Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:17 am

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 am That's not necessarily the same as being evil. It just means that he's capable of committing evil acts.

Slaughtering the village on Namek was about getting the Dragon Ball. That was his only purpose. He certainly enjoyed himself while doing it, and you could argue that makes him evil. But that's different from someone like Piccolo Daimao plunging the world into terror as a goal in and of itself. That's much more evil and twisted in my mind. Vegeta just wants to get the job done. At worst, he has some fun while doing it, like on Namek. At best, he just doesn't care, like when he destroys planets. Does being cold-hearted and apathetic make someone evil, or does it just make them more likely to do evil?
If we're talking about the philosophical implications of evil, whether or not a person's heartful intentions truly matter in their decisions, etc. that could be a good discussion to have. But pre-redemption Vegeta definitely does not fall into any justifiable category. You're trying to split hairs here when there are none to split. You say he did evil acts, but may not have enjoyed it, which was proven completely wrong, then you say he at least had pragmatic goals, but like DP Piccolo has been patiently arguing, you're ignoring the fact that Vegeta's ultimate aim beyond getting that Dragon Ball was to make himself immortal so he could more effectively continue killing and terrorising throughout the universe forever with no one to stop him. He was no better than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't much better than Freeza who had the exact same goal of eternal life.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Yuji » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:23 am

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 am
Why should he be punished?
Because all the other villains were
Debatable. Tenshinhan, Piccolo, the artificial Humans, Boo and in the modern series, Beerus, Hit all escaped "punishment." They got beat down and humbled, same thing happened to Vegeta.

If you think none of them are akin to Vegeta, then you can look at Freeza who in the modern continuity is running around without a care in the world. Yes, he suffered in Hell for ages but that's not very different from Vegeta himself dying twice and getting his spine broken, among other things while he was alive.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:06 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:23 am
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 am
Why should he be punished?
Because all the other villains were
Debatable. Tenshinhan, Piccolo, the artificial Humans, Boo and in the modern series, Beerus, Hit all escaped "punishment." They got beat down and humbled, same thing happened to Vegeta.

Tenshinhan was more of an arrogant dick than an out and out villain. Despite boasting about wanting to be an assassin he never did more than maim his opponents (which yes is awful but not the level of evil of actual Dragon Ball villains) and con idiots in anime filler.


Piccolo (the junior incarnation) never really had a chance to do anything evil. The worst thing he did was wreck the tournament grounds and try to kill Goku. He never got a chance to kill or hurt innocents. He ended up being more of an asshole than a villain until his redemption. He didn’t even try to do anything bad in the 5 year interim between Goku winning the Tenkaichi Budokai and Raditz arriving.


The Artificial Humans also never really did anything horrendously evil in the main timeline. Vegeta was the one who picked a fight. So the worst they actually did was steal a van, 18 stole some clothes, and caused some mischief on the road to Son Goku’s. They were more delinquents with power than evil genocidal war lords like a certain troll doll. The actually evil Artificial Humans were killed by Future Trunks.

Boo ( the fat one) didn’t realize what he was doing was wrong and when he was told it was bad he stopped. Basically a child being taught empathy.


Beerus is portrayed as doing his job. Same with Hit.



Vegeta’s level of evil is on par with the actual villains Daimao, Freeza, Cell and Pure Boo. Who were all punished. Even though Freeza is now out and about because Super had to …Super.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:06 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:23 am
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 am
Why should he be punished?
Because all the other villains were
Debatable. Tenshinhan, Piccolo, the artificial Humans, Boo and in the modern series, Beerus, Hit all escaped "punishment." They got beat down and humbled, same thing happened to Vegeta.

Tenshinhan was more of an arrogant dick than an out and out villain. Despite boasting about wanting to be an assassin he never did more than maim his opponents (which yes is awful but not the level of evil of actual Dragon Ball villains) and con idiots in anime filler.


Piccolo (the junior incarnation) never really had a chance to do anything evil. The worst thing he did was wreck the tournament grounds and try to kill Goku. He never got a chance to kill or hurt innocents. He ended up being more of an asshole than a villain until his redemption. He didn’t even try to do anything bad in the 5 year interim between Goku winning the Tenkaichi Budokai and Raditz arriving.


The Artificial Humans also never really did anything horrendously evil in the main timeline. Vegeta was the one who picked a fight. So the worst they actually did was steal a van, 18 stole some clothes, and caused some mischief on the road to Son Goku’s. They were more delinquents with power than evil genocidal war lords like a certain troll doll. The actually evil Artificial Humans were killed by Future Trunks.

Boo ( the fat one) didn’t realize what he was doing was wrong and when he was told it was bad he stopped. Basically a child being taught empathy.


