Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:12 pm

So would it be ok if I say Kanba instead of Cumber ?
Saiya-jin me, watashi ha kisama wo koroshimasu

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:12 pm

Desassina wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:09 am
Ok, I will clarify all of my examples with even more of them, because some Toriyama puns are born out of pronunciation (whose romanization we should transcribe), others from their written form (which we can translate), but one does not rule out the other when in fact they're both used. "With all due respect", I'm going to make this stupid easy to comprehend, and you'll have to make the best effort to read without bias:
  • Mr. Satan's real name "Mark"
    1. Romanization of its Japanese pronunciation = Maaku
    2. Pun intended through its romanization = Akuma
Note: both A in Maaku are extended with an R sound, the U after K is supposed to mark the end of a consonant sound, so the vowel doesn't get read in translation. The end result has nothing to do with the written pun. It's officially Mark.
  • "Mels" name from Merus
    1. Romanization of its Japanese pronunciation = Merusu
    2. Pun intended through its romanization = Surume
Note: both U in -ru and -su mark the end of consonant sounds, and in case you took an extra mile in translation, it would be fine as Mels when you can swap the -ru for an L in English. The end result has nothing to do with the written pun. It's not officially Surume.

In both of these examples, Toriyama built these names as puns of written words in Japanese, which is to say that he might have used its Japanese characters for their meaning to be different than the words that they were originally.
I remember seeing somewhere that Mr. Satan's real name was Mark, wow. So where does the "official" sources get things like "Beerus" and "Merus" from?
Adamant wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:32 am
Desassina, I have NO idea what you're trying to say. Are you under the impression there is one and only one "official" way of spelling these names, and that Aim was asking what this official spelling of Kuririn's name is? If so, that's not the case - Kuririn, Klilyn, Krillin, Krilin and Clirin are all equally official spellings that have been used in officially licensed products. So are spellings like Ginew and Frieza.

And that's not what the question was either, the question was what would be the ideal way to spell the name in a way that best represents Toriyama's intent with the name, with the official spelling "Frieza" being specifically brought up as a spelling that did NOT do so. And both "Krilin" and "Mels" most certainly don't either, both of them being names based entirely on native Japanese words.
I'm more so after the most ideal way to "translate" these names, like, official sources still use "Kefla" and "Special Beam Cannon", etc, so I'm certain it's safe to say we can't always just go by what "officially" sources decide to translate things as.

Kuririn is ideally left as "Kuririn" I'm guessing, Freeza is obviously "Freeza" and not "Frieza", I'm struggling to understand where Mels comes from though, what is up with translations ending up with "Beerus" or "Merus" when according to Mike the proper way is "Beers"?
Bebi Hatchiyack wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:12 pm
So would it be ok if I say Kanba instead of Cumber ?
Unless you want to say "Toranksu"?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:54 pm

Aim wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:12 pm
I'm more so after the most ideal way to "translate" these names, like, official sources still use "Kefla" and "Special Beam Cannon", etc, so I'm certain it's safe to say we can't always just go by what "officially" sources decide to translate things as.
Right. "Official" is sometimes "completely accurate and faithful" and sometimes "well it's close" and sometimes "we just made up something different entirely".

(And just to cover my bases here: fan spellings are likewise all three sometimes, too.)
Aim wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:12 pm
Kuririn is ideally left as "Kuririn" I'm guessing, Freeza is obviously "Freeza" and not "Frieza", I'm struggling to understand where Mels comes from though, what is up with translations ending up with "Beerus" or "Merus" when according to Mike the proper way is "Beers"?
Japan has begun retroactively adopting some of FUNimation's spellings, including "Frieza" (which I believe was first used in Japan for Battle Stadium D.O.N. in 2006, then went away for a long while, then came back).

Kanzenshuu decided on and went with "Beerus" first before there was a non-Japanese spelling used anywhere. FUNimation followed suit.

"Mels" is nothing and used nowhere; to Adamant's repeated point, that individual doesn't seem to know what they're talking about when they do make any amount of sense. We use "Merusu" here at Kanzenshuu; Viz uses "Merus". I don't think I've seen a non-Japanese spelling in Japan yet.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:28 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:54 pm
Aim wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:12 pm
I'm more so after the most ideal way to "translate" these names, like, official sources still use "Kefla" and "Special Beam Cannon", etc, so I'm certain it's safe to say we can't always just go by what "officially" sources decide to translate things as.
Right. "Official" is sometimes "completely accurate and faithful" and sometimes "well it's close" and sometimes "we just made up something different entirely".

