Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
It's kinda interesting that both times Vegeta was resurrected it was a mass resurrection and up to the dragons to include him. If they were more specific in the Freeza saga and wished for "only the good people killed by Freeza's army to be resurrected", I doubt they would've made an extra wish to bring back Vegeta a the time. Porunga could've decided that Vegeta was still more evil than good and Vegeta probably would've accepted his fate after helping out against Kid Buu.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Vegeta doesn't have to pay for his crimes. He's not a villain like Nappa, Freeza, or Cell. He's a villain like Piccolo, who moves on and changes for the better. In the Dragon World, that's all that matters. Guys like that don't pay, they pay it forward.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Excatly, of course they would not have wished his ass back the first time, nobody would care about him, he got LUCKY they happened to make the wish like they did, and makes no show of being greatful for that, he brags about killing the Namekian kids who weren't revived, he teases Gohan about Goku being dead and beats Gohan to a pulp. 5 seconds after this, he gets invited to live with Bulma?
His second revival is what bothers me the most and looks like the biggest show of "plot armor" this term that Goku haters love to throw around so much.
I don't see how Vegeta, after being an evil and proud about it mass murderer for more than twenty years and after murdering again a bunch of people just so Goku fights him, is somehow suddenly not considered one of the bad guys?
Why? Because he helped out correcting something he caused in the first place?
I guess 1 good deed immediately relinquishes more than 20 years of evil when it comes to Vegeta.
My point is he is basically somebody who is held to different standarts and it's no wonder that bothers some fans of the show
Last edited by dva_raza on Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Who's to say Nappa wouldn't have moved forward had he lived? Vegeta only got to change because Goku spared him (all for the purpose of fighting him again at the time), and even then it was a long time coming. In the Saiyan saga, the point of showing Vegeta killing Nappa was to show how truly ruthless and evil he was. Piccolo Jr. never did anything to the level of Vegeta's villainy; I mean, he did intend to kill everyone in the 23rd arena, so there's that.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:24 pm Vegeta doesn't have to pay for his crimes. He's not a villain like Nappa, Freeza, or Cell. He's a villain like Piccolo, who moves on and changes for the better. In the Dragon World, that's all that matters. Guys like that don't pay, they pay it forward.
I can accept Vegeta being with the "good guys," and I understand Dragon Ball is about redemption, but based on his actions throughout most of Z, there really isn't as much separating him from the likes of a Frieza or Cell as people seem to think.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Well I 100% disagree with this statement.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:24 pm Vegeta doesn't have to pay for his crimes. He's not a villain like Nappa, Freeza, or Cell. He's a villain like Piccolo, who moves on and changes for the better. In the Dragon World, that's all that matters. Guys like that don't pay, they pay it forward.
He is not a villain like Nappa? WTF are you talking about lol. Vegeta is worse than Nappa, I said this already.
Vegeta is PRECISELY a villan like Frieza and Cell. How is he not?
Did you actually remember the show? Because you saying Vegeta is more like Piccolo makes no sense.
Last edited by dva_raza on Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:30 pmExactly this, I would have no problem Vegeta being considered a good guy after he had actually paid consequences of his actions.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:24 pm I can accept Vegeta being with the "good guys," and I understand Dragon Ball is about redemption, but based on his actions throughout most of Z, there really isn't as much separating him from the likes of a Frieza or Cell as people seem to think.
He has never done this. That's a fact.
His fanboys love to dance around it. And it's what the original post was expressing issue with and I resonate with that.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Simply because he was no longer a bad guy. The good in his heart outweighed the evil at that point. Porunga understood this. Vegeta's past actions and deeds are not what determines whether or not he is a good guy or bad guy. Those things are for Yama's judgement in the Next World. If he's sent to Hell, fine, but it won't be because he's a bad person.
The key word is *if* he had lived. He didn't. You either die a villain, or you live long enough to see yourself become the hero. Vegeta like Piccolo was spared by Goku, so he got a chance to pay it forward and live a happy life. It's that simple.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:30 pmWho's to say Nappa wouldn't have moved forward had he lived?MyVisionity wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:24 pm Vegeta doesn't have to pay for his crimes. He's not a villain like Nappa, Freeza, or Cell. He's a villain like Piccolo, who moves on and changes for the better. In the Dragon World, that's all that matters. Guys like that don't pay, they pay it forward.
It was really all up to Toriyama as the author whether villains like Piccolo and Vegeta ended up like Freeza and Cell or not.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
so he got a chance to pay it forward and live a happy life. It's that simple.
