Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:49 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:02 pm It's not about how powerful Vegeta is. It's about how the story portrays his character throughout the arc. We don't see Vegeta going around and doing these terrible things in the present. We only hear about it or get brief glimpses. The main characters don't experience it, the audience doesn't experience it, because the story itself doesn't revolve around any of it.

At most, Vegeta himself is portrayed as a cold and ruthless fighter, a lone wolf, going after what he wants while trying to survive. He wants ultimate power, yes, but he doesn't have it yet. It's only ambition, and even then we only hear about it after the Saiyan saga when he's no longer the primary antagonist.

The writing just isn't interested in building up Vegeta as a super big deal, or spending time on expressing how terrible he is. That's what sets him apart from the rest.
We don't see Vegeta going around and doing these terrible things in the present. We only hear about it or get brief glimpses.

I'll just quote someone from the comments above:
High-functioning sociopaths have a sense of logic that allows them to dial it back and even cooperate with others if it's in their best interest. But being capable of killing innocent people so you can achieve a selfish goal (in this case, becoming immortal so he could take the Space Hitler crown) is fucking evil

And, I honestly don't get what is it you are trying to get at, you seem to be throwing a new random fact in every reply you make that doesn't serve any purpose for your argument and just keeps you deviating from it.
"We don't see Vegeta going around and doing these terrible things in the present"
LOL Seriously what the hell is your point with that?
Yes, we don't see him doing it now, we saw him doing in his debut. He never paid consequences for that. And?


He wants ultimate power, yes, but he doesn't have it yet. It's only ambition
I already replied twice to this. Ignored.
I'll just ask it again,
Frieza didn't achieve his goal either, it was ambition. How is it different for Vegeta? Do you actually have a response for this?
Last edited by dva_raza on Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:17 pm

So you know Vegeta enjoyed killing those people in front of Goku? Because you can interpret the text like some sort of prophet? Cool.
He didn't interpret anything, he is mentioning Vegeta was proudly smiling while doing it. Smiling expresses happyness or approval.
And all art is open to interpretation. What are these attacks?
You seem confused.
Art being subjective is true, and also irrelevant right now, as we are not talking about subjective interpretations, we are talking about the factual aspects that are shown within the story.
It's like saying you don't believe Vegeta is named Vegeta because that is not YOUR interpretation. You don't get to say that. We are not talking about the artistic aspect, we are talking about facts within the story, those are not subjective ideas, they are objective truths, which is what we are basing our discussion on. Which brings me to,
I think you can't stand to let another person, whether they're directly arguing your point or not, get the last word in simply due to them having a differing ideology. Even a half-agreement would be no good
I'm not sure, what is your argument or what is it you are opposing to?
Just to clarify, the subject of discussion is about how Vegeta was never held responsable or punished in some way for almost 30 years of evil acts. It's an observation, again, based on fact. Vegeta has never paid.
Now some people disagree with this saying that he doesn't have to because he was a lesser villain like Piccolo or Hit, not like Frieza. It was explained how that is simply not true, and this is yet to be replied to. For example, somebody is insisting Vegeta isn't on the same level as a vilain like Frieza or Cell. I asked several times already: how is Vegeta not as evil as Frieza when he was just as cruel and sadistic, killed probably as many people Frieza did, was joyful and proud about it, and had literally the same long term goal?
I have not yet recieved an answer for this.
Regardless. Again, what is exactly that you actually disagree with?

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:31 pm

We interpret motivations differently and what even constitutes as evil.
This is nonsensical
Who is talking about "motivations"? We are talking about his actions

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:09 pm

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:07 pm
nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:16 am
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:42 am

Too much digging. If your point is Vegeta was simply a product of his culture, no. Vegeta showed to be more evil than any sayijan. Certainly lacking any sort of compassion and honor for his own people.
Yes, Vegeta is a product of his culture. And he is useful for it, that's why Emma kept him around, and even Frieza wants him again after being betrayed by him. I am of the rare bunch that agrees he is the most evil and brutal Saiyan, bar none. But it doesnt matter if he's more evil than them. He still proved himself the best soldier of them. He's just useful to whoever wants him. Frieza and Cell and other Saiyans arent useful. If you want him to be punished because of his crimes,that's you digging too much for it. Real life reward and punishment standards is screwy that way. Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful.