(And just to cover my bases here: fan spellings are likewise all three sometimes, too.)
Aim wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:12 pm
Kuririn is ideally left as "Kuririn" I'm guessing, Freeza is obviously "Freeza" and not "Frieza", I'm struggling to understand where Mels comes from though, what is up with translations ending up with "Beerus" or "Merus" when according to Mike the proper way is "Beers"?
Japan has begun retroactively adopting some of FUNimation's spellings, including "Frieza" (which I believe was first used in Japan for Battle Stadium D.O.N. in 2006, then went away for a long while, then came back).

Kanzenshuu decided on and went with "Beerus" first before there was a non-Japanese spelling used anywhere. FUNimation followed suit.

"Mels" is nothing and used nowhere; to Adamant's repeated point, that individual doesn't seem to know what they're talking about when they do make any amount of sense. We use "Merusu" here at Kanzenshuu; Viz uses "Merus". I don't think I've seen a non-Japanese spelling in Japan yet.
Okay, so Mels is out of the question, Kuririn is left as is and Freeza is Freeza. So, Beerus, is that like the "Vegito" equivalent of "Vegetto"? Where did Beers come from then? Beerus is "Beerusu" in Japanese, right? Wouldn't it make sense to keep it as "Beers" or not? Can you explain why you decided to scap "Beers"? And Merusu, isn't that the Japanese way of saying things? ugh confuuuusinnngg. Still really interesting though.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 am

Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:28 am
So, Beerus, is that like the "Vegito" equivalent of "Vegetto"? Where did Beers come from then? Beerus is "Beerusu" in Japanese, right? Wouldn't it make sense to keep it as "Beers" or not? Can you explain why you decided to scap "Beers"?
Our typical methodology for spellings on Kanzenshuu is that we place a straight romanization in quotes until we decide on our own internal official style guide; therefore, we used "Birusu" to refer to the character for quite some time, because the information around him was contradictory and we couldn't seem to get a solid answer. "Bils" and "Beers" and "Beerus" were all in consideration for "our" spelling via internal discussions.

The Latin alphabet spelling of "Beers" first appeared in the program book for Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, which was available during its original Japanese debut (the film launched March 30, 2013).

Kanzenshuu originated the spelling "Beerus". We did so that same week on April 1, 2013 at 9:17 a.m. with Julian having the final say and deciding on it, after waffling for a bit on what we wanted to use "for real". We used the spelling "Beerus" because it preserved the original Japanese pronunciation, and brought out both pun sources: Yusuke Watanabe's original intention of Beerus being the "virus" that infected the Saiyans with evil, and Akira Toriyama's misunderstanding of it being a play on "beer".

FUNimation (and by extension Bandai Namco) used the spelling "Beerus" following us. It first appeared later that year in December as a spelling in promotional material for the video game Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Z, where Beerus and Whis first appeared "in English" ahead of the actual film's debut. Obviously that is the spelling they have used to this day for the English dub.

Steve Simmons uses "Beers" in the subtitle track corresponding to the original Japanese language on FUNimation's official DVD and Blu-ray subtitles.

We wrote an extensive and comprehensive article all about the name, which I would suggest you pause and go read in full if you haven't already; this article also addresses the "Bills" spelling.

(Incidentally, all merchandise in Japan now uses "Beerus".)
Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:28 am
And Merusu, isn't that the Japanese way of saying things? ugh confuuuusinnngg.
"Merusu" is almost certainly first and foremost a play on and anagram of 鯣 surume, dried shredded squid. This fits in with the Galactic Patrol name puns and is likely the exclusive source, despite what we later learn about Merusu.

As with Beerus, we wrote an extensive article about the Galactic Patrol name puns that I would recommend you check out, but it's worth pasting this bit:
The California winery Merus has been suggested by some fans as a possible source to indicate some type of heavenly connection for the character… but that is a specific winery, rather than a type of wine (or other alcohol) as would fit in line with other characters. If you search メルス with regard to wine in Japanese, you come across Melsheimer (メルスハイマー Merusuhaimā), a German family winery/estate, long before the California winery. There is some Latin etymology underneath the word "merus" referring to something undiluted or pure, especially wine… which is certainly neat, but remains a bit of a stretch.

Looking back over the entire history of the Dragon Ball franchise and the wide variety of name puns that have existed across all of its media, it seems extremely unlikely that Toriyama or Toyotarō would use a proper brand name as a name pun source.
Caleb Cook went with "Merus" for Viz. I don't know if that was an internal decision or a mandate from Shueisha. While it fits in with dropping a trailing "-u" sound like they did with "Gowasu" -> "Gowas" and "Zamasu" -> "Zamas", we didn't feel this was appropriate, since "Merusu" was a perfect anagram of a Japanese word as-is; if you remove a letter in the transliteration, you remove the fact that it's an anagram.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Cold Skin » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:52 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 am
Kanzenshuu originated the spelling "Beerus". We did so that same week on April 1, 2013 at 9:17 a.m. with Julian having the final say and deciding on it, after waffling for a bit on what we wanted to use "for real". We used the spelling "Beerus" because it preserved the original Japanese pronunciation, and brought out both pun sources: Yusuke Watanabe's original intention of Beerus being the "virus" that infected the Saiyans with evil, and Akira Toriyama's misunderstanding of it being a play on "beer".

