Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:21 pm

Vegeta was evil, yes, and a threat. Just not as evil or important as the other big villains
LOL I explained twice already how that statement is simply false but you keep actively ignoring my reply.
I'll say it again, Vegeta WAS IN FACT as evil and important as the other big villains. I don't know what your refutal for this is, because you haven't actually replied to the question, how is he not?

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:59 pm

Skar wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:33 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:30 pmWho's to say Nappa wouldn't have moved forward had he lived? Vegeta only got to change because Goku spared him (all for the purpose of fighting him again at the time), and even then it was a long time coming. In the Saiyan saga, the point of showing Vegeta killing Nappa was to show how truly ruthless and evil he was. Piccolo Jr. never did anything to the level of Vegeta's villainy; I mean, he did intend to kill everyone in the 23rd arena, so there's that.
To be fair to Nappa, he seemed less evil than Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. He first assumed they were going to use the Dragonballs to resurrect Raditz and thought Vegeta was going to give him a hand so he had some sense of camaraderie while Vegeta didn't care about other Saiyans once they were no longer useful to him. Also Nappa wanted to have Saiyan/human kids while Vegeta shot down the idea because he was worried they would be too strong.
Yeah I agree with that. Toriyama went to lengths to show Vegeta was a worse guy than Raditz or Nappa at that time.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:12 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:10 pm Vegeta was evil, yes, and a threat. Just not as evil or important as the other big villains. It's just the way Toriyama chose to write him. Vegeta was not some legendary big shot like Daimao, Freeza, or Boo. He didn't spread fear and terror throughout the Earth like Cell. And so forth.
No, he only wanted to blow it up. Again, I'm not sure where you're getting Vegeta not being as evil as the other villains. Maybe not as "big," sure, but that's because with Z the villains kept getting stronger.

I kind of see what you're saying about there being other villains in the Saiyan arc, but Vegeta was still the ultimate Big Bad even if he wasn't an overarching one like the later villains. Not that much different from how Frieza saga had Zarbon, Dodoria, and then the Ginyu Force, how the Cell saga had the sets of androids before Cell, or how Babidi and Dabura showed up before Boo.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:21 pm

dva_raza wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:36 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:24 pm Vegeta doesn't have to pay for his crimes. He's not a villain like Nappa, Freeza, or Cell. He's a villain like Piccolo, who moves on and changes for the better. In the Dragon World, that's all that matters. Guys like that don't pay, they pay it forward.
Well I 100% disagree with this statement.

He is not a villain like Nappa? WTF are you talking about lol. Vegeta is worse than Nappa, I said this already.

Vegeta is PRECISELY a villan like Frieza and Cell. How is he not?

Did you actually remember the show? Because you saying Vegeta is more like Piccolo makes no sense.
He was during the Saiyan arc but his character development during the Namek/Freeza arc made him somewhat sympathetic. He cried over Freeza's betrayal and begged Goku to avenge their fallen race.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by nhienphan2808 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:37 pm

The same way Frieza is still killing planets now. DB is not that concerned with redemption and paying for your crimes. Vegeta is not the character you look for when you look up morals and redemption.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:02 pm

dva_raza wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:29 pm He not only was a genocidal maniac for years under Frieza, he had the same goal as Frieza did and Vegeta murdered anyone who crossed his path. Not just following Frieza's orders. He absolutely LOVED it, he loved not only killing, but the joy of causing pain, fear and suffering. In my opinion Vegeta came off even more cruel than Cell did whenever he killed or intended to kill anybody.
Remember Nappa's face and shock when Vegeta kills his saibaman, asking him why? Nappa is not even close as evil. And then Nappa's shock when Vegeta kills him.
In the Frieza saga, Vegeta goes and kills (nothing to do with Frieza's orders) a bunch of Namekian people, including children and elders, while licking his lips in pleasure and laughing. Then after being revived he laughs again about this.
Enjoying killing does not make Vegeta the same as Freeza or Cell. No one is denying that Vegeta is evil, just that he wasn't as big of a threat as the other main villains. The stakes were never as high as they were with the others.