Vegeta was EXACTLY the kind of villain as Frieza and Cell. If they HAD TO PAY, he should too. Not "paying it forward", no. That's Vegeta having things too easy for him for no reason at all and it's precisely my point.
Last edited by dva_raza on Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
At least with Zeno, he is basically The Judge and arbiter of the multiverse, which is completely terrifying. It's basically impossible to punish him no matter what he does. It's like if God killed your mother out of unambiguous malice. Are you honestly going to waste your time calling the cop to take Jehovah to jail? Gonna aim your gun at the sky to try to enact vigilante justice?UI Peter wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:55 pmSame with Fat Buu & ZenoDevilKing99 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:09 am Kinda hilarious Vegeta is responsible for the deaths of over trillion people and never get punished for it at all.
Face it, Bejita-sama is in the same situation in comparison to most of the cast anyway. Goku likes him, as does Beerus and Whis, so even if all the other senshi turned on him to make him pay, all he has to do is kill them or get Goku to beat them back or convince Beerus that if he dies, they all get their souls erased. It's basically one big low-key hostage situation.
And that's fascinating to me because it's playing realistic consequences against literal godlike beings. Our society and morality is simply not prepared to deal with gods on Earth; we call that "mythology" and "religion." No criminal justice system in this galaxy is equipped to deal with superhuman beings doing wrong. Even in the hyper-wacky Dragon Ball verse, they're not properly equipped to deal with it either. And that's hilarious. It's always been hilarious.
Last edited by Yuli Ban on Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Well, of course it's up to Toriyama. I'm just saying there was nothing to show Vegeta was ever a better person than the likes of Nappa until the 2nd half of the Buu arc. He had his moments, but was a pretty awful guy for most of the series. Yet he still got to hang with the Z Fighters in spite of that. Don't get me wrong, that makes him an interesting character, but he really wasn't ever conflicted by his evil actions until his fight with Fat Buu. Everyone may have gotten off easy to a certain degree, but there's no denying Vegeta got off easier than most for his actions.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
One other issue here might be the fact a lot of people are looking at this from the perspective that the senshi are basically the Justice League. They're just a collection of martial artists who happen to work together because they're the strongest people on the planet; as long as Vegeta is not actively hostile, they wouldn't touch him anyway. He's useful to their aims and helps keep the planet safe, so might as well keep him around.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Goku likes him, as does Beerus and Whis, so even if all the other senshi turned on him to make him pay, all he has to do is kill them or get Goku to beat them back or convince Beerus that if he dies, they all get their souls erased. It's basically one big low-key hostage situation.
First of all, I don't think this is the case at all. You are saying Goku would try to fight someone for making Vegeta go to hell? Not really, Goku would'nt care if that's what is fair. Goku might like Vegeta while he is around but he would obviously accept it if Vegeta was held accountable.
Whis and Beerus are not Vegeta's friends, they are friends with Goku and accept Vegeta. Also Whis is always impartial. If Vegeta had to go to hell Whis wouldn't fight that.
Second, I am not talking about Vegeta paying NOW. I am mentioning the fact that he never has.
Last edited by dva_raza on Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
That's pretty much why I can accept it.Yuli Ban wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:04 pm One other issue here might be the fact a lot of people are looking at this from the perspective that the senshi are basically the Justice League. They're just a collection of martial artists who happen to work together because they're the strongest people on the planet; as long as Vegeta is not actively hostile, they wouldn't touch him anyway. He's useful to their aims and helps keep the planet safe, so might as well keep him around.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Well in that case, it's just down to the personal preferences of the senshi themselves. And as mentioned, he probably didn't go to Hell after the Boo imbroglio because of the direness of the situation. Even though the gods are supposed to be impartial, Toriyama's always written the celestial hierarchy as goofy, incompetent office workers.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
I wouldn't put Vegeta on the same level as Daimao, Freeza, Cell, or Boo. His role in the Saiyan arc just wasn't the same. He was the antagonist, sure, but never written to be as big or important of a threat as the others.
Paying it forward is paying. Is it perfectly fair? No. But it's a kind of fairness. Maybe Vegeta got off easy, but that's Dragon Ball. It's a story about flaws, not perfection. As mentioned previously, DB is not a superhero story.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Vegeta was going to destroy the planet Earth; he was the first villain of the series to attempt it. How was he not as big a threat as the other guys? Vegeta was a terrifying menace during the Saiyan arc, and nearly unbeatable. It was combined efforts from Goku, Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe to stop him. I don't understand this assessment at all.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:18 pmI wouldn't put Vegeta on the same level as Daimao, Freeza, Cell, or Boo. His role in the Saiyan arc just wasn't the same. He was the antagonist, sure, but never written to be as big or important of a threat as the others.