Caleb Cook went with "Merus" for Viz. I don't know if that was an internal decision or a mandate from Shueisha. While it fits in with dropping a trailing "-u" sound like they did with "Gowasu" -> "Gowas" and "Zamasu" -> "Zamas", we didn't feel this was appropriate, since "Merusu" was a perfect anagram of a Japanese word as-is; if you remove a letter in the transliteration, you remove the fact that it's an anagram.
That explanation about the choice of "Beerus" is also the one given by the French translator in the Battle of Gods Anime Comics, basing it on the intended "virus" pun and Toriyama's misunderstanding with "beer".

Much like Caleb Cook, she chose "Merus" as the French adaptation, with a translation note explaining it comes from the Japanese "surume" meaning "dry calamari".

On a totally different note, but showing how translators around the world have their own interesting ways of adapting things and think hard about it before making a choice, she did not feel right with the concept of Migatte no Gokui being adapted to "Ultra Instinct" and came up with "Transcendantal Reflex" instead.
She explained on her Twitter account (and it's still there as pinned post) - although be mindful that this is my translation of her French words, so anything clumsy or approximative is probably on me!

"First things first, why not Ultra Instinct, which you can see pretty much everywhere? Because from my point of view, this adaptation is not precise enough. In Japanese, instinct is "honnô" (本能) and this is not a term you can see in the original text. So how to translate "migatte" then?
In this context, "migatte" goes with the meaning of an automatic action, something involuntary without any interference from one's conscience. But I didn't like how something "automatic" would sound, so I chose a close term with "reflex" (unconscious reaction preceding any thought process).
Gokui could be translated as "quintessence" [...]: the highest degree of an art, knowledge or technic, which you can access after having been initiated. This is a very solemn, pompous, grandiose term. When you think of that, "ultra" is somewhat reductive compared to the word "gokui".
In Japanese, Migatte no Gokui is a mouthful: this is a technic that is the sole priviledge of Gods, and they are proud of it. That's why I tried to bring that spriritual aspect when choosing a term from esotericism. Transcendantal conscience is a state one can reach through meditation. In the Zen branch, it's the equivalent of the Satori (悟), the buddhist awakening - which is also the first of the two characters to spell Goku (悟空).
Finally, I kept it long (almost the same number of syllables in the original version than in the French version), one reason being that I love to work on the rhythm and also to keep the author's intention as he chose a term that is willingly complex and mysterious.
When you combine the terms "transcendental" and "reflex", you get the sense of awakening to a superior state of conscience in which the body acts automatically without interference from thoughts, which is exactly what this technic is about."


Interestingly, the French translator(s) for the anime also made a major departure with Otta Magetta, renaming him as Goldoma since they thought the references should be transfered to the better-known (in France at least) Goldorak (Grendizer in the original), while still keeping the "ma" from Mazinger. Toei was apparently okay with that interpretation.
On the other hand, the French translator for all Dragon Ball books thought it was more related to the expression of surprise, writing the translation note "reference to the Japanese expression "ottamageta", which expresses surprise or fear". Shueisha was apparently okay with that interpretation. She hesitated a bit afterwards when seeing what Toei accepted on the anime side, but trusted her instincts and her own interpretation.

So, multiple interpretations seem to be accepted by various rightholders, although when translating the new volume recently, the French translator for the books posted a panel showing a new Metal Man explaining:

"This new character is called Bikkura Koita, a Japanese sentence expressing surprise. Meaning Otta Magetta was indeed a reference to an expression of surprise and not giant robots. I'm pretty glad I insisted on not having "Goldoma" in the manga."

But it shows that once again, there is an inconsistency about what can be allowed or on the contrary forced by the rightholders (such as the forced "Cabba" for example), with translators' freedom to adapt going from pretty large to near zero depending on cases.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 am
Our typical methodology for spellings on Kanzenshuu is that we place a straight romanization in quotes until we decide on our own internal official style guide; therefore, we used "Birusu" to refer to the character for quite some time, because the information around him was contradictory and we couldn't seem to get a solid answer. "Bils" and "Beers" and "Beerus" were all in consideration for "our" spelling via internal discussions.

The Latin alphabet spelling of "Beers" first appeared in the program book for Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, which was available during its original Japanese debut (the film launched March 30, 2013).