There literally is NO digging in my argument, none. I said Vegeta deserves to be punished just like all of the other main villains in DBZ were. That's it. It's not a complicated concept. The only digging being made here is the one done by this mental gymnastics from people who are trying to argue that Vegeta wasn't actually evil like the other villains so that's why he shouldn't be? Saying things like "he wasn't actually evil like Frieza" or he was a "product of his culture" or that he "wanted the dragon balls so he's not that evil for killing the namekians?" :wtf:

And now to add your narrative, like... what?
Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful
You are saying that because Vegeta is useful then it's fair he isn't held accountable for his murders like any other villain was?
..Seriously...what?
I said YES, I agree that Vegeta is more evil than other villains. But YES, he's useful enough for other characters , and even people, to apply certain double standards with him in judging his crimes. I never said it was fair or he was less evil. I dont agree with MrV and i think others have debunked "Vegeta is less evil" enough. If you find something wrong with it then you just dont agree with Vegeta's character and i dont know what to say more. Maybe Vegeta isnt the kind of character you look for when you look for FAIR redemption stories.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:24 am

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:09 pm
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:07 pm
nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:16 am

Yes, Vegeta is a product of his culture. And he is useful for it, that's why Emma kept him around, and even Frieza wants him again after being betrayed by him. I am of the rare bunch that agrees he is the most evil and brutal Saiyan, bar none. But it doesnt matter if he's more evil than them. He still proved himself the best soldier of them. He's just useful to whoever wants him. Frieza and Cell and other Saiyans arent useful. If you want him to be punished because of his crimes,that's you digging too much for it. Real life reward and punishment standards is screwy that way. Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful.


There literally is NO digging in my argument, none. I said Vegeta deserves to be punished just like all of the other main villains in DBZ were. That's it. It's not a complicated concept. The only digging being made here is the one done by this mental gymnastics from people who are trying to argue that Vegeta wasn't actually evil like the other villains so that's why he shouldn't be? Saying things like "he wasn't actually evil like Frieza" or he was a "product of his culture" or that he "wanted the dragon balls so he's not that evil for killing the namekians?" :wtf:

And now to add your narrative, like... what?
Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful
You are saying that because Vegeta is useful then it's fair he isn't held accountable for his murders like any other villain was?
..Seriously...what?
I said YES, I agree that Vegeta is more evil than other villains. But YES, he's useful enough for other characters , and even people, to apply certain double standards with him in judging his crimes. I never said it was fair or he was less evil. I dont agree with MrV and i think others have debunked "Vegeta is less evil" enough. If you find something wrong with it then you just dont agree with Vegeta's character and i dont know what to say more. Maybe Vegeta isnt the kind of character you look for when you look for FAIR redemption stories.

. I never said it was fair or he was less evil.

Sorry I guess I misunderstood the part where you said "But it doesnt matter if he's more evil than them.". Kinda sounded like you were saying "it doesn't matter". Meaning it's a fair reason for him to be treated differently.

Anyway, I agree he is useful and he is held to different standarts. The fact that that is unfair is precisely what the discussion is about.

I don't have a problem wth Vegeta's character but with the argument that he is somehow mistreated being spread by his fans online (fanboys, not fans), that was my motivation for engaging in this discussion, it seems crazy to me that a character who gets forgiven for everything and handed everything after everything he did is getting so much victimization.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:11 am

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:49 pm "We don't see Vegeta going around and doing these terrible things in the present"
LOL Seriously what the hell is your point with that?
Yes, we don't see him doing it now, we saw him doing in his debut. He never paid consequences for that. And?
I'm not talking about Super-related material. I meant the present of the Saiyan arc. We don't see Vegeta doing all of those things during the story itself, but only hear about it briefly. The audience doesn't experience any of Vegeta's large-scale terror because it's not written into the story. Unlike with the other villains whose stories make the effort to explore the scale and magnitude of their evil during the present.