Beerus is portrayed as doing his job. Same with Hit.



Vegeta’s level of evil is on par with the actual villains Daimao, Freeza, Cell and Pure Boo. Who were all punished. Even though Freeza is now out and about because Super had to …Super.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Yuji » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:08 am

Piccolo is essentially the same person as Daimao. Vegeta's atonement is also easier to digest because we never actually see him on screen murdering people deliberately outside of the Namekian village.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:13 am

Yuji wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:08 am Piccolo is essentially the same person as Daimao.
He’s his reincarnation so they’re the same being but they’re still treated as separate. It was noted several times that Piccolo wasn’t as evil as Daimao.
Vegeta's atonement is also easier to digest because we never actually see him on screen murdering people deliberately outside of the Namekian village.
And the planet of Arlia right after they thanked him if we count anime exclusive material. And even in the manga we see the aftermath of one of his and Nappa’s raids the very first time we meet him.


Regardless we know for a fact that he destroyed multiple planets and that his plans was to usurp Freeza as emperor of the universe.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:02 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:08 am Piccolo is essentially the same person as Daimao. Vegeta's atonement is also easier to digest because we never actually see him on screen murdering people deliberately outside of the Namekian village.
As Masenko said, both Piccolos are the same person, but the reincarnation had a different personality from the very outset. Sure, Jr. grew up hating Goku as he had his "father's" memories of being killed by him, but when he actually met Goku, Goku wasn't the monster he had gone three years believing he was. We never witnessed the reincarnation doing anything outright evil, and in the end he proved more disgruntled than anything. You mentioned Tien earlier. He did really bad things, sure, but moreso directly being led along the wrong path. He wasn't Vegeta. Vegeta may be a product of his environment, but he wasn't a victim like the old dub paints him to be. It's made clear he's an evil dude in pursuit on his own self-interests and power from the very outset, and he obviously doesn't care about his people, or else he wouldn't have killed his lackey.

Also, you mention Vegeta not killing anyone onscreen since. Sure, we didn't see the bodies incinerate at the 25th, but we still saw him blow up the stadium without a care. That wasn't just Vegeta under Babidi's spell or Vegeta confused, that way Vegeta making a conscious decision to kill half of the stadium, and he was smiling about it.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:12 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:17 am
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 am That's not necessarily the same as being evil. It just means that he's capable of committing evil acts.

Slaughtering the village on Namek was about getting the Dragon Ball. That was his only purpose. He certainly enjoyed himself while doing it, and you could argue that makes him evil. But that's different from someone like Piccolo Daimao plunging the world into terror as a goal in and of itself. That's much more evil and twisted in my mind. Vegeta just wants to get the job done. At worst, he has some fun while doing it, like on Namek. At best, he just doesn't care, like when he destroys planets. Does being cold-hearted and apathetic make someone evil, or does it just make them more likely to do evil?
If we're talking about the philosophical implications of evil, whether or not a person's heartful intentions truly matter in their decisions, etc. that could be a good discussion to have. But pre-redemption Vegeta definitely does not fall into any justifiable category. You're trying to split hairs here when there are none to split. You say he did evil acts, but may not have enjoyed it, which was proven completely wrong, then you say he at least had pragmatic goals, but like DP Piccolo has been patiently arguing, you're ignoring the fact that Vegeta's ultimate aim beyond getting that Dragon Ball was to make himself immortal so he could more effectively continue killing and terrorising throughout the universe forever with no one to stop him. He was no better than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't much better than Freeza who had the exact same goal of eternal life.
Exactly. I don't disagree that the philosophical implications of evil would be an interesting topic, but that's not what's being debated here. Vegeta's heart not being in it (which we know isn't true) doesn't change that his actions were not less atrocious than the other "big" villains of the series. It's also still true he didn't suffer legitimate consequences. At the end of the day though, I'm still OK with that. I like Vegeta as a character, and it's Dragon Ball. At the same time, I wouldn't be against an arc that had him go to hell. :lol:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:21 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:02 pm ...
Also, you mention Vegeta not killing anyone onscreen since. Sure, we didn't see the bodies incinerate at the 25th, but we still saw him blow up the stadium without a care. That wasn't just Vegeta under Babidi's spell or Vegeta confused, that way Vegeta making a conscious decision to kill half of the stadium, and he was smiling about it.
I think this is a prime example of why this argument is even happening. We're missing subtext and characterization.

Vegeta killed those people and smiled. Why did he do that? Really. Why? He wanted his fight with Goku as he probably saw it as his last chance and yeah that's a shitty thing to do but Vegeta isn't stupid. He knew the people would be revived.