Paying it forward is paying. Is it perfectly fair? No. But it's a kind of fairness. Maybe Vegeta got off easy, but that's Dragon Ball. It's a story about flaws, not perfection. As mentioned previously, DB is not a superhero story.
Last edited by Demon Prince Piccolo on Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Yes he got lucky they needed him. The point remains he has never paid the same consequences Frieza, Cell and Nappa (who is not even close to Vegeta in terms of evil actions) have done. It just need to be said.he probably didn't go to Hell after the Boo imbroglio because of the direness of the situation.
Anybody who claims he is the same type of bad guy as Piccolo was is just in denial of the facts.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Honestly I don't mean this in a rude way but you should maybe rewatch the Saiyan and Frieza Saga? How would you NOT put Vegeta on the same level with Frieza or Cell? Vegeta first of all, WAS in fact, A VILLAIN. And to this day considered one of the best villains of DB.I wouldn't put Vegeta on the same level as Daimao, Freeza, Cell, or Boo. His role in the Saiyan arc just wasn't the same. He was the antagonist, sure, but never written to be as big or important of a threat as the others.
He not only was a genocidal maniac for years under Frieza, he had the same goal as Frieza did and Vegeta murdered anyone who crossed his path. Not just following Frieza's orders. He absolutely LOVED it, he loved not only killing, but the joy of causing pain, fear and suffering. In my opinion Vegeta came off even more cruel than Cell did whenever he killed or intended to kill anybody.
Remember Nappa's face and shock when Vegeta kills his saibaman, asking him why? Nappa is not even close as evil. And then Nappa's shock when Vegeta kills him.
In the Frieza saga, Vegeta goes and kills (nothing to do with Frieza's orders) a bunch of Namekian people, including children and elders, while licking his lips in pleasure and laughing. Then after being revived he laughs again about this.
Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
To be fair to Nappa, he seemed less evil than Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. He first assumed they were going to use the Dragonballs to resurrect Raditz and thought Vegeta was going to give him a hand so he had some sense of camaraderie while Vegeta didn't care about other Saiyans once they were no longer useful to him. Also Nappa wanted to have Saiyan/human kids while Vegeta shot down the idea because he was worried they would be too strong.Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:30 pmWho's to say Nappa wouldn't have moved forward had he lived? Vegeta only got to change because Goku spared him (all for the purpose of fighting him again at the time), and even then it was a long time coming. In the Saiyan saga, the point of showing Vegeta killing Nappa was to show how truly ruthless and evil he was. Piccolo Jr. never did anything to the level of Vegeta's villainy; I mean, he did intend to kill everyone in the 23rd arena, so there's that.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes
Vegeta was evil, yes, and a threat. Just not as evil or important as the other big villains. It's just the way Toriyama chose to write him. Vegeta was not some legendary big shot like Daimao, Freeza, or Boo. He didn't spread fear and terror throughout the Earth like Cell. And so forth.
Part of it might be because the Saiyan arc did not revolve around a singular antagonist. Vegeta was the lead villain, but it was really about all three of them, collectively.
Another reason might be that coming off of the Piccolo saga, Toriyama may not have wanted to do another story about a big shot villain, but instead try something a bit different. He eventually worked his way back to it for Freeza.
Honestly though, it might all be because the DBZ series is really Vegeta's story. He appears at the start of it as a ruthless and evil villain, only to end up as a hero with a good heart. His journey lasts the entirety of the Z-era, and that might explain why his character is held to different standards by Toriyama. Vegeta's role was supposed to be much more than just a villain who pays for his crimes, unlike the others.
Part of it might be because the Saiyan arc did not revolve around a singular antagonist. Vegeta was the lead villain, but it was really about all three of them, collectively.
Another reason might be that coming off of the Piccolo saga, Toriyama may not have wanted to do another story about a big shot villain, but instead try something a bit different. He eventually worked his way back to it for Freeza.
Honestly though, it might all be because the DBZ series is really Vegeta's story. He appears at the start of it as a ruthless and evil villain, only to end up as a hero with a good heart. His journey lasts the entirety of the Z-era, and that might explain why his character is held to different standards by Toriyama. Vegeta's role was supposed to be much more than just a villain who pays for his crimes, unlike the others.