Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:34 pm

Well, in the anime, the characters seem to pronounce it with a very soft 'R' that sounds more like an 'L' anyway. I understand that keeping one 'R' but randomly throwing in an 'L' at the end is kind of silly, but I understand Nitro's point that a native English speaker stressing a hard 'R' sound could be misconstrued as affecting a bad Japanese accent. There was nothing racist about anything he said. Obviously that's not so much the case with Kuririn's name due to the original pun, but I've never encountered any native English speaker who seriously uses "Pikkoro" over "Piccolo", for example.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Adamant » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:48 pm

Japanese doesn't "lack" R or L, it has a consonant sound that is generally romanized as R. This sound is then used to approximate the English R and L in English loan words.

The argument for "Kurilin" was some utterly bizarre anglocentric idea that Toriyama apparently meant to use an L in his name but had to use an R instead due to the shortcomings of the language he was writing in, which is... probably not an idea you should lend too much weight to.

As I mentioned earlier, Kuririn's name is a compound of "kurikuri" and "rin", there's no real logic behind writing it as anything other than "Kuririn". If you want to RENAME him because you're making a dub and your actors struggle with pronouncing the name, then sure, call him what you want, but that's kinda diverging from the topic of the thread.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Aim » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm

Adamant wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:48 pm
As I mentioned earlier, Kuririn's name is a compound of "kurikuri" and "rin", there's no real logic behind writing it as anything other than "Kuririn". If you want to RENAME him because you're making a dub and your actors struggle with pronouncing the name, then sure, call him what you want, but that's kinda diverging from the topic of the thread.
It's not like "Kuririn" is exactly a natural word to say in English. The point is which way is correct to translate the names.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Adamant » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:28 pm

Aim wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:03 pm
Adamant wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:48 pm
As I mentioned earlier, Kuririn's name is a compound of "kurikuri" and "rin", there's no real logic behind writing it as anything other than "Kuririn". If you want to RENAME him because you're making a dub and your actors struggle with pronouncing the name, then sure, call him what you want, but that's kinda diverging from the topic of the thread.
It's not like "Kuririn" is exactly a natural word to say in English. The point is which way is correct to translate the names.
You don't really translate names, but if by "translate" you mean "what is the best and most logical way to write this in roman letters?", then that'd be Kuririn. Any and all other derivations from that you see are deliberately altered spellings done either for style or to make it easier for some dub actors to pronounce, which has over the years given us Kulilin, Klilyn, Krilin, Krillin, Clirin and probably some others I'm forgetting. None of these are more correct than the others, and all of them completely ignore the original meaning of the name in favor of changing it up with various Ls and Cs and what have you.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Aim » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:40 pm

Adamant wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:28 pm
You don't really translate names, but if by "translate" you mean "what is the best and most logical way to write this in roman letters?", then that'd be Kuririn. Any and all other derivations from that you see are deliberately altered spellings done either for style or to make it easier for some dub actors to pronounce, which has over the years given us Kulilin, Klilyn, Krilin, Krillin, Clirin and probably some others I'm forgetting. None of these are more correct than the others, and all of them completely ignore the original meaning of the name in favor of changing it up with various Ls and Cs and what have you.
You wouldn't say Bijita though, or Bejito, so would Kuririn ideally be "Kulilin"? Or just Kuririn? What about Kurlin? Or Kurilin as some people suggested, isn't there a pun on chest nut in there? Kuri?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:56 pm

I think the times where you switch "r" to "l" or "b" to "v" are when the word was referencing an English word to begin with. Like isn't "Bejita" referencing the English word "vegetable"? And so it would make sense to switch that "b" to a "v" in the English translation to "Vegeta". Another example is "Bideru" which is an anagram of the English word "devil" and so it makes sense to switch the "b" to "v" and "r" to "l" in the English translation to "Videl".

