Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:32 pm

Vegeta was never portrayed as being the big supervillain that Daimao and the others were. It's just the writing. He wasn't a legendary demon lord who unleashed Hell upon the Earth. He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza, an unstoppable monster like Cell, or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo.

This is the argument right here that I still cannot understand why you keep insisting on. Vegeta "was never portrayed as being the big supervillain", again I ask, HOW WAS HE NOT?

" He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza"
Vegeta had exactly the same goal as Frieza, Frieza didn't achieve his either, Frieza is STILL considered a "big" villain. Why is it any different for Vegeta ?

"an unstoppable monster like Cell, "
Disagree. Vegeta was an unstoppable monster like Cell. It took almost all of the Z members to die and Goku being left disabled to take him down. Vegeta being dumb enough to let his anger rule his actions which ends up in his defeat doesn't take away the fact that he was more powerful than everyone and had whole intention of killing everybody

"or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo."
You just said Vegeta was a product of his culture, which basically means he was "made" into who he was, but now you say he isn't like Buu who was LITERALLY created?


You gave so many circles already you don't seem to know what it is you're talking about anymore.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:41 pm

dva_raza wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:32 pm
Vegeta was never portrayed as being the big supervillain that Daimao and the others were. It's just the writing. He wasn't a legendary demon lord who unleashed Hell upon the Earth. He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza, an unstoppable monster like Cell, or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo.

This is the argument right here that I still cannot understand why you keep insisting on. Vegeta "was never portrayed as being the big supervillain", again I ask, HOW WAS HE NOT?

" He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza"
Vegeta had exactly the same goal as Frieza, Frieza didn't achieve his either, Frieza is STILL considered a "big" villain. Why is it any different for Vegeta ?

"an unstoppable monster like Cell, "
Disagree. Vegeta was an unstoppable monster like Cell. It took almost all of the Z members to die and Goku being left disabled to take him down. Vegeta being dumb enough to let his anger rule his actions which ends up in his defeat doesn't take away the fact that he was more powerful than everyone and had whole intention of killing everybody

"or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo."
You just said Vegeta was a product of his culture, which basically means he was "made" into who he was, but now you say he isn't like Buu who was LITERALLY created?


You gave so many circles already you don't seem to know what it is you're talking about anymore.
To expand on this, the forms/techniques used against Freeza and Cell all worked (SS and SS2). Against Vegeta, KKx4's kamehameha was still not enough to defeat him. Not even the technique used to kill Kid Buu worked on Vegeta. Not even throwing a great ape after that did the job.

If that doesn't qualify as unstoppable, then I don't know what does.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:43 pm

Oh for the love of sanity, are we going through this pro-Vegeta rationalisation argument again?
You have been BTFO before, MyVisionity, don't expect things to go differently this time.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:12 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:22 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:36 pm Vegeta was a far bigger threat than Daimao - he literally tried to blow up the Earth in a temper tantrum and had Gohan's tail not grown back, everyone would have been dead.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:51 pm I'm lost for words, Vegeta got Kami killed, the whole gang died, the DBs got turned into stone, they had to go to another planet for the first time... he even killed the guy that he came to Earth with.

That's all incidental or technical. Vegeta was never portrayed as being the big supervillain that Daimao and the others were. It's just the writing. He wasn't a legendary demon lord who unleashed Hell upon the Earth. He wasn't a galactic overlord and master of evil like Freeza, an unstoppable monster like Cell, or an ancient incarnation of death like Boo. Vegeta's character doesn't measure up to theirs in those respects, and the writing doesn't give his story that kind of scale or magnitude.

That's why it makes sense that Vegeta didn't meet the same fate as the others. He wasn't like them to begin with. And then afterwards he was put on the path to redemption, with the rest of DBZ featuring his journey.
Vegeta was an intergalactic space pirate who had presumably conquered an innumerable amount of worlds and was coming to Earth with the purpose of stealing the Dragon Balls and killing everyone there. He was also the big bad of the entire race of people that Goku came from. No prior villain was bigger than him in scale or had a comparable rap sheet, and worse yet, it was all just an unremarkable job in Vegeta's eyes. Hell, even Daimao cared about his underlings, albeit in a narcissistic way, and Vegeta went and killed or disregarded his just to set him further apart in the evil scale.

The worst thing Piccolo Daimao did was plunge the Earth into terror for a few brief periods of time. For Vegeta, that terror was just another day at the office. Tuesday.