Kanzenshuu originated the spelling "Beerus". We did so that same week on April 1, 2013 at 9:17 a.m. with Julian having the final say and deciding on it, after waffling for a bit on what we wanted to use "for real". We used the spelling "Beerus" because it preserved the original Japanese pronunciation, and brought out both pun sources: Yusuke Watanabe's original intention of Beerus being the "virus" that infected the Saiyans with evil, and Akira Toriyama's misunderstanding of it being a play on "beer".

FUNimation (and by extension Bandai Namco) used the spelling "Beerus" following us. It first appeared later that year in December as a spelling in promotional material for the video game Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Z, where Beerus and Whis first appeared "in English" ahead of the actual film's debut. Obviously that is the spelling they have used to this day for the English dub.

Steve Simmons uses "Beers" in the subtitle track corresponding to the original Japanese language on FUNimation's official DVD and Blu-ray subtitles.

We wrote an extensive and comprehensive article all about the name, which I would suggest you pause and go read in full if you haven't already; this article also addresses the "Bills" spelling.

(Incidentally, all merchandise in Japan now uses "Beerus".)

"Merusu" is almost certainly first and foremost a play on and anagram of 鯣 surume, dried shredded squid. This fits in with the Galactic Patrol name puns and is likely the exclusive source, despite what we later learn about Merusu.

As with Beerus, we wrote an extensive article about the Galactic Patrol name puns that I would recommend you check out, but it's worth pasting this bit:
The California winery Merus has been suggested by some fans as a possible source to indicate some type of heavenly connection for the character… but that is a specific winery, rather than a type of wine (or other alcohol) as would fit in line with other characters. If you search メルス with regard to wine in Japanese, you come across Melsheimer (メルスハイマー Merusuhaimā), a German family winery/estate, long before the California winery. There is some Latin etymology underneath the word "merus" referring to something undiluted or pure, especially wine… which is certainly neat, but remains a bit of a stretch.

Looking back over the entire history of the Dragon Ball franchise and the wide variety of name puns that have existed across all of its media, it seems extremely unlikely that Toriyama or Toyotarō would use a proper brand name as a name pun source.
Caleb Cook went with "Merus" for Viz. I don't know if that was an internal decision or a mandate from Shueisha. While it fits in with dropping a trailing "-u" sound like they did with "Gowasu" -> "Gowas" and "Zamasu" -> "Zamas", we didn't feel this was appropriate, since "Merusu" was a perfect anagram of a Japanese word as-is; if you remove a letter in the transliteration, you remove the fact that it's an anagram.
Right, that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up. Back to Kakarot/Kakarrotto, how do you all at kanzenshuu say it? Would it be better to keep it as "kakarot", or "Kakarrotto/Kakarotto" to preserve "Vegetto"? Would "Kakarotto" be awkward in English? And what about the suggested "Cacarrotto" spellings by Robo? Thanks Mike, appreciate it.
Cold Skin wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:52 pm

That explanation about the choice of "Beerus" is also the one given by the French translator in the Battle of Gods Anime Comics, basing it on the intended "virus" pun and Toriyama's misunderstanding with "beer".

Much like Caleb Cook, she chose "Merus" as the French adaptation, with a translation note explaining it comes from the Japanese "surume" meaning "dry calamari".

On a totally different note, but showing how translators around the world have their own interesting ways of adapting things and think hard about it before making a choice, she did not feel right with the concept of Migatte no Gokui being adapted to "Ultra Instinct" and came up with "Transcendantal Reflex" instead.
She explained on her Twitter account (and it's still there as pinned post) - although be mindful that this is my translation of her French words, so anything clumsy or approximative is probably on me!

"First things first, why not Ultra Instinct, which you can see pretty much everywhere? Because from my point of view, this adaptation is not precise enough. In Japanese, instinct is "honnô" (本能) and this is not a term you can see in the original text. So how to translate "migatte" then?
In this context, "migatte" goes with the meaning of an automatic action, something involuntary without any interference from one's conscience. But I didn't like how something "automatic" would sound, so I chose a close term with "reflex" (unconscious reaction preceding any thought process).
Gokui could be translated as "quintessence" [...]: the highest degree of an art, knowledge or technic, which you can access after having been initiated. This is a very solemn, pompous, grandiose term. When you think of that, "ultra" is somewhat reductive compared to the word "gokui".
In Japanese, Migatte no Gokui is a mouthful: this is a technic that is the sole priviledge of Gods, and they are proud of it. That's why I tried to bring that spriritual aspect when choosing a term from esotericism. Transcendantal conscience is a state one can reach through meditation. In the Zen branch, it's the equivalent of the Satori (悟), the buddhist awakening - which is also the first of the two characters to spell Goku (悟空).
Finally, I kept it long (almost the same number of syllables in the original version than in the French version), one reason being that I love to work on the rhythm and also to keep the author's intention as he chose a term that is willingly complex and mysterious.
When you combine the terms "transcendental" and "reflex", you get the sense of awakening to a superior state of conscience in which the body acts automatically without interference from thoughts, which is exactly what this technic is about."


