Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by damn » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:06 pm

Cold Skin wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:30 am When I think about his character, it's through an anime lense, so I picture him as being the falsely-grumpy uncle of the family. Nothing worse.
No, that's literally what he is by Cell/Boo.
AT just changed him drastically even though it doesn't makes sense continuity-wise whatsoever and the audience just has to roll with it.
He went from the ruthless calculative adaptive antihero/villain to some rival with inferiority complex and not much else.
He got revived thanks to his popularity and AT flanderized one of his aspects to the extreme, turned him completely one-dimensional and used him as a useful plot convenience tool.

On Bulma: What the hell are you on about?
Goku threw her car and then threatened to fight her(thinking she's a monster).
And where did she complain that he was still alive?
The only thing she did was get shocked that he was alive after she shot him.
I swear the way some fans are able to interpret the manga in such wrong ways is disturbing to say the least, it's like they make up their own headcanon and forget how the actual story went down.
In addition to that there is no way you can compared the early gag DB to the later more serious DB.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:52 pm

^ In my point of view, when you shoot someone and you're shocked that he's still alive, it does mean you intended to kill him.
And to me, she looks like she's shooting from anger, not fear, even saying "Damn little brat!!!", not "freaking monster" or anything like that.
Doesn't look scared to me, just lashing out in anger like Bulma usually vengefully does, and still recently.
Then, "Why isn't he dead?" - whether said in shock or not - clearly states what you intended to do to a KID whose words clearly show he misunderstands what you are.

Bulma could have willingly been a kid murderer, not in self-defense out of panic, shivering in fear, saying "don't come any closer" and shooting because being forced to at the last moment, but just because "damn little brat, take this!!".

Unforgivable in reality, no matter if a kid lifts your car and says you're both gonna fight now.
Yet guess what, the manga/anime lense is valid for gags as well as serious moments, which makes this moment perfectly fine, just like casually living with Vegeta - who is not making a mess - after all his murders is perfectly fine.
You just forgive all that in those fictions and magically forget the past, as the characters seem to do. You just forgive bad guys for attempted murders and actual murders they've done in the past when they become good guys in shonen-type anime/manga worlds, whether gag or not.

You wanna punish Vegeta like how he would be punished in reality? Fine, then also punish Bulma for trying to murder a kid instead of talking it through, Kame Sennin for his pervert touchings of girls without their consents, Goku too while you're at it since he endangers entire universes out of selfish desires and is litterally playing russian roulette with lives, Piccolo for beating up a kid on a daily basis, Beerus for exterminating people not when it is deserved but when he's unhappy with the way he's treated even when the exterminated people counts billions of innocents...

As for his "sudden" evolution...
Vegeta is forced to live on Earth, has a clear new objective of seeing the Super Saiyan and surpassing him because he always considered himself as the best Saiyan so far, even obsessing over being the Super Saiyan on Namek to a point that annoyed Freeza. In the meantime spending years trying to reach that objective, he can't stand the fact that this objective he reached keeps getting canceled, so he fights to reach it again and does it, and then it's still taken away. Yeah, he develops an obsession from that point on, that keeps him going just like some people hold on to their dream objective for life, the classic carrot in front of the donkey that keeps getting away when you think you're getting close to it. He stops wanting to murder because it would be inconvenient, then gets used to the fact that it's nice not to murder and to have people around you to interact with. And it takes a whole arc to get there, since he starts by not even caring about saving the lives of his son and wife (meaning even though he has better things to do than kill, he doesn't value other lives anyway), then learns to be proud of his (future) son as a warrior (calling him his more-or-less equal and boasting about it to Cell), then discovers true attachement for the first time once his (future) son gets murdered, then in the next years treats his (present) son right because of all that and recognizes his attachement more and more to a point that ends up leaving him in a crisis of identity, which leaves him ceasing the opportunity to get back to his roots because this change is just too much and he feels like it has softened him down...

I'm not a much of a fan of Vegeta, but I can recognize that for DB level of depth, he's actually one of the characters for which his evolution is the most developed (and more shown through events over time rather than explicitely stated) and his psychology is the most coherent (simple and driven by an obsession is a valid psychology that isn't bad by definition), taking the time it needs to make him very gradually change. It is less sudden than Piccolo going from "conquering the world" to having forgotten about it in a year, and it uses the same kind of "afraid to lose the kid" trauma trigger to finally go through the main threshold of his evolution.