I'm no expert on this, but people seem to be saying that "Kuririn" is referencing another Japanese word rather than an English one, and so it wouldn't make sense to switch any of the "r"s to "l"s but rather to keep it the way it is.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Adamant » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:16 pm

Aim wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:40 pm
You wouldn't say Bijita though, or Bejito, so would Kuririn ideally be "Kulilin"? Or just Kuririn? What about Kurlin? Or Kurilin as some people suggested
Well no, Vegeta's name is the English word "vegetable" with the "ble" cut off and the second e sound elongated. "Vegeta" is a fairly logical spelling that takes the actual English source word into account. Kuririn's name comes from two Japanese words, there's no logic in randomly spelling it in some bizarre way that removes and changes letters from how you'd ordinarily romanize the source words. It's literally "kuri" from a word that's normally romanized "kurikuri" and "rin" from a word that's normally spelled "rin". All those spellings are the same as the "Ginew" spelling... sure you CAN choose to spell it that way, but there's no real logic behind it and it completely ignores the pun.
Aim wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:40 pm
isn't there a pun on chest nut in there? Kuri?
Initially no, but Toriyama would eventually associate that word with the character. I believe the first time it was done was during the 22nd Budokai, where a title page shows Goku and Kuririn riding scooters with kanji emblems on the front. Goku's has the 孫 kanji (the "Son" in "Son Goku") and Kuririn's has the 栗 kanji (meaning chestnut, read as "kuri"). He'd also ultimately give her a daughter named Maron, from "marron", the French word for chestnut (and Toei gave him a filler girlfriend literally named Marron).
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:59 am

Kuri is supposed to be read as two consonants with a vowel in one go: "kri". In some cases, you only switch the R for an L when there are two syllables, such as in Metaru Kuura (Metal Coola). The U in Metaru replaces what we think is a third syllable with a sound that resembles Metal (only two syllables). Both U in Kuura separate the last syllable from the first, because two vowels are usually extended with an R sound, such as in Suupaa Saiyajin (with both U making it a distinctive Su- so that it's not "spar"). However, since the extended R sound overlaps with -ra in Kuura, we end up with Cool-luh, so it makes sense to read Kuririn as Kril-inn. The English translation has made it simpler with Krillin, but not all names are correctly adapted.

And to answer the thread, before I'm accused of diverging, Vegetto as Japanese romanization reads like Ve-jeh-toe, as if the first two syllables had a silent first -e and sounded like "object". Vegetto is therefore not romanization, when in its place there is bejitto, which reads like Veh-jee-toh. I don't know which writing form better aproximates that sound in English, but I know that, in Portuguese, Vegito is correct. The problem being that we read Vegeta with an open second -e in Portugal, like Ve-jeh-tuh, so the fusion name doesn't match. You have to deal with compromise in order to keep the pun intact. The 90s Portugal dub solved this by calling him Vegeku (Veh-jeh-coo), with -ku coming from you know whom.

Also, with regards to Kakarotto or Kakarrotto, did you know that "kyarotto" means carrot, but can also be read as calotte, which is why the French and Portuguese translated his name as Cachalote? (they repeated the first syllable like Kakarotto). This is why I believe that if you want to force the sound of an R, so that it's not switched to an L, Kakarrotto suits his name best, but who knows whether or not Toriyama likes to fool people with his puns?
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Cold Skin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:15 pm

Desassina wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:59 am
Also, with regards to Kakarotto or Kakarrotto, did you know that "kyarotto" means carrot, but can also be read as calotte, which is why the French and Portuguese translated his name as Cachalote? (they repeated the first syllable like Kakarotto). This is why I believe that if you want to force the sound of an R, so that it's not switched to an L, Kakarrotto suits his name best, but who knows whether or not Toriyama likes to fool people with his puns?
It was the old French dub that adapted it into "Cachalot" (the French word for "sperm whale") only for movie 10 if memory serves, so that it could be used as a joke with Goten getting angry at Broly for being called a sperm whale repeatedly.
Otherwise, the old French dub simply replaced all instances of Goku's real name with his Earthling name "Sangoku", except for movie 8 where he was called "Karotto".