Interestingly, the French translator(s) for the anime also made a major departure with Otta Magetta, renaming him as Goldoma since they thought the references should be transfered to the better-known (in France at least) Goldorak (Grendizer in the original), while still keeping the "ma" from Mazinger. Toei was apparently okay with that interpretation.
On the other hand, the French translator for all Dragon Ball books thought it was more related to the expression of surprise, writing the translation note "reference to the Japanese expression "ottamageta", which expresses surprise or fear". Shueisha was apparently okay with that interpretation. She hesitated a bit afterwards when seeing what Toei accepted on the anime side, but trusted her instincts and her own interpretation.

So, multiple interpretations seem to be accepted by various rightholders, although when translating the new volume recently, the French translator for the books posted a panel showing a new Metal Man explaining:

"This new character is called Bikkura Koita, a Japanese sentence expressing surprise. Meaning Otta Magetta was indeed a reference to an expression of surprise and not giant robots. I'm pretty glad I insisted on not having "Goldoma" in the manga."

But it shows that once again, there is an inconsistency about what can be allowed or on the contrary forced by the rightholders (such as the forced "Cabba" for example), with translators' freedom to adapt going from pretty large to near zero depending on cases.
I thought Cabba was accurate? I have no clue where "Ultra Instinct" came from, did official translations get that from us fans or...?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:25 am

Aim wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
I thought Cabba was accurate?
The chracter's name is キャベ, which is キャベツ (cabbage) with the final syllable chopped off, so yeah, Cabba is the logical spelling. I have no idea why he called that inaccurate.
Aim wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
I have no clue where "Ultra Instinct" came from, did official translations get that from us fans or...?
"Ultra Instinct" is the English name used in the official Crunchyroll subtitles and on various Japanese merch, it was presumably invented by Toei or Shueisha. It's not a fan term.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:14 am

Aim wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
I thought Cabba was accurate? I have no clue where "Ultra Instinct" came from, did official translations get that from us fans or...?
In some countries, Kyabe and Cabe were used instead of Cabba, which comes from kyabetsu (cabbage). In the first case, its meaning was not taken directly into translation, but its written Japanese pronunciation instead, and much like kyarotto translates into carrot (or transcribes into calotte), Kya- was switched off for a Ca- and -be was kept as it is for the second case. In an English forum, you'll see me referring to him as Cabba, obviously.

Note that I'm not offering the "correct" way to say their names, just a few curiosities belonging to non-English speaking countries, where Mels would make sense even when it doesn't exist (that was my disclaimer by the way).

Ultra Instinct is an hilariously bad name for the transformation except in what it sounds like (i.e. cool). The Japanese name migatte no gokui translates into "mastery of self-movement" or "selfish doctrine", which means that Goku became selfless at first and moved by the will of his own body in an Ultra Instincts Omen state, so that he could master that self-movement technique in a state of awareness through the white haired transformation. The moves that he pulls off are more or less the same, except that, when he wants to attack, it's not his body that responds, but his will that commands.

Therefore, some fan translations are even better than the "official" ones, since they use Mastered Ultra Instinct and drop the Omen. Note that Omen only makes sense in Japanese where the technique's name describes the final state. Ultra Instincts should have been the Omen state in English.

It's like psychology's id, ego and superego. Look for their meanings in that context and you'll understand that Goku has reverted to his id and worked towards his ego.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:27 am

I've been all over the map with this. In my early-teen years, I'd exclusively use Funimation's spellings/names because those were the official English versions (who knew Toei would follow suit in today's world?). Then, in my mid-to-late-teens and on, I used Steve Simmons' spellings because that was the official English translation of the Japanese version of the series.

Then, I started dabbling in Japanese and learned how to read Hiragana and Katakana, and learned a bit about the language, so I tried to adapt it for what made sense for me. And I've still been all over with it: preserve the pun, preserve the translation, preserve the sound. I use "Kurilin" to preserve the pun and be able to make it sound like it does in English because "Kuririn" doesn't roll off the tongue nicely in English (I also justified this with his "Kulilin" hat in the Freeza arc).