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:12 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:10 pm Vegeta was evil, yes, and a threat. Just not as evil or important as the other big villains. It's just the way Toriyama chose to write him. Vegeta was not some legendary big shot like Daimao, Freeza, or Boo. He didn't spread fear and terror throughout the Earth like Cell. And so forth.
No, he only wanted to blow it up. Again, I'm not sure where you're getting Vegeta not being as evil as the other villains.
I think that spreading fear and terror throughout the world is more evil than trying to blow it up. Especially when Vegeta only did it on a whim.

But it's really about the writing. Spending the time showing a villain wreaking havoc around the world goes a lot further in portraying them as a big threat than having a villain suddenly decide to blow up the planet. The reader/viewer is given a greater sense of the scale and depth of the villain's stature in doing so.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:58 pm

I think that spreading fear and terror throughout the world is more evil than trying to blow it up. Especially when Vegeta only did it on a whim.

But it's really about the writing. Spending the time showing a villain wreaking havoc around the world goes a lot further in portraying them as a big threat than having a villain suddenly decide to blow up the planet. The reader/viewer is given a greater sense of the scale and depth of the villain's stature in doing so.
Spreading fear and terror throughout the world is more effective of a tactic, which is why Piccolo Daimao is my favorite villain. But more evil than blowing up a planet and killing all its inhabitants? That's kind of ridiculous to even insinuate; I don't even know what to say. Just because it was on a whim doesn't make Vegeta less evil. It just means he was a homicidal maniac who had no qualms about killing. In the Frieza saga, he slaughtered a village of Namekians in his quest for the Dragon Balls. Had it not been for the Earthlings, I'm sure he would have spread his share of terror on Earth before/after finding those Dragon Balls, had Piccolo not died.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:45 am

Vegeta strikes me as more of a Piccolo Junior-type villain.

What I mean is his evilness and villainy seem quite forced as if he's projecting how evil he is to cover up some underlying issue he has. Yeah he's a bad guy for sure, but his threats never feel very real. More bark than bite type.

I think that's also why the cast doesn't react as strongly towards his deeds. They can sense ki and ki apparently carries intent and emotion judging by their reactions to it. If he were truly so wicked 24/7 like he enjoys playing, they would feel it.

Now he had a change of heart and developed over time, but I think he was never quite as bad as he tried to act. Arrogant and a prick for sure but "Pure Evil"? Lol no.

He goes to Earth to get the dragon balls. Why? Immortality. Why? To overthrow Frieza. Why? Because of a 20 year grudge for what he did.

He goes to Namek to get the dragon balls. Why? Immortality. Why? To overthrow Frieza. Why? Because of a 20 year grudge for what he did.

He doesn't inspire fear over a population to get enjoyment.

He doesn't torture those he's killing.

He's just a scared kid acting tough. Well...if a kid could blow up planets...
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:16 am

He doesn't torture those he's killing.

He's just a scared kid acting tough. Well...if a kid could blow up planets...

LOOOOL
HE doesn't torture those he's killing?
He tortured Goku and Gohan as much as he could, that was literally the reason for his defeat! Him wasting time TORTURING Goku instead of killing him is why Gohan and Krillin even had time to return. It's established in many instances how Vegeta is sadistic.
It's amazing how some fans would plainly deny facts so they can indulge Vegeta

I think he was never quite as bad as he tried to act. Arrogant and a prick for sure but "Pure Evil"? Lol no
"Lol no" ? ...him murdering Namekian children while licking his lips in enjoyment is not "pure evil", is just "arrogant and pricky" ? LMAO wtf is wrong with some people here
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:19 am

fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:45 am Vegeta strikes me as more of a Piccolo Junior-type villain.

What I mean is his evilness and villainy seem quite forced as if he's projecting how evil he is to cover up some underlying issue he has. Yeah he's a bad guy for sure, but his threats never feel very real. More bark than bite type.

I think that's also why the cast doesn't react as strongly towards his deeds. They can sense ki and ki apparently carries intent and emotion judging by their reactions to it. If he were truly so wicked 24/7 like he enjoys playing, they would feel it.

Now he had a change of heart and developed over time, but I think he was never quite as bad as he tried to act. Arrogant and a prick for sure but "Pure Evil"? Lol no.

He goes to Earth to get the dragon balls. Why? Immortality. Why? To overthrow Frieza. Why? Because of a 20 year grudge for what he did.

He goes to Namek to get the dragon balls. Why? Immortality. Why? To overthrow Frieza. Why? Because of a 20 year grudge for what he did.