He could've killed millions anytime he wanted but he chose them at that moment. He's just not this evil guy.

It's kinda like DBS Vegeta in the Moro arc. He's "acting like his old self" but he knows deep down that's not who he is. It's explicitly shown.

Is him acting evil towards Granola as he tries to kill him and even involving the population still "evil" Vegeta? I'd argue no as he shows he can't keep up the act. It's an act.

It's all an act. Again. He's selfish and does despicable shit, but in his heart he's just not the Villain he tries to portray.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:25 pm

Even if it's all an act, that doesn't make the actions less awful. Bringing people back with the Dragon Balls doesn't change the fact that he killed those people, or that he enjoyed it. Him doing it to fight Goku actually makes it more awful; using innocent bystanders as pawns to start a childish ego squabble back up is the same as a terrorist using hostages to get what they want. I can kind of understand you saying Cell-Buu arc Vegeta was an act though, but Saiyan-Namek-era Vegeta? No, he was a bad guy and none of it was an act. But still...as I said before, I'm not arguing the nature of his evil, I'm saying that for purposes of the story, he was initially still every bit the villain that Daimao, Frieza, Cell, and Boo were. He wasn't some misunderstood guy with a little man complex; he had grand ambitions of his own to rule the universe. It almost does Vegeta disservice as a character to even suggest otherwise.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 pm

The closest we get to Vegeta “suffering” is Movie 12 where he’s lamenting on how whether he has a body or not his existence is still a hell or something to that effect.. He’s not sure how he got his body back and he knows it’s only temporary and once Janemba is defeated he fades back into nothingness, I think it’s beautifully done.

He got lucky with Porunga bringing him back and while yes he is going out of his way to save people in the later Super arcs I don’t think he’s trying to earn himself a get outta jail free card in the afterlife. He could save the Earth 5 more times, there’s nothing to suggest he still isn’t Hell bound when he does die for good eventually.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:07 pm

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:16 am
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:42 am
nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:31 am Vegeta is neither a "scared barking dog" like Piccolo Junior or a overlord like Frieza. His main issue in the show is closer to that of Neji and the Uchiha, a problem of his extreme nationalism and position/ranking in a clan/spieces system, which causes his rebellion and downfall, rather than independent claims of individual evil like every other villain. It only happens that his system was evil. His development thus is closer to Neji's and Sasuke's acceptance of their not very satisfactory reality, rather than a conscious moral awareness and redemption: "I'm evil and I'm wrong and i should redeem myself". If he did think that, it's his adaptation of a new culture that leads to it, not the other way around. Unlike Piccolo or Frieza who solely do evil because they just feel evil in and of themselves, Vegeta is representative of a whole culture and defines himself of that. And the characters of the show, including Gods, judged him based on that culture, that race, rather than his individual, separated self. That doesnt make him less evil, but i think this different frame of perspective puts him in a different place than Frieza, Cell, or Piccolo.
Too much digging. If your point is Vegeta was simply a product of his culture, no. Vegeta showed to be more evil than any sayijan. Certainly lacking any sort of compassion and honor for his own people.
Yes, Vegeta is a product of his culture. And he is useful for it, that's why Emma kept him around, and even Frieza wants him again after being betrayed by him. I am of the rare bunch that agrees he is the most evil and brutal Saiyan, bar none. But it doesnt matter if he's more evil than them. He still proved himself the best soldier of them. He's just useful to whoever wants him. Frieza and Cell and other Saiyans arent useful. If you want him to be punished because of his crimes,that's you digging too much for it. Real life reward and punishment standards is screwy that way. Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful.


There literally is NO digging in my argument, none. I said Vegeta deserves to be punished just like all of the other main villains in DBZ were. That's it. It's not a complicated concept. The only digging being made here is the one done by this mental gymnastics from people who are trying to argue that Vegeta wasn't actually evil like the other villains so that's why he shouldn't be? Saying things like "he wasn't actually evil like Frieza" or he was a "product of his culture" or that he "wanted the dragon balls so he's not that evil for killing the namekians?" :wtf:

And now to add your narrative, like... what?
Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful
You are saying that because Vegeta is useful then it's fair he isn't held accountable for his murders like any other villain was?
..Seriously...what?

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:25 pm

Yuji wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:23 am
dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 am
Why should he be punished?
Because all the other villains were
Debatable. Tenshinhan, Piccolo, the artificial Humans, Boo and in the modern series, Beerus, Hit all escaped "punishment." They got beat down and humbled, same thing happened to Vegeta.

If you think none of them are akin to Vegeta, then you can look at Freeza who in the modern continuity is running around without a care in the world. Yes, he suffered in Hell for ages but that's not very different from Vegeta himself dying twice and getting his spine broken, among other things while he was alive.

