcha was always kind of a joke but he at least defeated the Invincible Man and made it past the preliminaries in all three tournaments.


As far as story goes that’s a matter of opinion. I found the pacing of Z pretty glacier. Even the longest arc in Dragon Ball (Red Ribbon) doesn’t have too bad of a problem with pacing aside from the General Blue portion.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ABED » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:58 am

Matches Malone wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:20 am DB isn't better than DBZ, and DBZ isn't better than DB, they're both one story. The split was arbitrary for marketing reasons.
It's not any different from someone saying they prefer earlier seasons of a show to later seasons of a show or vice versa. Hell, it's very common opinion that shows that start in high school slip in quality after the characters leave high school. It's all still one show, And you don't even need some need dividing line. Damn near every story that goes long enough dips in quality.

And how is any of this objectively right or wrong? You're welcome to your opinion, and there's a convincing argument to be made that the last 2/3 of the story are better than the first third. I don't agree, but I would definitely agree that the Saiyan and Freeza arcs are among DB's best.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:32 am

It's okay to argue opinions. Especially if you're trying to remain as objective as possible, which is what the OP appears to be doing.

Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two different anime series, regardless of the manga they are adapted from. Whether they make up a single story doesn't change that. And I don't think that I would call the split "arbitrary".

I do however think that understanding that the two series were adapted from one single manga series is important in making judgements about the story's progression and quality.

I never thought the difference in character relevance between the two series had much to do with the overall quality of the series.

Yes, a dub can make a huge difference in the perception of an anime series. It's possible that if you had seen a different dub, or watched in the original Japanese, that your opinions would be completely different.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:01 am

In terms of world building, and making characters like Tien, Yamcha, Chaoitzu, Krillin, Oolong and Puar likeable, OG Dragon Ball wins hands down, but I'd argue we still get plenty of both in the Saiyan arc. The revelation of Goku's origins was a masterfully written retcon that I must credit to Toriyama as very few writers would be able to pull it off yet still feel so natural and earned. I'd also argue the Freeza arc, which ties into said origins, much like the Saiyan arc is as good, if not better than most of OG Dragon Ball. There is a considerable dip in quality for the Artificial Human and Buu arcs, although both are still serviceable and enjoyable to watch, and I'd say much of the preference for OG Dragon Ball comes not from it having the best arcs, but for being more consistently good it's entire run whereas Z starts fantastic (I'd argue initially it is better than the best of OG Dragon Ball) and then becomes rather good, but not as great for the latter portion.

That said, on a purely entertainment level I prefer Z, and to a greater extent Kai.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:16 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:58 amIt's not any different from someone saying they prefer earlier seasons of a show to later seasons of a show or vice versa.
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:39 amThat doesn’t change the fact that one can prefer the earlier part of the story over the latter or vice versa.
I have no issues with anyone liking one part over the other, but there just isn't such a difference between them that's so grand that one is unwatchable compared to the other. Everything that people like in Z essentially started in DB, and is more or less just a continuation of an ongoing thing, rather than something new.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:46 am

Honestly I don't believe DB (Pre-DBZ, not the whole manga) could survive in nowadays Weekly Shonen Jump. There's barely anything impressive about it.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:05 am

Matches Malone wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:16 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:58 amIt's not any different from someone saying they prefer earlier seasons of a show to later seasons of a show or vice versa.
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:39 amThat doesn’t change the fact that one can prefer the earlier part of the story over the latter or vice versa.
I have no issues with anyone liking one part over the other, but there just isn't such a difference between them that's so grand that one is unwatchable compared to the other. Everything that people like in Z essentially started in DB, and is more or less just a continuation of an ongoing thing, rather than something new.
I mean people leave series all the time. I can think of a number of shows where I can only watch season 1-X
This show was good until X season or thing happened. No different than someone arguing that Dragon Ball was good until the shift to the Saiyans as the main focus.

The shift from Dragon Ball’s gag series beginnings didn’t start until Red Ribbon and didn’t really start until the 22nd Budokai. So someone could absolutely prefer, overall, the portion of the series with Z in the title.

I don’t think Z fans are fair when they dismiss Dragon Ball as an expendable goofy light hearted comedy that’s more adventure than action but can still think the Z part of the series is better.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by kyppk » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:25 am

FortuneSSJ wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:46 am Honestly I don't believe DB (Pre-DBZ, not the whole manga) could survive in nowadays Weekly Shonen Jump. There's barely anything impressive about it.
Hard agree, but it's not exactly extraordinary that a 34 year old series that helped to define a new genre couldn't compete against the newer series of said matured/evolved genre.