Wouldn't read too much into the old French dub, which was also responsible for Piccolo being called "Petit Cœur" (small heart) which in turn was converted to "Big Green" in some famous English dub adapted from it. Puerh was "Plume" (feather), Mister Satan was "Hercule" - which was then reused by the American dub for a while -, Majin Boo was "Boubou", Yajirobe was "Balance" (French word for "weighing scales"), Shin was "Neptune" and so on...

Though it's not any worse than the SNES video games translations back then that adapted Broly into "Tara", Zangya into "Aki", Bojack into "Kujila", Kaio into "Guardian", Mister Satan into "Hell" and Dende into "Dandy"... Ah, and in the instruction booklet, Kaio Shin was called "Seigneur Dieu Suprême (S.D.S.)", basically in English "Lord Supreme God (L.S.G.)".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:58 pm

When I first watched it on Toonami back in 2002, I thought it was a weird way for combinding Vegeta and Goku. I thought it should have been spelled Vegetu instead of Vegetto. Ah to be young again.

As I started to research more of the series after it ended its toonami run, I found out Kakarot was actually Kakarotto in the japanese. So I was like "Oh that makes sense!"

So when Viz released volume 26 in 2006 and saw Vegerot, it bothered me a bit but overall it made sense. Viz probably realized they translated Kakarotto as Kakarot and wanted to keep it consistent. So when I thought about it that way, it didn't bug me as much.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by The Bastard. » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:28 am

Desassina wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:59 am
Kuri is supposed to be read as two consonants with a vowel in one go: "kri". In some cases, you only switch the R for an L when there are two syllables, such as in Metaru Kuura (Metal Coola). The U in Metaru replaces what we think is a third syllable with a sound that resembles Metal (only two syllables). Both U in Kuura separate the last syllable from the first, because two vowels are usually extended with an R sound, such as in Suupaa Saiyajin (with both U making it a distinctive Su- so that it's not "spar"). However, since the extended R sound overlaps with -ra in Kuura, we end up with Cool-luh, so it makes sense to read Kuririn as Kril-inn. The English translation has made it simpler with Krillin, but not all names are correctly adapted.

And to answer the thread, before I'm accused of diverging, Vegetto as Japanese romanization reads like Ve-jeh-toe, as if the first two syllables had a silent first -e and sounded like "object". Vegetto is therefore not romanization, when in its place there is bejitto, which reads like Veh-jee-toh. I don't know which writing form better aproximates that sound in English, but I know that, in Portuguese, Vegito is correct. The problem being that we read Vegeta with an open second -e in Portugal, like Ve-jeh-tuh, so the fusion name doesn't match. You have to deal with compromise in order to keep the pun intact. The 90s Portugal dub solved this by calling him Vegeku (Veh-jeh-coo), with -ku coming from you know whom.

Also, with regards to Kakarotto or Kakarrotto, did you know that "kyarotto" means carrot, but can also be read as calotte, which is why the French and Portuguese translated his name as Cachalote? (they repeated the first syllable like Kakarotto). This is why I believe that if you want to force the sound of an R, so that it's not switched to an L, Kakarrotto suits his name best, but who knows whether or not Toriyama likes to fool people with his puns?


This naming scheme for the portugal dub makes absolutely no sense at all, they screwed up early and screwed up even more later, well, it's the same dub that called the Kamehameha Onda Vital so I don't expect much.

In the Brasilian dub they used the logical and obvious naming scheme, which is keep everything intact.

The only change was Kame Sennin that became Kame Master in PT, which caused confusion for my younger self with Kami the god since the pronunciation is very close and E and I are basically interchangeable in our dialect in tons of situations.