Now before saying I interpret the manga in what YOU call "the wrong way", are you humble enough to question your own interpretations for a bit or are you arrogant enough that you dare to call your interpretations correct by default and mine wrong by default?

At least, I'll leave this conversation having expressed my point of view while having read yours considering it as - of course - a valid and interesting interpretation even though I don't necessarily agree with it, and unlike you, not having the audacity to say that you're something along the lines of "just another deluded one who sees what he wants despite being completely wrong, can't believe such guys are out there" or something like that.

Don't know if that's what you aimed for, but that's the kind of thing that can rub a life-long fan that has followed the franchise in every aspect for almost 30 years the wrong way, just casually being lowered to "just another non-sensical guy who gets it in such wrong ways and doesn't know what he's talking about".

Pretty much done with this thread anyway, as I've seen lots of interesting replies (including yours) and said what I had to say.
So say what you want, or not, I won't check it out either way at this point. Got better things to do than to hold pointless grudges for what might have just been a one-time, clumsy outburst, so see you later in other threads, hoping I won't get the dismissive "another deluded one" treatment later on.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:27 pm

Cold Skin wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:52 pm ^ In my point of view, when you shoot someone and you're shocked that he's still alive, it does mean you intended to kill him.
And to me, she looks like she's shooting from anger, not fear, even saying "Damn little brat!!!", not "freaking monster" or anything like that.
Doesn't look scared to me, just lashing out in anger like Bulma usually vengefully does, and still recently.
Then, "Why isn't he dead?" - whether said in shock or not - clearly states what you intended to do to a KID whose words clearly show he misunderstands what you are.

Bulma could have willingly been a kid murderer, not in self-defense out of panic, shivering in fear, saying "don't come any closer" and shooting because being forced to at the last moment, but just because "damn little brat, take this!!".

Unforgivable in reality, no matter if a kid lifts your car and says you're both gonna fight now.
Yet guess what, the manga/anime lense is valid for gags as well as serious moments, which makes this moment perfectly fine, just like casually living with Vegeta - who is not making a mess - after all his murders is perfectly fine.
You just forgive all that in those fictions and magically forget the past, as the characters seem to do. You just forgive bad guys for attempted murders and actual murders they've done in the past when they become good guys in shonen-type anime/manga worlds, whether gag or not.

You wanna punish Vegeta like how he would be punished in reality? Fine, then also punish Bulma for trying to murder a kid instead of talking it through, Kame Sennin for his pervert touchings of girls without their consents, Goku too while you're at it since he endangers entire universes out of selfish desires and is litterally playing russian roulette with lives, Piccolo for beating up a kid on a daily basis, Beerus for exterminating people not when it is deserved but when he's unhappy with the way he's treated even when the exterminated people counts billions of innocents...

As for his "sudden" evolution...
Vegeta is forced to live on Earth, has a clear new objective of seeing the Super Saiyan and surpassing him because he always considered himself as the best Saiyan so far, even obsessing over being the Super Saiyan on Namek to a point that annoyed Freeza. In the meantime spending years trying to reach that objective, he can't stand the fact that this objective he reached keeps getting canceled, so he fights to reach it again and does it, and then it's still taken away. Yeah, he develops an obsession from that point on, that keeps him going just like some people hold on to their dream objective for life, the classic carrot in front of the donkey that keeps getting away when you think you're getting close to it. He stops wanting to murder because it would be inconvenient, then gets used to the fact that it's nice not to murder and to have people around you to interact with. And it takes a whole arc to get there, since he starts by not even caring about saving the lives of his son and wife (meaning even though he has better things to do than kill, he doesn't value other lives anyway), then learns to be proud of his (future) son as a warrior (calling him his more-or-less equal and boasting about it to Cell), then discovers true attachement for the first time once his (future) son gets murdered, then in the next years treats his (present) son right because of all that and recognizes his attachement more and more to a point that ends up leaving him in a crisis of identity, which leaves him ceasing the opportunity to get back to his roots because this change is just too much and he feels like it has softened him down...