I have a hard time with "Broly" and "Kakarot," so it is topical lol See, for a while I used "Broli," and it drove me crazy that officially, there were posters out there that used "Broly." Like, the official name of the movie is "Broly." So, I debated which I wanted to go with. The same thing happened with "Kakarot" rather than "Kakarrot" or "Kakarrotto" -- both were on the table for me. I wouldn't use "Kakarrotto," except in my mind, that's how I justified Vegetto's name. I'm thinking of switching to "Broly" and "Kakarot," though and here's why: I would use a name like "Broli" to preserve its pun as closely as possible, but that would be inconsistent because I don't use "Cacarrot" -- nobody does. If I'm looking to preserve the pun, how can I use any variation of "Kakarot/Kakarrot/Kakarrotto"? So, now that we have official media where "Broly" and "Kakarot" are in the official title, I'm going to go with those, especially because they're not really deviations of their intended names; those are both very logical translations (they preserve the sound of the names). If there was a video game called "Dragon Ball Z: Master Roshi," I'd be a lot more annoyed and reject that spelling, but it's really hard to justify not just spelling it the way it's written in the official titles for the movies/games.

For this same principal, I use "Jiren" instead of "Geran," which would be much more accurate to the pun (so long as it's still pronounced correctly). I do prefer "Cabba," as long as it's pronounced as "Cabbe" (like "cabbage" with the "ge" cut off), but I might waffle on that one too at some point.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Cold Skin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Adamant wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:25 am
Aim wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:17 pm
I thought Cabba was accurate?
The chracter's name is キャベ, which is キャベツ (cabbage) with the final syllable chopped off, so yeah, Cabba is the logical spelling. I have no idea why he called that inaccurate.
I never said it was inaccurate, it's just that it was forced when there were other ways, especially to preserve a bit of the intended pronunciation instead of having something largely different than Kyabe. Right now, someone who doesn't have a translation and hears "Kyabe" in Japanese is gonna say "who?". The pronunciation induced by the writing of "Cabba" is very different, people forget or simply don't know that it comes from "cabbage" and is supposed to be pronunced "cabay" if you cut the word short like the pun intends.

Back then, the translator and myself envisionned "Cabbe" as the best compromise for the name to keep the "cabbage" origin while still retaining something easily recognizable from the "Kyabe" Japanese pronounciation, similarly to how she kept "Bardack" probably to both be faithful to the Japanese pronunciation "badakku" while still being faithful to the pun on "burdock" too.

Plus, in French, hearing Cabba makes us hear "shopping bag" basically, which the translator said she disliked quite much and would gladly have it as a fair enough reason to avoid Cabba. But that adaptation was still forced on the released volume.

Similarly, she wanted the term "Super Saiyan God" but discovered it was forcefully corrected to the equivalent of "Divine Super Saiyan" in the release instead, so she used that term from then on to keep it coherent. For a while, she even had to consider if - out of coherency between the names of the various divine forms - she would have to invent a French name for Super Saiyan Blue when it would show up, which she ultimately decided not to do.

When you adapt a name, it's not about just "that's the way the pun is written, let's do the same!".
It's also about "does it also keep enough of the original pronunciation" and "does it also keep a coherency and the logic with the other names for similar things in the story" and even "does it lead to a possible unwanted meaning or confusion".

Coherency also influenced the way she named Zen-o for example: she didn't think any localized name would be logical when the cosmos hierarchy is otherwise made of Kaio or Kaio Shin for example. But at the same time, she couldn't just let "Zeno" when there was a very similar name (Zuno) involved around the same volumes, so she had to think of avoiding confusion for the readers with an extra dash, creating "Zen-o".

It's all a great deal of thoughts, I tell ya! It goes far beyond "it's written like this originally, so it must be written like that in the adaptation, doing the exact same thing". There are lots of things to consider that can impact the final name choice.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:41 pm

Cold Skin wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:05 pm
I never said it was inaccurate, it's just that it was forced when there were other ways, especially to preserve a bit of the intended pronunciation instead of having something largely different than Kyabe. Right now, someone who doesn't have a translation and hears "Kyabe" in Japanese is gonna say "who?". The pronunciation induced by the writing of "Cabba" is very different, people forget or simply don't know that it comes from "cabbage" and is supposed to be pronunced "cabay" if you cut the word short like the pun intends.
Sorry, guess I misunderstood what you were going for.
Cold Skin wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:05 pm
It's all a great deal of thoughts, I tell ya! It goes far beyond "it's written like this originally, so it must be written like that in the adaptation, doing the exact same thing". There are lots of things to consider that can impact the final name choice.
And oh, definitely. I believe I mentioned before that we got "Vejita" instead of "Vegeta" in Denmark, which was explained in the letter column as a very deliberate choice to ensure readers would pronounce is correctly.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:45 pm

Dragon Ball is a step more complicated because every character has a pun to their name, which creates a balancing act of priorities. "Do I retain the pun? Do I retain the pronunciation? Do I translate this word or leave it as-is?" I refuse to accept "Vegerot," for example, but lots of people like it because it "makes sense." Well, no matter how you slice it, his name isn't "Vegerot" and never was, so in this case, I'd rather it not make sense (adapted fro. Vegeta amd Kakarot) then to change the character's name.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:45 am

Yeah I agree that I would rather preserve the character's original name than change it to make more sense.