No matter how you try to spin at, VEGETA WAS EVIL. He did evil things, he had evil desires, he enjoyed it, and killed trillions of people. Just because he had the ability to behave himself when he had no motive doesn't make him less evil - it just means he has better self control. High-functioning sociopaths have a sense of logic that allows them to dial it back and even cooperate with others if it's in their best interest. But being capable of killing innocent people so you can achieve a selfish goal (in this case, becoming immortal so he could take the Space Hitler crown) is fucking evil, I don't how much clearer it needs to be made. He deserved the worst punishment.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:14 pm

If anything, Vegeta was portrayed more unstoppable in relation to just about any other Dragon Ball villain during the Saiyan saga. And even after that, I don't know anyone who can take a better beating. At the time where the Saiyan Saga was the newest Dragon Ball arc, the Saiyans were the ultimate enemy. Just listen to how intimidating Kikuchi's musical cues for them are. I really don't get the argument that Vegeta wasn't meant to be a threat on the same level on those others. And as someone else said above, if you're saying Vegeta is a product of his enviroment, you can't ignore that Cell is literally made up of different people's cells and, with the most powerful (Vegeta being in the mix) heavily influencing his arrogant personality, along with Androids 17 and 18, or that Boo was literally created to be the way he was.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:20 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:14 pm If anything, Vegeta was portrayed more unstoppable in relation to just about any other Dragon Ball villain during the Saiyan saga. And even after that, I don't know anyone who can take a better beating. At the time where the Saiyan Saga was the newest Dragon Ball arc, the Saiyans were the ultimate enemy. Just listen to how intimidating Kikuchi's musical cues for them are. I really don't get the argument that Vegeta wasn't meant to be a threat on the same level on those others. And as someone else said above, if you're saying Vegeta is a product of his enviroment, you can't ignore that Cell is literally made up of different people's cells and, with the most powerful (Vegeta being in the mix) heavily influencing his arrogant personality, along with Androids 17 and 18, or that Boo was literally created to be the way he was.
And not just Vegeta, but Nappa too. Piccolo was shown blowing up a city with a blast that he clearly exerted himself for. And then we see Nappa turn a city into Hiroshima with a swipe of two fingers before proceeding to kill most of the cast - including Piccolo, the last villain!

And then Vegeta bosses the dude around, kills him, is positioned as the complete antithesis to Goku, and pushes him further than anybody had before.

The Saiyans were clearly a higher scale of enemy.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
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Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:31 pm

To expand on this, the forms/techniques used against Freeza and Cell all worked (SS and SS2). Against Vegeta, KKx4's kamehameha was still not enough to defeat him. Not even the technique used to kill Kid Buu worked on Vegeta. Not even throwing a great ape after that did the job.

If that doesn't qualify as unstoppable, then I don't know what does.

Exactly.

And as I mentioned previously, not for nothing Vegeta is remembered as one of the best villains ever in the show, he was pure evil, brutal and unstoppable. Don't understand the blunt denial of this, especially from anybody who calls himself a fan of his. You have to know and accept who he is if you claim you like him as a character, not making up your own version of him

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by dva_raza » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Vegeta killed those people and smiled. Why did he do that? Really. Why? He wanted his fight with Goku as he probably saw it as his last chance and yeah that's a shitty thing to do but Vegeta isn't stupid. He knew the people would be revived.

First, relying on the Dragon Balls doesn't make murdering people OK.

Second, what if something like what happens in GT were to happen? (the dragon balls stop working) And then what?

Third, disagree on the "Vegeta isn't stupid" at least in this scenario. Him putting his ego above everyone around him and causing what would later become world annihilation, is stupid.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:48 pm

I see where the argument is going, where it is and where it has been.

I never stated my interpretation of the art as fact and I think we should stop doing that in general. We interpret motivations differently and what even constitutes as evil.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:14 pm

fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:48 pm I see where the argument is going, where it is and where it has been.

I never stated my interpretation of the art as fact and I think we should stop doing that in general. We interpret motivations differently and what even constitutes as evil.
We are pointing out what is clearly laid out in front of us by Akira Toriyama, the author of the manga and creator of Vegeta. You're right, there's nothing to stop you from having your own 'interpretation," but that doesn't somehow revoke what is clearly, consistently laid out in front of us by the storyteller. If you can't accept that, there's not anything more to be discussed.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:30 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:14 pm
fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:48 pm I see where the argument is going, where it is and where it has been.

I never stated my interpretation of the art as fact and I think we should stop doing that in general. We interpret motivations differently and what even constitutes as evil.
We are pointing out what is clearly laid out in front of us by Akira Toriyama, the author of the manga and creator of Vegeta. You're right, there's nothing to stop you from having your own 'interpretation," but that doesn't revoke what is clearly laid out in front of us. If you can't accept that, there's not anything more to be discussed.
So you know Vegeta enjoyed killing those people in front of Goku? Because you can interpret the text like some sort of prophet? Cool.