Reading both sides it appears that Kuririn is the right way to do it which is to be expected.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:33 am

I'm more concerned with the process than with accuracy. Using the Portugal and French dub's flawed translation to disapprove of how Kuririn is supposed to be read isn't logical because the former two weren't used to justify it. Those dubs were actually used to justify Kakarrotto with both R because they made the mistake of translating them to an L in their adaptation based on calotte. Just to make it clear that the rest of the logic in my post still stands.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:03 pm

Desassina wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:59 am
Kuri is supposed to be read as two consonants with a vowel in one go: "kri". In some cases, you only switch the R for an L when there are two syllables, such as in Metaru Kuura (Metal Coola). The U in Metaru replaces what we think is a third syllable with a sound that resembles Metal (only two syllables). Both U in Kuura separate the last syllable from the first, because two vowels are usually extended with an R sound, such as in Suupaa Saiyajin (with both U making it a distinctive Su- so that it's not "spar"). However, since the extended R sound overlaps with -ra in Kuura, we end up with Cool-luh, so it makes sense to read Kuririn as Kril-inn. The English translation has made it simpler with Krillin, but not all names are correctly adapted.

And to answer the thread, before I'm accused of diverging, Vegetto as Japanese romanization reads like Ve-jeh-toe, as if the first two syllables had a silent first -e and sounded like "object". Vegetto is therefore not romanization, when in its place there is bejitto, which reads like Veh-jee-toh. I don't know which writing form better aproximates that sound in English, but I know that, in Portuguese, Vegito is correct. The problem being that we read Vegeta with an open second -e in Portugal, like Ve-jeh-tuh, so the fusion name doesn't match. You have to deal with compromise in order to keep the pun intact. The 90s Portugal dub solved this by calling him Vegeku (Veh-jeh-coo), with -ku coming from you know whom.

Also, with regards to Kakarotto or Kakarrotto, did you know that "kyarotto" means carrot, but can also be read as calotte, which is why the French and Portuguese translated his name as Cachalote? (they repeated the first syllable like Kakarotto). This is why I believe that if you want to force the sound of an R, so that it's not switched to an L, Kakarrotto suits his name best, but who knows whether or not Toriyama likes to fool people with his puns?
So ideally Kuririn is "Krilin"? This is definitely confusing and difficult to understand for me at least. Basically I just want to know which is the best way to have these names in English without losing anything from the original, for example none of this "Frieza" crap, when it's obviously "Freeza".
Desassina wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:33 am
I'm more concerned with the process than with accuracy. Using the Portugal and French dub's flawed translation to disapprove of how Kuririn is supposed to be read isn't logical because the former two weren't used to justify it. Those dubs were actually used to justify Kakarrotto with both R because they made the mistake of translating them to an L in their adaptation based on calotte. Just to make it clear that the rest of the logic in my post still stands.
This stuff really gets confusing after a while, eh?
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:58 pm
When I first watched it on Toonami back in 2002, I thought it was a weird way for combinding Vegeta and Goku. I thought it should have been spelled Vegetu instead of Vegetto. Ah to be young again.

As I started to research more of the series after it ended its toonami run, I found out Kakarot was actually Kakarotto in the japanese. So I was like "Oh that makes sense!"

So when Viz released volume 26 in 2006 and saw Vegerot, it bothered me a bit but overall it made sense. Viz probably realized they translated Kakarotto as Kakarot and wanted to keep it consistent. So when I thought about it that way, it didn't bug me as much.
I would have gone back and changed it to Kakarrotto in future releases to be honest.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

Aim wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:03 pm
So ideally Kuririn is "Krilin"? This is definitely confusing and difficult to understand for me at least. Basically I just want to know which is the best way to have these names in English without losing anything from the original, for example none of this "Frieza" crap, when it's obviously "Freeza".
No. The ideal, and ONLY sensible and logical spelling, is Kuririn. His name comes from a word that starts with "kuri" and a word that's spelled "rin". It's literally "kuri + rin = Kuririn". "Krillin" and all other such spellings are all along the lines of spelling Trunks' name "Tolankus" - completely ignoring what Toriyama was doing with the name and what source words he was using. I have NO idea what Dessina was going on about in that post you replied to, but he seems to be under the assumption that all thenames in Dragonball are just random mishmashes of syllables rather than plays on actual existing words from various languages. We don't spell the "Metal" in "Metal Coola" with an L because of some weird romanization rule he's trying to apply to other names as well, we spell it with an L because it's literally the English word "metal" and that word is spelled with an L.