That goes for the puns as well. If they can be preserved, go for it, but if not, don't touch that name.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am

Cold Skin wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:52 pm
That explanation about the choice of "Beerus" is also the one given by the French translator in the Battle of Gods Anime Comics, basing it on the intended "virus" pun and Toriyama's misunderstanding with "beer".

Much like Caleb Cook, she chose "Merus" as the French adaptation, with a translation note explaining it comes from the Japanese "surume" meaning "dry calamari".

On a totally different note, but showing how translators around the world have their own interesting ways of adapting things and think hard about it before making a choice, she did not feel right with the concept of Migatte no Gokui being adapted to "Ultra Instinct" and came up with "Transcendantal Reflex" instead.
She explained on her Twitter account (and it's still there as pinned post) - although be mindful that this is my translation of her French words, so anything clumsy or approximative is probably on me!

"First things first, why not Ultra Instinct, which you can see pretty much everywhere? Because from my point of view, this adaptation is not precise enough. In Japanese, instinct is "honnô" (本能) and this is not a term you can see in the original text. So how to translate "migatte" then?
In this context, "migatte" goes with the meaning of an automatic action, something involuntary without any interference from one's conscience. But I didn't like how something "automatic" would sound, so I chose a close term with "reflex" (unconscious reaction preceding any thought process).
Gokui could be translated as "quintessence" [...]: the highest degree of an art, knowledge or technic, which you can access after having been initiated. This is a very solemn, pompous, grandiose term. When you think of that, "ultra" is somewhat reductive compared to the word "gokui".
In Japanese, Migatte no Gokui is a mouthful: this is a technic that is the sole priviledge of Gods, and they are proud of it. That's why I tried to bring that spriritual aspect when choosing a term from esotericism. Transcendantal conscience is a state one can reach through meditation. In the Zen branch, it's the equivalent of the Satori (悟), the buddhist awakening - which is also the first of the two characters to spell Goku (悟空).
Finally, I kept it long (almost the same number of syllables in the original version than in the French version), one reason being that I love to work on the rhythm and also to keep the author's intention as he chose a term that is willingly complex and mysterious.
When you combine the terms "transcendental" and "reflex", you get the sense of awakening to a superior state of conscience in which the body acts automatically without interference from thoughts, which is exactly what this technic is about."
Right, so "Transcendantal Reflex" is actually a much more accurate term? "身勝手の極意" seems like a really strange word that's hard to translate, since it basically means "The secret of selfishness"(?).
Adamant wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:25 am
"Ultra Instinct" is the English name used in the official Crunchyroll subtitles and on various Japanese merch, it was presumably invented by Toei or Shueisha. It's not a fan term.
It's becoming clearer to me that Toei doesn't care, from now on, let's just pretend we are the ones who need to come up with the best translations to settle on.

In some countries, Kyabe and Cabe were used instead of Cabba, which comes from kyabetsu (cabbage). In the first case, its meaning was not taken directly into translation, but its written Japanese pronunciation instead, and much like kyarotto translates into carrot (or transcribes into calotte), Kya- was switched off for a Ca- and -be was kept as it is for the second case. In an English forum, you'll see me referring to him as Cabba, obviously.

Note that I'm not offering the "correct" way to say their names, just a few curiosities belonging to non-English speaking countries, where Mels would make sense even when it doesn't exist (that was my disclaimer by the way).

Ultra Instinct is an hilariously bad name for the transformation except in what it sounds like (i.e. cool). The Japanese name migatte no gokui translates into "mastery of self-movement" or "selfish doctrine", which means that Goku became selfless at first and moved by the will of his own body in an Ultra Instincts Omen state, so that he could master that self-movement technique in a state of awareness through the white haired transformation. The moves that he pulls off are more or less the same, except that, when he wants to attack, it's not his body that responds, but his will that commands.

Therefore, some fan translations are even better than the "official" ones, since they use Mastered Ultra Instinct and drop the Omen. Note that Omen only makes sense in Japanese where the technique's name describes the final state. Ultra Instincts should have been the Omen state in English.