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:49 pm He wants ultimate power, yes, but he doesn't have it yet. It's only ambition
I already replied twice to this. Ignored.
I'll just ask it again,
Frieza didn't achieve his goal either, it was ambition. How is it different for Vegeta? Do you actually have a response for this?
Freeza was already the ultimate evil and supreme lord of the universe during his saga. Vegeta only *wanted* what Freeza had. He didn't have it yet. The immortality was just the means for Vegeta to get it. So while he did have the ambition, he wasn't actually the big dreaded supervillain yet.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:35 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 pm The closest we get to Vegeta “suffering” is Movie 12 where he’s lamenting on how whether he has a body or not his existence is still a hell or something to that effect.. He’s not sure how he got his body back and he knows it’s only temporary and once Janemba is defeated he fades back into nothingness, I think it’s beautifully done.
Wow I just saw it, had never seen it before. Too bad it's not canon cause that concept would've been great

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:54 am

dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:35 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 pm The closest we get to Vegeta “suffering” is Movie 12 where he’s lamenting on how whether he has a body or not his existence is still a hell or something to that effect.. He’s not sure how he got his body back and he knows it’s only temporary and once Janemba is defeated he fades back into nothingness, I think it’s beautifully done.
Wow I just saw it, had never seen it before. Too bad it's not canon cause that concept would've been great
I think an arc like this could still be brought into the current continuity. Vegeta dealing with still going to Hell for the atrocities he committed, even after the heroic things he's been doing lately (and seeing him accept it), could be a really cool and poignant arc/conclusion for his character. I'd love to see it still happen down the road, if Dragon Ball is showing no signs of stopping (or if it goes the route of a GT to function as the end of the series).
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:03 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:54 am I think an arc like this could still be brought into the current continuity. Vegeta dealing with still going to Hell for the atrocities he committed, even after the heroic things he's been doing lately (and seeing him accept it), could be a really cool and poignant arc/conclusion for his character. I'd love to see it still happen down the road, if Dragon Ball is showing no signs of stopping (or if it goes the route of a GT to function as the end of the series).
I agree. If they wanted to make it absolutely final like GT was, Vegeta going to Hell would be an interesting angle. Maybe it would be like the opposite of GT's ending, instead of Goku saying goodbye and ascending to whatever existence, Vegeta says goodbye and descends into Hell.

Or maybe instead of Piccolo sacrificing himself and going to Hell in GT, it should have been Vegeta. Although, I do think there is something enjoyable and interesting about having a guy that doesn't really belong in Hell end up there while the guy who actually belongs in Hell is living a happy and normal life. Kind of fitting for DB.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm

It’s been addressed several times in the series proper though, I don’t think that’s something we need to see.

Future Bulma mentions it to Future Trunks about his Vegeta, Piccolo confirms to main Vegeta that he’s hell bound after he dies against Boo and He accepts it, then it’s touched on again in Movie 12 where we actually do kinda see it play out.

Nothing in the current material is suggesting that Vegeta is getting a get outta jail free card, so while yes he’s relaxing at capsule Corp Eating, training and banging Bulma to his hearts content I think he’s more than okay with going to hell. I don’t think we need to see him burning on a pillar with bats chewing off his balls. He just got lucky when Porunga brought him back.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:23 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm It’s been addressed several times in the series proper though, I don’t think that’s something we need to see.

Future Bulma mentions it to Future Trunks about his Vegeta, Piccolo confirms to main Vegeta that he’s hell bound after he dies against Boo and He accepts it, then it’s touched on again in Movie 12 where we actually do kinda see it play out.

Nothing in the current material is suggesting that Vegeta is getting a get outta jail free card, so while yes he’s relaxing at capsule Corp Eating, training and banging Bulma to his hearts content I think he’s more than okay with going to hell. I don’t we need to seen him burning on a pillar with bats chewing off his balls. He just got lucky when Porunga brought him back.
That wasn't the type of imagery I had in mind, but sure :thumbup:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:35 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm I don’t think we need to seen him burning on a pillar with bats chewing off his balls. He just got lucky when Porunga brought him back.
We don't necessarily need to see the ball-chewing, I agree, but I think if there were some kind of grand finale to the series then it might be worth it to see Vegeta on his way to Hell. Maybe even return reincarnated at some point.

Yeah, Vegeta was lucky he got wished back by Porunga, but it wasn't just luck. While he may have been bound for Hell, Vegeta was still a good guy by that point.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Goku da Silva » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:44 pm

Toriyama doesn't realy like him, he said in a interview he kept him because he was useful :lol:

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:19 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm It’s been addressed several times in the series proper though, I don’t think that’s something we need to see.

Future Bulma mentions it to Future Trunks about his Vegeta, Piccolo confirms to main Vegeta that he’s hell bound after he dies against Boo and He accepts it, then it’s touched on again in Movie 12 where we actually do kinda see it play out.