He doesn't inspire fear over a population to get enjoyment.

He doesn't torture those he's killing.

He's just a scared kid acting tough. Well...if a kid could blow up planets...
That's just it though. It doesn't matter if he's a scared little kid or not or if he's overcompensating for something, he's still done plenty of evil deeds, deeds just as evil as the other main villains. When he went Majin and blew up half the stadium at the 25th, it doesn't matter if he was "pure evil" or not...his actions were still evil.

Again, I'm a Vegeta fan. Some of his behavior can be chalked up to this-and-that, but a lot of his actions were no less despicable than the other villains the Z group encountered. If anything, they kept Vegeta around as a wild card whose own self-interest happened to align with their own, not because he was "sour-then-sweet" like a Sour Patch Kid. Half the time, most of them didn't like or trust him like in the Android arc.

Also, you must've forgotten about Vegeta snapping Recoome's neck and laughing like a madman about it.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:27 am

Enjoying killing does not make Vegeta the same as Freeza or Cell.
No. Everything else I already mentioned does.

Again,
Vegeta's plans where exactly the SAME as Frieza's,
Vegeta arguably has killed as many people as Frieza.
Vegeta murders probably an entire village of Namekian people including children and elders by his own choice, and enjoys every second of it. (yes, that IS a relevant point, as it shows he is not only willing to do evil because it's part of his larger plan but he likes making other beings suffer, I don't know why this needs to be explained).

I think that spreading fear and terror throughout the world is more evil than trying to blow it up. Especially when Vegeta only did it on a whim.
Not sure how "doing it on a whim" is any less evil than doing it with calculation.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:58 pm It just means he was a homicidal maniac who had no qualms about killing.
That's not necessarily the same as being evil. It just means that he's capable of committing evil acts.

Slaughtering the village on Namek was about getting the Dragon Ball. That was his only purpose. He certainly enjoyed himself while doing it, and you could argue that makes him evil. But that's different from someone like Piccolo Daimao plunging the world into terror as a goal in and of itself. That's much more evil and twisted in my mind. Vegeta just wants to get the job done. At worst, he has some fun while doing it, like on Namek. At best, he just doesn't care, like when he destroys planets. Does being cold-hearted and apathetic make someone evil, or does it just make them more likely to do evil?

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:40 am

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:32 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:58 pm It just means he was a homicidal maniac who had no qualms about killing.
That's not necessarily the same as being evil. It just means that he's capable of committing evil acts.

Slaughtering the village on Namek was about getting the Dragon Ball. That was his only purpose. He certainly enjoyed himself while doing it, and you could argue that makes him evil. But that's different from someone like Piccolo Daimao plunging the world into terror as a goal in and of itself. That's much more evil and twisted in my mind. Vegeta just wants to get the job done. At worst, he has some fun while doing it, like on Namek. At best, he just doesn't care, like when he destroys planets. Does being cold-hearted and apathetic make someone evil, or does it just make them more likely to do evil?
His purpose was the same as Frieza's, to gain immortality. He had no regard for anyone but himself. This is really reaching to make Vegeta seem like he wasn't ever a truly bad guy in spite of the numerous actions to show otherwise. Some your takes have confused me in the past, frightened me even, but this takes the cake. :wtf:
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:46 am

Does being cold-hearted and apathetic make someone evil, or does it just make them more likely to do evil?
Ok well there's the point right there.
The fact that that comes down to the same outcome.
Whether you are someone who is "capable" of committing evil when it suits your purpose or have an identity crisis, or whether you were always a calculating evil person, makes no difference whatsoever to the outcome.

And Vegeta having a goal when going to the Namekian village is irrelevant to your argument. How him being capable of doing that makes him less evil considering he has a goal? I mean Frieza has also a goal. So? ( Vegeta's long term goal was to copy Frieza's)

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:31 am

Vegeta is neither a "scared barking dog" like Piccolo Junior or a overlord like Frieza. His main issue in the show is closer to that of Neji and the Uchiha, a problem of his extreme nationalism and position/ranking in a clan/spieces system, which causes his rebellion and downfall, rather than independent claims of individual evil like every other villain. It only happens that his system was evil. His development thus is closer to Neji's and Sasuke's acceptance of their not very satisfactory reality, rather than a conscious moral awareness and redemption: "I'm evil and I'm wrong and i should redeem myself". If he did think that, it's his adaptation of a new culture that leads to it, not the other way around. Unlike Piccolo or Frieza who solely do evil because they just feel evil in and of themselves, Vegeta is representative of a whole culture and defines himself of that. And the characters of the show, including Gods, judged him based on that culture, that race, rather than his individual, separated self. That doesnt make him less evil, but i think this different frame of perspective puts him in a different place than Frieza. Cell, or Piccolo.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Yuji » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:18 am

Why should he be punished?