That being said I don't even think DB and DBZ are directly comparable. While it may have been an arbitrary decision to make Z a new entity outside of DB, IMO, it works to separate what I view as a series mainly focused on comedy and adventure and a series about action and comedy. It's not the cleanest or most accurate separation, but it works in what it does.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:31 am

FortuneSSJ wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:46 am Honestly I don't believe DB (Pre-DBZ, not the whole manga) could survive in nowadays Weekly Shonen Jump. There's barely anything impressive about it.
Hard to say because things don't exist in a vacuum it's difficult to say how the landscape of Weekly Shonen Jump would look today. Since a lot of their popular titles like One Piece and Naruto were heavily inspired by Dragon Ball, without Dragon Ball being written in the first place it's possible neither Oda nor Kishimoto would have had the inspiration for their series, or they could have been completely different and thus not been as successful as they were. We have to also consider if there was no Dragon Ball there probably would have been another Battle Shounen series that could have been extremely influential but in a different respect (it may have blended thriller with wuxia rather than comedy with wuxia for example).

On a similar note before Dragon Ball was there any wuxia type series other than Fist of the North Star that really caught on or had some influence in Japan or elsewhere? It seems like part of the reason Dragon Ball really resonated with people, especially younger readers than FOTNS is that there had never been anything like it up to that point.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Banduck » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:44 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:47 am As far as story goes that’s a matter of opinion. I found the pacing of Z pretty glacier. Even the longest arc in Dragon Ball (Red Ribbon) doesn’t have too bad of a problem with pacing aside from the General Blue portion.
Maybe I'm weird, but I have no problem with DBZ pacing. The only exception is Namek filler.
However, I found the pacing of muscle tower and general blue almost unbearable.
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:01 am In terms of world building, and making characters like Tien, Yamcha, Chaoitzu, Krillin, Oolong and Puar likeable, OG Dragon Ball wins hands down, but I'd argue we still get plenty of both in the Saiyan arc.
Yeah that's true and I actually enjoyed DB pretty much. BUT once the difference in strength between Goku and the others was too big, it started to get a bit annoying.
That was when Goku drank that water and suddenly was much stronger than Tien. I really really didn't like that.
(Especially because of all the people claiming that the side characters in DB are much stronger & more useful than in Z... I expected them to help defeat every enemy.)
(and it gave me GT vibes)
Matches Malone wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:16 am I have no issues with anyone liking one part over the other, but there just isn't such a difference between them that's so grand that one is unwatchable compared to the other. Everything that people like in Z essentially started in DB, and is more or less just a continuation of an ongoing thing, rather than something new.
My post probably seems more negative than it was intended.
I like both DB and DBZ. If I had to rate them, I would give DBZ a 10/10 and DB an 7.6/10 (8/10 if the ger dub was better)
Maybe I had too high expectations because of all the comments saying DB is so much better than DBZ.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:07 am

FortuneSSJ wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:46 amHonestly I don't believe DB (Pre-DBZ) could survive in nowadays Weekly Shonen Jump. There's barely anything impressive about it.
Keep in mind that today's standards were set by DB, so without it, they wouldn't exist, just as Z itself wouldn't exist. 20 years from now, we might say the same thing about what's considered great today (MHA, AOT, etc.).
Banduck wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:44 amMaybe I had too high expectations because of all the comments saying DB is so much better than DBZ.
This probably played a part in it, as some fans tend to make DB look like a masterpiece that was ruined by Z, when in reality, they aren't much different from one another.

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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:09 am

OG DB starts off with the Pilaf arc, which is before the show finds its feet, and I still think that's the reason why so many people never got into it. It's like starting TNG at season 1 after watching DS9.
But, DB also has the Red Ribbon arc, which takes a while, but is awesome, its has three tournament arcs, each of which are excellent, and the Piccolo arc is masterful.

Z has the Saiyan arc, which is pretty solid, the Namek arc, which is one of the franchise's very best, then you have Androids/Cell, which is an overlong mess that changes its mind on what it is every five minutes with no overall coherent direction, then you have Boo, which is also kind of a mess, and completely loses its momentum for a massive span of time before the climax.

To me, there's no contest, DB is the franchise's best. Z has the stronger start, and the Namek arc is brilliant, but that's its ground.

But, they are one show, and together, they form a far better whole than either does on its own.

And this is all opinion anyway, so it doesn't really matter much. :P
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:53 pm

@Robo4900 Agreed, Z has a lot of good material during it's run but also as you say gets dragged down at times especially during the Androids and Cell episodes. DB i personally believe has overall much more stronger storytelling that really picks up after the first arc which has a far more Dr. Slump type comedic tone to it, due to Toriyama having recently just come off of the conclusion of that series' run when starting Dragon Ball's original serialization in late 1984.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:47 pm

To me trying to pick between DB and Z is like picking a favorite child.
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Re: DB is not better than DBZ

Post by DBPirate » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:14 pm

I don't think preferences regarding DB and DBZ isn't about which is better but rather their differences. People that prefer DB tend to like the adventuring aspects of DB more than the emphasis on fighting a villain who goes through multiple forms. Even when there was fighting in DB, I would say it was more tactics-based than Z.

I prefer Z, but I can see why others wouldn't.
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