Nothing in the current material is suggesting that Vegeta is getting a get outta jail free card, so while yes he’s relaxing at capsule Corp Eating, training and banging Bulma to his hearts content I think he’s more than okay with going to hell. I don’t think we need to see him burning on a pillar with bats chewing off his balls. He just got lucky when Porunga brought him back.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by damn » Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:55 pm

Thisonedinosaur wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:38 pm Seriously this happens on both the Cell and Buu arcs.

He spends the whole Cell arc either being apathetic or beating up Future Trunks.

He punches him when he Trunks tries to stop him from charging his death,tells him to his face he would not care if his wife and kid died(and he backs it up by even looking their way when DrGero attacked them)then spends 1 year in the Rosat ignoring Trunks(1 whole year ignoring his son in a dimension with just the 2 of them)then not only lets Cell become Perfect but sides with him and beats up Trunks(AGAIN).

Of course that leads to his son getting killed later and apparently he cares about him now?

Then once Goku is killed,he swears to never fight again........

Or so you thought,he seems to come out of this supposed 'retirement' to beat up an out of shape teenager(since he did not know Goku would enter yet).Thats the closet thing to a good person moment Vegeta had before his death against Buu,being a petty person.

Then a few events later he is mind controlled by Babidi.....expect not really he willingly did so he could get a power boost so he could get even with a dead person?Of course this carrot had much more important business than his mid life crisis so to convince him Vegeta kills a bunch of people by throwing a ki blast on the same stadium his wife was on.

Then an offscreen fight later after helping Buu revive and he suddenly realises he cares about his family(AGAIN).

If him doing an 180 after spending whole arcs being Freeza2 was not enough,its also amazing how much the narrative bends over so nobody has an issue with him,even those characters that should.

After reviving and being teleported to Earth,he brags about how he killed those Namekians that did not revive and Bulma invites him to stay on her house along with the other Namekians.

Piccolo after fusing with Kami,not only does nothing to kill him but he even warns him about Cell so he would not get killed.....

Yeah the same guy that promised to kill him after Freeza,the same guy that would not even help him against Freeza and 18 because he couldn't care less about him,now suddenly cares about his well being.

Krillin sees him help Cell absorb 18,beat up Trunks,yet he still carries to safety after Perfect Cell knocked him out.The same Krillin that was looking for a chance to betray him in the previous arc.

As for Future Trunks,no matter how much you can drag the excuse Daddy Issues on him,you still cannot justify him caring about a father he never met before and treats him like absolute garbage,even his mother told him Vegeta would go to hell.

Speaking of Bulma he not only banged him but was fine with him beating up Trunks,helping the main villain twice and killing a lot of people before her eyes.And from how she interacted with Trunks,it was clear he cared about him but nope nothing.

Nobody has an issue with him but Tien,the one person thats so irrelevant his opinion does not matter sadly.

But by far whats most impressive is how he suffers no consequences for any of these things,and no him getting his ass kicked does not count since everybody gets their ass kicked,Vegeta even choosed how to die the 2nd time.

He spents like a few hours in hell at most while watching those that are alive somehow so its even doubtfull if he even went to hell begin with and he is declared a good person a few hours after he killed people with a smile on his face.

He spends the whole time being this unapologetic self serving manchild who kills people either for fun and for the pettiest reasons and the narrative rewards him for it.

But hey why have Vegeta have actual character development when you pull a 'He cares for his family' excuse while using Piccolo as your mouthpiece saying how he changed(seriously Toriyama did this in both the Cell and Buu arcs).
Tori lost his marbles after Freeza saga and the series started to suck big time.
Vegeta never should have been made a "good guy" to begin with since that just ruined his character.
Tenshinhan was never truly a bad guy just influenced negatively by Tsuru-sennin and Tao Pai Pai. Yamcha was always a bunch of hot air(although early on he was a little bit cunning). Piccolo was a villain but he(or is his dad) was the evil part of the Nameless Namekian and he was needed to be alive so that the Dragon Balls don't disappear/Kami doesn't die so that's why he wasn't killed off. But with Vegeta he was a pure villain like Raditz or Nappa and he simply continued to be a character because of his popularity.