(And if anything, "Frieza" is a MORE sensible spelling than "Krillin" - it's more on the line of "Bardock", where it's still recognizably "this here English word, just with some slight alterations", it's just that said alterations are different from what Toriyama was actually doing. "Krillin" is just a bizarro spelling that ignores everything about WHY the character is named what he is and just throws in some random anglizations of the various syllables. Like Tolankus. Or Ginew.)
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:30 am

Aim, this guy is so adamant about being right that you had better believe in him, and don't bother replying to me when people have no idea of what I'm talking about :lol:
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:46 am

Desassina wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:30 am
Aim, this guy is so adamant about being right that you had better believe in him, and don't bother replying to me when people have no idea of what I'm talking about :lol:
With all due respect, when both people responding to your post can't understand what you're trying to say, you might consider clarifying rather than posting smug smileys. Your posts honestly come across as if you're under the impression Japanese is just some imperfect method for writing English fantasy names rather than an actual language spoken by actual humans.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:09 am

Ok, I will clarify all of my examples with even more of them, because some Toriyama puns are born out of pronunciation (whose romanization we should transcribe), others from their written form (which we can translate), but one does not rule out the other when in fact they're both used. "With all due respect", I'm going to make this stupid easy to comprehend, and you'll have to make the best effort to read without bias:
  • Mr. Satan's real name "Mark"
    1. Romanization of its Japanese pronunciation = Maaku
    2. Pun intended through its romanization = Akuma
Note: both A in Maaku are extended with an R sound, the U after K is supposed to mark the end of a consonant sound, so the vowel doesn't get read in translation. The end result has nothing to do with the written pun. It's officially Mark.
  • "Mels" name from Merus
    1. Romanization of its Japanese pronunciation = Merusu
    2. Pun intended through its romanization = Surume
Note: both U in -ru and -su mark the end of consonant sounds, and in case you took an extra mile in translation, it would be fine as Mels when you can swap the -ru for an L in English. The end result has nothing to do with the written pun. It's not officially Surume.

In both of these examples, Toriyama built these names as puns of written words in Japanese, which is to say that he might have used its Japanese characters for their meaning to be different than the words that they were originally.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:32 am

Desassina, I have NO idea what you're trying to say. Are you under the impression there is one and only one "official" way of spelling these names, and that Aim was asking what this official spelling of Kuririn's name is? If so, that's not the case - Kuririn, Klilyn, Krillin, Krilin and Clirin are all equally official spellings that have been used in officially licensed products. So are spellings like Ginew and Frieza.

And that's not what the question was either, the question was what would be the ideal way to spell the name in a way that best represents Toriyama's intent with the name, with the official spelling "Frieza" being specifically brought up as a spelling that did NOT do so. And both "Krilin" and "Mels" most certainly don't either, both of them being names based entirely on native Japanese words.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:13 pm

No, actually, Krillin's official name is クリリン. You can't read that, because it's in Japanese, but you can transliterate (i.e. transform the Japanese characters in his name into Roman letters) into kuririn, which is only a middle step towards a complete translation into another language. It involves transcription (i.e. transforming the script to accommodate how it's read in a given language), which you can do by going backwards from words that you already know in English, to see how Japanese people pronounce them. I mean, Sonic the Hedgehog is not sonikku, but he's known for the English word and his Japanese name is ソニック. Saiyajin is not a Japanese word. It's a pun made of transliterated yasai, which means vegetable, but Saiyajin relates to it by sound.

NOTE: the Japanese characters in this post are for spelling. They're not the source writing.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:39 am

Desassina wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:13 pm
No, actually, Krillin's official name is クリリン. You can't read that, because it's in Japanese,
I can absolutely read that. Japanese is an actual LANGUAGE, it's not this bizarre cipher that needs to be decoded into English.

Nothing you post make any sense.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!

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