I'm not a much of a fan of Vegeta, but I can recognize that for DB level of depth, he's actually one of the characters for which his evolution is the most developed (and more shown through events over time rather than explicitely stated) and his psychology is the most coherent (simple and driven by an obsession is a valid psychology that isn't bad by definition), taking the time it needs to make him very gradually change. It is less sudden than Piccolo going from "conquering the world" to having forgotten about it in a year, and it uses the same kind of "afraid to lose the kid" trauma trigger to finally go through the main threshold of his evolution.

Now before saying I interpret the manga in what YOU call "the wrong way", are you humble enough to question your own interpretations for a bit or are you arrogant enough that you dare to call your interpretations correct by default and mine wrong by default?

At least, I'll leave this conversation having expressed my point of view while having read yours considering it as - of course - a valid and interesting interpretation even though I don't necessarily agree with it, and unlike you, not having the audacity to say that you're something along the lines of "just another deluded one who sees what he wants despite being completely wrong, can't believe such guys are out there" or something like that.

Don't know if that's what you aimed for, but that's the kind of thing that can rub a life-long fan that has followed the franchise in every aspect for almost 30 years the wrong way, just casually being lowered to "just another non-sensical guy who gets it in such wrong ways and doesn't know what he's talking about".

Pretty much done with this thread anyway, as I've seen lots of interesting replies (including yours) and said what I had to say.
So say what you want, or not, I won't check it out either way at this point. Got better things to do than to hold pointless grudges for what might have just been a one-time, clumsy outburst, so see you later in other threads, hoping I won't get the dismissive "another deluded one" treatment later on.
um... but she didn't kill him.. so... yeah.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:23 pm

Sure during the Cell Games he doesn't do anything to repent, but let's review the Boo saga real quick.
Vegeta fully admits and accepts that he's going to Hell for selling his soul, and his family, and the world's safety just for one more fight with Goku on even footing. Then he gets his cheeks clapped by Fat Boo for being a dick about it.
Later after admitting his mistakes and agreeing to be a target dummy for Majin Boo, he gets his cheeks clapped EVEN HARDER just to buy Goku time to charge the Genki Dama. (When that didn't even guarantee a win.) So I think the Boo saga makes him pay his dues.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:03 pm

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:23 pm Sure during the Cell Games he doesn't do anything to repent, but let's review the Boo saga real quick.
Vegeta fully admits and accepts that he's going to Hell for selling his soul, and his family, and the world's safety just for one more fight with Goku on even footing. Then he gets his cheeks clapped by Fat Boo for being a dick about it.
Later after admitting his mistakes and agreeing to be a target dummy for Majin Boo, he gets his cheeks clapped EVEN HARDER just to buy Goku time to charge the Genki Dama. (When that didn't even guarantee a win.) So I think the Boo saga makes him pay his dues.
Totally disagree.
He was offered the chance, the gift actually, to come back to earth and help out.
Obviously he wouldn't decline that in order to stay in hell and do nothing but lose his soul and body.
I don't see him letting kid buu beat him up as something of importance. He has nothing to lose at this point. If he risks his life there he might have a chance at undoing what he caused. But if he doesn't, Buu will kill everyone and everything, so he either dies if he does nothing, or MAYBE doesn't die if he helps out. He basically got to help out. I see that more as an opportunity given on a silver platter to him than him "redeeming" himself
And also don't recall him "admiting his mistakes" . He stopped his fight with Goku after Goku reminded him twice to think about his own family. Then knocks Goku out and thinks about how much he hates that Goku died a hero, something HE is going to get to do now.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Brodes » Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:55 pm

BootyCheeksJohnson wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:23 pm Sure during the Cell Games he doesn't do anything to repent, but let's review the Boo saga real quick.
Vegeta fully admits and accepts that he's going to Hell for selling his soul, and his family, and the world's safety just for one more fight with Goku on even footing. Then he gets his cheeks clapped by Fat Boo for being a dick about it.
Later after admitting his mistakes and agreeing to be a target dummy for Majin Boo, he gets his cheeks clapped EVEN HARDER just to buy Goku time to charge the Genki Dama. (When that didn't even guarantee a win.) So I think the Boo saga makes him pay his dues.
Dies in a world where death is rarely final and then gets beaten up after being brought back. You think that's "paying dues" for genocide and other forms of mass murder? And then in the end he's brought back to life properly, continuing to avoid paying for any of his horrendous actions on any scale that matters.

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