As for the Boo Saga it's implied that over the years he warmed up to Bulma and Trunks(he even is seen training with Trunks). But of course he can't let go of his obsession with Goku. That obsession started in the Android/Cell Saga when Tori turned him into the side of the good guys and ruined his character forever by making this obsession his sole trait and flanderizing the hell out of him.
Before that he wasn't as obsessed with surpassing Goku and wasn't this whole "Muh Saiyajin Prince Pride" character, he was more resourceful and even was willing to learn the techniques of the Earthlings(such as concealing his power level in Namek so he goes by undetected or tricking his adversaries into underestimating him).
His original goal of getting the Dragon Balls so he can battle forever(Saiyajin Saga) and beat Freeza(Freeza saga) was also dropped entirely for no reason at all.

And yes Bulma's character was completely assassinated as was Kuririn's in the same damn arc too.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:03 am

damn wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:55 pm
Thisonedinosaur wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:38 pm Seriously this happens on both the Cell and Buu arcs.

He spends the whole Cell arc either being apathetic or beating up Future Trunks.

He punches him when he Trunks tries to stop him from charging his death,tells him to his face he would not care if his wife and kid died(and he backs it up by even looking their way when DrGero attacked them)then spends 1 year in the Rosat ignoring Trunks(1 whole year ignoring his son in a dimension with just the 2 of them)then not only lets Cell become Perfect but sides with him and beats up Trunks(AGAIN).

Of course that leads to his son getting killed later and apparently he cares about him now?

Then once Goku is killed,he swears to never fight again........

Or so you thought,he seems to come out of this supposed 'retirement' to beat up an out of shape teenager(since he did not know Goku would enter yet).Thats the closet thing to a good person moment Vegeta had before his death against Buu,being a petty person.

Then a few events later he is mind controlled by Babidi.....expect not really he willingly did so he could get a power boost so he could get even with a dead person?Of course this carrot had much more important business than his mid life crisis so to convince him Vegeta kills a bunch of people by throwing a ki blast on the same stadium his wife was on.

Then an offscreen fight later after helping Buu revive and he suddenly realises he cares about his family(AGAIN).

If him doing an 180 after spending whole arcs being Freeza2 was not enough,its also amazing how much the narrative bends over so nobody has an issue with him,even those characters that should.

After reviving and being teleported to Earth,he brags about how he killed those Namekians that did not revive and Bulma invites him to stay on her house along with the other Namekians.

Piccolo after fusing with Kami,not only does nothing to kill him but he even warns him about Cell so he would not get killed.....

Yeah the same guy that promised to kill him after Freeza,the same guy that would not even help him against Freeza and 18 because he couldn't care less about him,now suddenly cares about his well being.

Krillin sees him help Cell absorb 18,beat up Trunks,yet he still carries to safety after Perfect Cell knocked him out.The same Krillin that was looking for a chance to betray him in the previous arc.

As for Future Trunks,no matter how much you can drag the excuse Daddy Issues on him,you still cannot justify him caring about a father he never met before and treats him like absolute garbage,even his mother told him Vegeta would go to hell.

Speaking of Bulma he not only banged him but was fine with him beating up Trunks,helping the main villain twice and killing a lot of people before her eyes.And from how she interacted with Trunks,it was clear he cared about him but nope nothing.

Nobody has an issue with him but Tien,the one person thats so irrelevant his opinion does not matter sadly.

But by far whats most impressive is how he suffers no consequences for any of these things,and no him getting his ass kicked does not count since everybody gets their ass kicked,Vegeta even choosed how to die the 2nd time.

He spents like a few hours in hell at most while watching those that are alive somehow so its even doubtfull if he even went to hell begin with and he is declared a good person a few hours after he killed people with a smile on his face.

He spends the whole time being this unapologetic self serving manchild who kills people either for fun and for the pettiest reasons and the narrative rewards him for it.

But hey why have Vegeta have actual character development when you pull a 'He cares for his family' excuse while using Piccolo as your mouthpiece saying how he changed(seriously Toriyama did this in both the Cell and Buu arcs).
Tori lost his marbles after Freeza saga and the series started to suck big time.
Vegeta never should have been made a "good guy" to begin with since that just ruined his character.
Tenshinhan was never truly a bad guy just influenced negatively by Tsuru-sennin and Tao Pai Pai. Yamcha was always a bunch of hot air(although early on he was a little bit cunning). Piccolo was a villain but he(or is his dad) was the evil part of the Nameless Namekian and he was needed to be alive so that the Dragon Balls don't disappear/Kami doesn't die so that's why he wasn't killed off. But with Vegeta he was a pure villain like Raditz or Nappa and he simply continued to be a character because of his popularity.