Get off your high horse
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:34 pm

DB's a fairly straightforward show that doesn't really leave room for subtext and alternate interpretations.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:39 pm

fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:30 pm So you know Vegeta enjoyed killing those people in front of Goku? Because you can interpret the text like some sort of prophet? Cool.

Get off your high horse
I see what you're trying to to. You're trying to guilt me into feeling like I'm adopting some pseudo-intellectual stance on Dragon Ball when all I'm doing is paying attention to the story and its characters.

It's not working. I see you're new here, so maybe you don't understand how discussions actually go. But they don't involve telling someone to get off their "high horse" just because they didn't agree with or accept your interpretation of the story/character.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 pm

You're embarrassing yourself. I tried to say we agree to disagree. You chase me down. I call you out. Now you think because I'm new here I don't know how to argue and you have some superior status. It's embarrassing.

And all art is open to interpretation. What are these attacks?
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:51 pm

fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 pm You're embarrassing yourself. I tried to say we agree to disagree. You chase me down. I call you out. Now you think because I'm new here I don't know how to argue and you have some superior status. It's embarrassing.

And all art is open to interpretation. What are these attacks?
No one's embarrassed, compadre. You're ascribing personal feelings and emotions where none existed. We're having a discussion. You don't see MyVisionity trying to turn this into a personal thing, even though more of the people disagreeing directly challenged him and not you.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:01 pm

Also demon prince piccolo is more of a newbie than you fleahop. Look up the join date.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by fleahop » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:01 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:51 pm
fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 pm You're embarrassing yourself. I tried to say we agree to disagree. You chase me down. I call you out. Now you think because I'm new here I don't know how to argue and you have some superior status. It's embarrassing.

And all art is open to interpretation. What are these attacks?
No one's embarrassed, compadre. You're ascribing personal feelings and emotions where none existed. We're having a discussion. You don't see MyVisionity trying to turn this into a personal thing, even though more of the people disagreeing directly challenged him and not you.
I believe this started as a discussion but I think it quickly devolved into something else entirely. I think you can't stand to let another person, whether they're directly arguing your point or not, get the last word in simply due to them having a differing ideology. Even a half-agreement would be no good.

You can't let it go. Prove me wrong.
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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:02 pm

It's not about how powerful Vegeta is. It's about how the story portrays his character throughout the arc. We don't see Vegeta going around and doing these terrible things in the present. We only hear about it or get brief glimpses. The main characters don't experience it, the audience doesn't experience it, because the story itself doesn't revolve around any of it.

At most, Vegeta himself is portrayed as a cold and ruthless fighter, a lone wolf, going after what he wants while trying to survive. He wants ultimate power, yes, but he doesn't have it yet. It's only ambition, and even then we only hear about it after the Saiyan saga when he's no longer the primary antagonist.

The writing just isn't interested in building up Vegeta as a super big deal, or spending time on expressing how terrible he is. That's what sets him apart from the rest.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:50 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:01 pm Also demon prince piccolo is more of a newbie than you fleahop. Look up the join date.
Lol well I fouled there. I was going moreso by the description and not the join-up date.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Vegeta spents most of the time being a douchebag in the orginal manga,does a 180 and never suffers for his crimes

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:55 pm

fleahop wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:01 pm I believe this started as a discussion but I think it quickly devolved into something else entirely. I think you can't stand to let another person, whether they're directly arguing your point or not, get the last word in simply due to them having a differing ideology. Even a half-agreement would be no good.

You can't let it go. Prove me wrong.
That's just it, though. There's nothing to let go. No one is or was upset. And the point of discussions isn't necessarily people coming to an agreement, although if that happens, great. But we're going around in circles at this point, so I've nothing else to add here, really.

If you look at several of my responses, I said "I kind of see what you're getting at," but still disagreed. I haven't been trying to get the last word in. I just enjoy talking Dragon Ball and was trying to provide a counterpoint, not to change your mind, but just to add perspective to what some of us were saying. But rather than actually looking at my points, you're trying to make it out like I'm out to get you. If you feel that Vegeta was never truly that bad of a guy, that's your prerogative. I fundamentally disagree with that and was just stating why, along with others here. Nothing you or MyVisionity said convinced us otherwise. But if you still feel that way, cool.

To be fair to you though, this topic was dead for a year and recently revived, so maybe that's part of the issue here.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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