Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:12 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:41 pm
But if we're going down that route, we need to spell Goku's Saiyan name as "Cacarrot" for the same reason.
As pointed out a couple times already - "carrot" is not カロット, it's キャロット. The "ka"s in Goku's Saiyan name are specifically NOT the first syllable in the word carrot.
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:41 pm
And "Geran."
Lots of people DO spell it that way. And it is absolutely a logical spelling. Nothing wrong with it.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:02 am

It's a convenient way to twist this thing, honestly. Obviously "Kakarot" is a pun on "carrot." As for "ブロリ," the "リ" can be "ri," "ry," "li," and "ly." So, yeah. Do the puns have to be that on-the-nose? Why are "Kakarot" and "Raditz" not "Cacarrot" and "Radish?" So, if those names could be modified a bit, so can "Broly."

Look, I'm with you and my preferred way of spelling it is "Broli," but I wouldn't say that "Broly" is wrong. And honestly, I would spell it that way of Toei didn't basically stick it in people's faces that Funimation's spellings are official. So, as it stands, there's a movie out there that's called "Broly," so I'm not going to go against the grain on that one. That's not a hill worth doing on. Besides, the casual fan wouldn't know why you're "misspelling" his name when it's out there on movie posters, so for the sake of keeping consistency, I've switched over to "Broly." It's one of those no harm, no foul things. It's not really an error and it retains the sound of the name, so good enough for me.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:21 am

My problem with FUNimation's "Broly" is they pronounce it like BRO-ly, when his name is a play on the word "broccoli". And I don't think the Japanese phonetics are an excuse. The "-ly" spelling obscures the pun even worse.

Who cares about an official movie poster? Accuracy is accuracy. Or if not accuracy, then spell it the way you want to spell it. Neither is "hard to justify".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:13 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:21 am
My problem with FUNimation's "Broly" is they pronounce it like BRO-ly, when his name is a play on the word "broccoli". And I don't think the Japanese phonetics are an excuse. The "-ly" spelling obscures the pun even worse.

Who cares about an official movie poster? Accuracy is accuracy. Or if not accuracy, then spell it the way you want to spell it. Neither is "hard to justify".
I think that's the best way to pronounce it. That is how it's pronounced in Japanese. Kind of like how Vegeta isn't "Vej-ta" like how we'd pronounce "vegetable." See, it's all situational; I would say they "Baby" is the correct way of saying his name instead of "Bebi" because... it makes more sense. Maybe because it's a real word? But mostly, I'm in favor of the pronunciaron being as close as possible. To me, pronunciaron takes precedent over some stupid-ass pun. These name puns are one of the dumbest things about DB and they've brought nothing interesting, amusing, or funny to the table except further confusion when translating.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:02 am
It's a convenient way to twist this thing, honestly. Obviously "Kakarot" is a pun on "carrot." As for "ブロリ," the "リ" can be "ri," "ry," "li," and "ly." So, yeah. Do the puns have to be that on-the-nose? Why are "Kakarot" and "Raditz" not "Cacarrot" and "Radish?" So, if those names could be modified a bit, so can "Broly."
Yeah, but... those names were modified by the actual creators. Goku's Saiyan name is "take the word carrot, replace the first syllable with a different one, then double it". Radits is "take the word radish, then replace the last syllable with a different one". But Broli is "take the word broccoli and remove the middle syllable"... so why randomly start spelling syllables differently from the source word? It's the same thing as with "Frieza" - it's just a dub company spelling a name differently from what logic dictates because they can.

I have no idea why they spell Radits' name with a z either.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:27 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 pm
I have no idea why they spell Radits' name with a z either.
I thought it was because of the small tsu in ラディッツ radittsu. Don't double consonant words ending with an 'S' sound get adapted into Zs from time to time?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:55 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:27 pm
Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 pm
I have no idea why they spell Radits' name with a z either.
I thought it was because of the small tsu in ラディッツ radittsu. Don't double consonant words ending with an 'S' sound get adapted into Zs from time to time?
Radish is ラディッシュ, Radits' name is ラディッツ. Toriyama just swapped the shu (シュ) for a tsu (ツ).