As for the Boo Saga it's implied that over the years he warmed up to Bulma and Trunks(he even is seen training with Trunks). But of course he can't let go of his obsession with Goku. That obsession started in the Android/Cell Saga when Tori turned him into the side of the good guys and ruined his character forever by making this obsession his sole trait and flanderizing the hell out of him.
Before that he wasn't as obsessed with surpassing Goku and wasn't this whole "Muh Saiyajin Prince Pride" character, he was more resourceful and even was willing to learn the techniques of the Earthlings(such as concealing his power level in Namek so he goes by undetected or tricking his adversaries into underestimating him).
His original goal of getting the Dragon Balls so he can battle forever(Saiyajin Saga) and beat Freeza(Freeza saga) was also dropped entirely for no reason at all.

And yes Bulma's character was completely assassinated as was Kuririn's in the same damn arc too.

You replying to that Original Post just reminded me of how well those points were expressed. I had forgotten.

"the narrative bends over so nobody has an issue with him"
I think this encapsules the main issue. Yes, Vegeta was evil and he didn't try that much to pretend he wasn't. What is bothering to some is that he has to be accepted as this antihero who has had a redemption when he never did. He just simply got indulged and rewarded by everyone around him over and over until he kinda calmed himself, and many people idolize him for this whole character development narrative when he really was literally forced into the "not so bad guy" status with no much justification.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Nagyzöld » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:36 am

So a Vegeta bashing topic?

I would say he's not the only nor the first character to get away without real consequences. But it's mainly because his typology is over romanticized, at least in shonens. He's not the crap sociopathic being he'd be in real life, he's the "jerk with a heart of gold". He's not bad, he's just misunderstood. Somehow every character magically knows he's good somewhere deep inside. It took him to shed a few tears on Namek to win Goku. It took whatever for Bulma to completely brush off the utter disinterest and malice he had for her and their baby.

We'd think his character is very deep and multi-dimensional where it's not. We know Dragon Ball is not the media to offer very deep and relatable characters. You get what you see and whenever an 180 happens it must be because the plot demands to. Like, they couldn't keep Vegeta as the "bad but good but actually bad" guy because at some point it didn't make sense anymore that the crew keeps winning against zillion times stronger enemies when Vegeta keeps getting in the way all the time lol.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Cold Skin » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:30 am

To me, it's simply the anime logic or anime "suspension of disbelief" we naturally have, which is way further from reality than most live-action works.

When I think about his character, it's through an anime lense, so I picture him as being the falsely-grumpy uncle of the family. Nothing worse.
It's because I have my moral code adjusted to the same levels as the characters, as soon as somebody becomes an ally, everything is forgiven.

In reality, having a guy who did what he did hanging around, the "how you can stand to be around that guy completely beats me" from Ten Shin Han would be more true, and I wouldn't be able to think "oh, he coldly murdered entire people on various worlds and even tried to wipe out the population of the Earth, but he's okay now". I would never feel okay with a murderer, even if he "has stopped". It's still a murderer.

What happens in anime is just 100 times more forgivable than it would be in reality. The "oh, he's not so bad, he's kinda cool in the end when you get to know him" comes easy. It's the case with quite a bunch of anime characters who are more than welcome by the team of heroes and by the fans after having slaughtered people in the past, and never actually pay for it except for a bit of remorse and occasional "I can never be redeemed" speeches that don't seem to negatively impact their daily lives.

During the Moro arc, I was even surprised that what Vegeta had done to the Nameks in the past was brought up, because it registered as totally natural for me that it wouldn't be taken into account since "he has become a hero since then", so why wouldn't the Nameks welcome him with open arms? Nothing seemed abnormal in their way of welcoming him along with Goku, without resentment. Had Vegeta himself not brought up his past actions, I wouldn't even have thought about them myself.