For all of Toriyama's cynicism, he does seem like a firm believer in redemptive justice over punitive justice. Even if the series conveys sometimes a distrust for human goodness, the treatment of the antagonists betrays Toriyama's real thoughts. Like he said in an interview, perhaps it's just "cool" when antagonists become good guys, but it shows that he doesn't have very strong opinions regarding punishment.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:37 am

Why should he be punished?
Because all the other villains were
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:42 am

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:31 am Vegeta is neither a "scared barking dog" like Piccolo Junior or a overlord like Frieza. His main issue in the show is closer to that of Neji and the Uchiha, a problem of his extreme nationalism and position/ranking in a clan/spieces system, which causes his rebellion and downfall, rather than independent claims of individual evil like every other villain. It only happens that his system was evil. His development thus is closer to Neji's and Sasuke's acceptance of their not very satisfactory reality, rather than a conscious moral awareness and redemption: "I'm evil and I'm wrong and i should redeem myself". If he did think that, it's his adaptation of a new culture that leads to it, not the other way around. Unlike Piccolo or Frieza who solely do evil because they just feel evil in and of themselves, Vegeta is representative of a whole culture and defines himself of that. And the characters of the show, including Gods, judged him based on that culture, that race, rather than his individual, separated self. That doesnt make him less evil, but i think this different frame of perspective puts him in a different place than Frieza. Cell, or Piccolo.
Too much digging. If your point is Vegeta was simply a product of his culture, no. Vegeta showed to be more evil than any sayijan. Certainly lacking any sort of compassion and honor for his own people.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:16 am

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:42 am
nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:31 am Vegeta is neither a "scared barking dog" like Piccolo Junior or a overlord like Frieza. His main issue in the show is closer to that of Neji and the Uchiha, a problem of his extreme nationalism and position/ranking in a clan/spieces system, which causes his rebellion and downfall, rather than independent claims of individual evil like every other villain. It only happens that his system was evil. His development thus is closer to Neji's and Sasuke's acceptance of their not very satisfactory reality, rather than a conscious moral awareness and redemption: "I'm evil and I'm wrong and i should redeem myself". If he did think that, it's his adaptation of a new culture that leads to it, not the other way around. Unlike Piccolo or Frieza who solely do evil because they just feel evil in and of themselves, Vegeta is representative of a whole culture and defines himself of that. And the characters of the show, including Gods, judged him based on that culture, that race, rather than his individual, separated self. That doesnt make him less evil, but i think this different frame of perspective puts him in a different place than Frieza, Cell, or Piccolo.
Too much digging. If your point is Vegeta was simply a product of his culture, no. Vegeta showed to be more evil than any sayijan. Certainly lacking any sort of compassion and honor for his own people.
Yes, Vegeta is a product of his culture. And he is useful for it, that's why Emma kept him around, and even Frieza wants him again after being betrayed by him. I am of the rare bunch that agrees he is the most evil and brutal Saiyan, bar none. But it doesnt matter if he's more evil than them. He still proved himself the best soldier of them. He's just useful to whoever wants him. Frieza and Cell and other Saiyans arent useful. If you want him to be punished because of his crimes,that's you digging too much for it. Real life reward and punishment standards is screwy that way. Sometimes someone much worse or more evil than you is luckier and get it better than you in life because they are more useful.
Last edited by nhienphan2808 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:36 am

I agree with MyVisionity that having done evil acts in the past does not mean you are evil right now, as seen with Vegeta, but for the love of kami I can't understand what makes Vegeta a lesser threat than the rest of the villains.

He came to Earth and 3 hours later the whole DB gang was dead or crippled. Not even his lackey was spared, damn.

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