It's like psychology's id, ego and superego. Look for their meanings in that context and you'll understand that Goku has reverted to his id and worked towards his ego.
[/quote]
I've noticed in the manga, Cabba is "Cabbe". The whole discussion on UI has sparked an interest in the naming for it. Why can't the translators stick universally to one name most of the time?
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:27 am
I've been all over the map with this. In my early-teen years, I'd exclusively use Funimation's spellings/names because those were the official English versions (who knew Toei would follow suit in today's world?). Then, in my mid-to-late-teens and on, I used Steve Simmons' spellings because that was the official English translation of the Japanese version of the series.

Then, I started dabbling in Japanese and learned how to read Hiragana and Katakana, and learned a bit about the language, so I tried to adapt it for what made sense for me. And I've still been all over with it: preserve the pun, preserve the translation, preserve the sound. I use "Kurilin" to preserve the pun and be able to make it sound like it does in English because "Kuririn" doesn't roll off the tongue nicely in English (I also justified this with his "Kulilin" hat in the Freeza arc).

I have a hard time with "Broly" and "Kakarot," so it is topical lol See, for a while I used "Broli," and it drove me crazy that officially, there were posters out there that used "Broly." Like, the official name of the movie is "Broly." So, I debated which I wanted to go with. The same thing happened with "Kakarot" rather than "Kakarrot" or "Kakarrotto" -- both were on the table for me. I wouldn't use "Kakarrotto," except in my mind, that's how I justified Vegetto's name. I'm thinking of switching to "Broly" and "Kakarot," though and here's why: I would use a name like "Broli" to preserve its pun as closely as possible, but that would be inconsistent because I don't use "Cacarrot" -- nobody does. If I'm looking to preserve the pun, how can I use any variation of "Kakarot/Kakarrot/Kakarrotto"? So, now that we have official media where "Broly" and "Kakarot" are in the official title, I'm going to go with those, especially because they're not really deviations of their intended names; those are both very logical translations (they preserve the sound of the names). If there was a video game called "Dragon Ball Z: Master Roshi," I'd be a lot more annoyed and reject that spelling, but it's really hard to justify not just spelling it the way it's written in the official titles for the movies/games.

For this same principal, I use "Jiren" instead of "Geran," which would be much more accurate to the pun (so long as it's still pronounced correctly). I do prefer "Cabba," as long as it's pronounced as "Cabbe" (like "cabbage" with the "ge" cut off), but I might waffle on that one too at some point.
Right, so "Broly" is actually "Broli"? Kakarrotto I'm guessing is the most accurate for what we have a the moment, that being "Kakarot", haven't heard back from VegettoEX yet on that though.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am

Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am
Right, so "Broly" is actually "Broli"? Kakarrotto I'm guessing is the most accurate for what we have a the moment, that being "Kakarot", haven't heard back from VegettoEX yet on that though.
Broli's name is literally just the word broccoli without the "cco". Spelling it with an y makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am
Right, so "Transcendantal Reflex" is actually a much more accurate term? "身勝手の極意" seems like a really strange word that's hard to translate, since it basically means "The secret of selfishness"(?).
It's kinda complex and involves some wordplay. Herms explains in detail here, I'd say just read that post

And I'd just disregard Desassina's posts if I were you. He has no clue what he's talking about.
Last edited by Adamant on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:26 am

Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am
Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am
Right, so "Broly" is actually "Broli"? Kakarrotto I'm guessing is the most accurate for what we have a the moment, that being "Kakarot", haven't heard back from VegettoEX yet on that though.
Broli's name is literally just the word broccoli without the "cco". Spelling it with an y makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I mean the most popular spelling of Boo is Buu despite the obvious reference.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:26 am
Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am
Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am
Right, so "Broly" is actually "Broli"? Kakarrotto I'm guessing is the most accurate for what we have a the moment, that being "Kakarot", haven't heard back from VegettoEX yet on that though.
Broli's name is literally just the word broccoli without the "cco". Spelling it with an y makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I mean the most popular spelling of Boo is Buu despite the obvious reference.
"Most popular" tends to just mean "whatever that dub I watched used" and is not a relevant metric for anything.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:38 am

Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am
And I'd just disregard Desassina's posts if I were you. He has no clue what he's talking about.
Nice! :clap: Feel free to make your posts count without disparaging or even addressing others. I'm pretty sure that you have already been called to attention in this thread.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:41 pm

Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 am
Aim wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:19 am
Right, so "Broly" is actually "Broli"? Kakarrotto I'm guessing is the most accurate for what we have a the moment, that being "Kakarot", haven't heard back from VegettoEX yet on that though.
Broli's name is literally just the word broccoli without the "cco". Spelling it with an y makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Yes, it's true -- the Y makes no sense. But if we're going down that route, we need to spell Goku's Saiyan name as "Cacarrot" for the same reason. And "Geran." After all, anything else doesn't make sense.

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