It's not debatable. It's factual that the VILLAINS in the show got what they deserve.
Frieza spent a lot of time in Hell, Cell is in Hell. Kid Buu is in Hell. Babbidi and Dabura are in Hell. There is nothing that separates Vegeta from Frieza, he had literally the same goal as Frieza did, he arguably murdered as many people as Frieza and and he was shown to be sadistic and proud of that process. No idea why are you mentioning Tenshinhan or the God of destruction.
Yes, he suffered in Hell for ages but that's not very different from Vegeta himself dying twice and getting his spine broken, among other things while he was alive.
(Replied to this notion previously already) The argument that because Vegeta has been defeated by opponents (which is something endured by every single character in DB), is somehow punishment for his years of evil is nonsensical. What does him having his spine broken (sort of like he broke Goku's) have to do with him paying for his 20 plus years of murder? Vegeta died twice and was brought back immediately the first time and a few days after the second time. There was no atonement nor punishment. Stop throwing nonsense around.
Vegeta. Has. Never. Paid. For. His. Crimes. Him enduring difficulties in his life and going to hell for five minutes is not in any way what Frieza or Cell got.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 pm

Vegeta was evil, yes, but he never got the chance to become the big threats that the other villains were. Maybe if he had actually gained immortality with the Dragon Balls, he would have eventually become the larger than life supervillain that Freeza, Daimao and the rest were. But that never happened.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:36 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 pm Vegeta was evil, yes, but he never got the chance to become the big threats that the other villains were. Maybe if he had actually gained immortality with the Dragon Balls, he would have eventually become the larger than life supervillain that Freeza, Daimao and the rest were. But that never happened.
Vegeta was a far bigger threat than Daimao - he literally tried to blow up the Earth in a temper tantrum and had Gohan's tail not grown back, everyone would have been dead.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:51 pm

I'm lost for words, Vegeta got Kami killed, the whole gang died, the DBs got turned into stone, they had to go to another planet for the first time... he even killed the guy that he came to Earth with.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:00 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 pm Vegeta was evil, yes, but he never got the chance to become the big threats that the other villains were. Maybe if he had actually gained immortality with the Dragon Balls, he would have eventually become the larger than life supervillain that Freeza, Daimao and the rest were. But that never happened.
So you're at least now admitting Vegeta was evil, not just "acting evil?" It's a start, I guess.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:22 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:36 pm Vegeta was a far bigger threat than Daimao - he literally tried to blow up the Earth in a temper tantrum and had Gohan's tail not grown back, everyone would have been dead.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:51 pm I'm lost for words, Vegeta got Kami killed, the whole gang died, the DBs got turned into stone, they had to go to another planet for the first time... he even killed the guy that he came to Earth with.

That's all incidental or technical. Vegeta was never portrayed as being the big supervillain that Daimao and the others were. It's just the writing. He wasn't a legendary demon lord who unleashed Hell upon the Earth. He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza, an unstoppable monster like Cell, or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo. Vegeta's character doesn't measure up to theirs in those respects, and the writing doesn't give his story that kind of scale or magnitude.

That's why it makes sense that Vegeta didn't meet the same fate as the others. He wasn't like them to begin with. And then afterwards he was put on the path to redemption, with the rest of DBZ featuring his journey.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:24 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:25 pm Maybe if he had actually gained immortality with the Dragon Balls, he would have eventually become the larger than life supervillain that Freeza, Daimao and the rest were. But that never happened.
....um, well for Frieza and Cell that never happened either, so then what is your point?

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:31 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:22 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:36 pm Vegeta was a far bigger threat than Daimao - he literally tried to blow up the Earth in a temper tantrum and had Gohan's tail not grown back, everyone would have been dead.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:51 pm I'm lost for words, Vegeta got Kami killed, the whole gang died, the DBs got turned into stone, they had to go to another planet for the first time... he even killed the guy that he came to Earth with.

That's all incidental or technical. Vegeta was never portrayed as being the big supervillain that Daimao and the others were. It's just the writing. He wasn't a legendary demon lord who unleashed Hell upon the Earth. He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza, an unstoppable monster like Cell, or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo. Vegeta's character doesn't measure up to theirs in those respects, and the writing doesn't give his story that kind of scale or magnitude.

That's why it makes sense that Vegeta didn't meet the same fate as the others. He wasn't like them to begin with. And then afterwards he was put on the path to redemption, with the rest of DBZ featuring his journey.
Yeah, he was just the prince(king actually) of a space vikings race Goku, the main protagonist, was a member of, which at that time was THE race in the show.

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