Other characters benefit from the anime logic, may I remind you that Bulma is the kind of girl that, as a teenager, angrily shoots a little kid on the road and then complains that he's somehow still alive when she wanted him dead. What would you think in reality about a high school girl who tries to kill a kid with her gun in a fit of rage and would just say "good riddance" if she succeeded. Would you feel comfortable with her once she's adult even if she "has gotten better" since then? But through an anime lense, she's totally fine and we consider her as such. Throw me in the DB world, and I'll hang around with Vegeta and Bulma just like with the rest of the cast.

Same goes for sexy stuff, not just violence: in reality, go to visit an elderly in your family with your wife or girlfriend, and if he spends his time trying to touch her boobs or her butt and trying to sneak-peek at her when she's in the toilet, things are not going to go well and there will hardly be a "see you next time, it's always nice to visit you" in the cards.
But in anime world, it's okay to keep seeing him in various events as if nothing happened despite knowing what he's like.

If someday, Freeza joins the Dragon Team, I myself would surely be like "oh, he's a cool nice guy actually, he just had a bad phase when he was evil in the past, but he wasn't that evil after all, give him a break, he's changed".
Which I wouldn't accept that easily for similar characters in live-action series/movies, and wouldn't accept at all in reality.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:58 am

I mean...that's life. Some people get what they deserve. Other people...just don't. Some of those guys do a 180 and live like good people, and...then some keep being bad.

Kinda like Josef Mengele vs Shirō Ishii. Both generals in the Axis armies, both mad scientists, and both responsible for suffering beyond what we can possibly fathom. Yet, one spends the rest of their life getting hunted down, the other...gets political immunity from every last one of their crimes.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by damn » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:57 pm

dva_raza wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:03 am You replying to that Original Post just reminded me of how well those points were expressed. I had forgotten.

"the narrative bends over so nobody has an issue with him"
I think this encapsules the main issue. Yes, Vegeta was evil and he didn't try that much to pretend he wasn't. What is bothering to some is that he has to be accepted as this antihero who has had a redemption when he never did. He just simply got indulged and rewarded by everyone around him over and over until he kinda calmed himself, and many people idolize him for this whole character development narrative when he really was literally forced into the "not so bad guy" status with no much justification.
Well, he technically was an antihero in Freeza saga but we have to contextualize what antihero really means. Antihero doesn't always mean that somebody is a good guy, Vegeta was just adaptive in Namek and that's what made his character interesting. He was even willing to cooperate with the good guys if need be like when he cooperated with Gohan and Kuririn and even saved Gohan's life from Guldo once because he thought he was needed(in hindsight you can interpret this as Vegeta being a good guy I guess).
In Vegeta's earliest appearances Nappa suggests that they could have a bunch of kids with humans to create a new Saiyajin Empire after Vegeta notes that Gohan is strong due to an compatibility between Saiyajins and Earthlings(something which he somehow forgets by the start of Boo saga when he's surprised Trunks and Goten can turn SSJ so soon) and Vegeta rejects the notion saying that he doesn't want an army of ingrate brats and that they could turn out to be too powerful.
It's really a shame about what happened to Vegeta who was once one of the more calculative and smarter characters being turned into a dumb meathead with an inferiority complex for the sake of plot convenience(and I guess because AT never liked him).

One interesting continuity error in that arc in particular is that Vegeta actually says he will fight on the Tenkaichi Budokai BEFORE knowing that Goku will participate on it and then after that he's suddenly all like "The only reason I entered this competition was to fight you Kakarot!" for plot convenience. AT just made up the story literally one week at a time, if you try to find logical consistency you will find yourself feeling like you swallowed crazy pills. In the same arc nobody on Earth(except the announcer) seems to remember Goku or any of the other Martial Artists even though it's only been like 20 years.

I guess people like the fact that he softened and that with him sacrificing himself and then even swallowing his pride to ask the people of the Earth for help against Boo and then the thumbs up scene he accepted his new self. People see this as redemption but I wouldn't use that term.
Vegeta went through 3 different personalities
1. Evil/ruthless/adaptive/calculative
2. "REEEEEEEEEE KAKAROT YOU CAN'T BE STRONGER THAN ME"
3. "Kakarot, you're the coolest guy :thumbup: "

People like the 3rd one. A lot of western fans in particular like it because a bunch of them grew up with the Cell and Boo arcs first so their default thoughts of Vegeta aren't his Saiyajin/Freeza arc incarnations. That is why people just gloss over the forced nonsensical change in Vegeta's character from Freeza ---> Android/Cell arc.

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