Do any non-English translations even use "Raditz"? Carlsen used Radits, and I'm pretty sure at least a decent number of other European publishers did as well.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:43 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:55 pm
Do any non-English translations even use "Raditz"? Carlsen used Radits, and I'm pretty sure at least a decent number of other European publishers did as well.
Mmmm only relevant thing I have on hand is Carlsen's German DBZ Vol. 1 animanga (2008 release) which uses "Radditz".

Image

I feel like it was pretty consistently "Raditz" on Japanese merch and that just stuck over here. (This Carddass listing was the first thing that came to mind.)

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 pm

But there is a "zu" character: ズ. Again, it doesn't change the sound of the name, so we don't have to be so literal with it.

If I had to venture a guess, "Broly," "Frieza," etc. were done to try to move away from the on-the-nose name puns because they're -- I'm gonna say it -- dumb and don't add anything except giving them a silly name that nobody could take seriously. "Oh no, I'm being chased by a guy named Broccoli -- err -- Broli!" Eh. Might've been a conscious decision by Funimation, really. Changing the spelling doesn't completely negate the pun. We all know the pun on someone named "Soopir Kuul."

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:43 pm

Mmmm only relevant thing I have on hand is Carlsen's German DBZ Vol. 1 animanga (2008 release) which uses "Radditz".
Huh, that's interesting. I'm looking at German wikipedia, and it consistently uses "Radditz" as well, even in its article about the manga... yet Carlsen's Danish manga release was translated from German, and as mentioned, it used Radits. Pretty sure the Norwegian one did too.

Did the German manga translation really spell it that way? Now I'm curious.
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 pm
"Oh no, I'm being chased by a guy named Broccoli -- err -- Broli!"
They literally make that joke in the movie. Only time in the entire series there's some sort of in-universe acknowledgement that these names sound like existing words.
Last edited by Adamant on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:54 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 pm
But there is a "zu" character: ズ. Again, it doesn't change the sound of the name, so we don't have to be so literal with it.

If I had to venture a guess, "Broly," "Frieza," etc. were done to try to move away from the on-the-nose name puns because they're -- I'm gonna say it -- dumb and don't add anything except giving them a silly name that nobody could take seriously. "Oh no, I'm being chased by a guy named Broccoli -- err -- Broli!" Eh. Might've been a conscious decision by Funimation, really. Changing the spelling doesn't completely negate the pun. We all know the pun on someone named "Soopir Kuul."
On top of that reasoning, I've never minded "Frieza" because it also reads like a German word, drawing even more blatant Hitler parallels. Ever since joining this site I've slowly started gravitating towards "Freeza" purely because it's a little bit easier to type, I guess. With Broly, the westernised name just kind of epitomises the character's inherent fratboy dudebro-ness -- it's BROly, duuuuude! Nothing against "Broli" though, that's of course more accurate. To be honest, if I could distinguish the two spellings, I'd give the original version the "Broly" spelling and the modern version the "Broli" spelling, mainly because "Broli" looks softer and calls to mind the broccoli pun, which makes more visual sense to me because his colour scheme is primarily green.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm

Would preserving the Broli pun also require mispronouncing it as "Brah-li" too, though? Then again if you're black, from New York, and discovered the character before Movie 8 was dubbed you pronounce it that way anyway :lol:
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:58 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm
Would preserving the Broli pun also require mispronouncing it as "Brah-li" too, though? Then again if you're black, from New York, and discovered the character before Movie 8 was dubbed you pronounce it that way anyway :lol:
Mate, I've heard it pronounced all sorts of ways -- BROly, broLY, Brah-li, Brolly, Burori... :lol:
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Cold Skin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:23 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:43 pm
Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:55 pm
Do any non-English translations even use "Raditz"? Carlsen used Radits, and I'm pretty sure at least a decent number of other European publishers did as well.
Mmmm only relevant thing I have on hand is Carlsen's German DBZ Vol. 1 animanga (2008 release) which uses "Radditz".
Raditz is the official French name, both for the anime translators and for the manga (and all the books and guides since the early 2000s) translator.
So pretty much anything related to him in France (anime dub, manga, guide books, video games) uses "Raditz".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:12 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:55 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:27 pm
Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 pm
I have no idea why they spell Radits' name with a z either.
I thought it was because of the small tsu in ラディッツ radittsu. Don't double consonant words ending with an 'S' sound get adapted into Zs from time to time?
Radish is ラディッシュ, Radits' name is ラディッツ. Toriyama just swapped the shu (シュ) for a tsu (ツ).
Yes, of course. But there are many words ending in "Z" or at least "TZ" that are approximated in Japanese with the ッツ/ttsu ending kana. That's what I figured was going on with "Raditz".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by The Bastard. » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:36 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:55 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:27 pm
Adamant wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:30 pm
I have no idea why they spell Radits' name with a z either.
I thought it was because of the small tsu in ラディッツ radittsu. Don't double consonant words ending with an 'S' sound get adapted into Zs from time to time?
Radish is ラディッシュ, Radits' name is ラディッツ. Toriyama just swapped the shu (シュ) for a tsu (ツ).

Do any non-English translations even use "Raditz"? Carlsen used Radits, and I'm pretty sure at least a decent number of other European publishers did as well.

Brasil uses Raditz, Kakarotto, Vegetto, etc

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:20 am

If you look at what the name Tsufuru-jin is a pun of - i.e. furuutsu, which translates into fruits - you'll see that a double vowel before the -tsu will demand that its syllable ends with a -ts sound. What does this mean to Raditz? Look at a similar name in Katatz: they were both transliterated with a double T, both in radit- and katat- before the -tsu, so the sound of Z is supposed to enclose that of an S. The Japanese symbols have those slanted smileys to hint at that sound:

ラディッツ <- Raditz
カタッツ <- Katatz

In comparison to:

フルー <- Fruits
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:44 am

Desassina, Japanese is an actual language, it's not this weird English cipher for you to try to decode.

Please stop trying to "explain" things you don't understand in the slightest.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:32 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:58 pm
jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm
Would preserving the Broli pun also require mispronouncing it as "Brah-li" too, though? Then again if you're black, from New York, and discovered the character before Movie 8 was dubbed you pronounce it that way anyway :lol:
Mate, I've heard it pronounced all sorts of ways -- BROly, broLY, Brah-li, Brolly, Burori... :lol:
I’ve heard “Brawly” too

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:53 pm

Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:12 pm
As pointed out a couple times already - "carrot" is not カロット, it's キャロット. The "ka"s in Goku's Saiyan name are specifically NOT the first syllable in the word carrot.
Wait, so then, now we know that, what about double "R"'s? Kakarrot? Kakarrotto? Ideally would it be Kakarrotto?
Adamant wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:12 pm
Lots of people DO spell it that way. And it is absolutely a logical spelling. Nothing wrong with it.
Giren, isn't that like spelling Gero "Jero"? And if I'm correct the correct way to say Gero is "geh-roe", not "Je-roe". How does Kanzenshuu spell Jiren? I'm assuming it's said the same way as well.
TheGreatness25 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:02 am
It's a convenient way to twist this thing, honestly. Obviously "Kakarot" is a pun on "carrot." As for "ブロリ," the "リ" can be "ri," "ry," "li," and "ly." So, yeah. Do the puns have to be that on-the-nose? Why are "Kakarot" and "Raditz" not "Cacarrot" and "Radish?" So, if those names could be modified a bit, so can "Broly."

Look, I'm with you and my preferred way of spelling it is "Broli," but I wouldn't say that "Broly" is wrong. And honestly, I would spell it that way of Toei didn't basically stick it in people's faces that Funimation's spellings are official. So, as it stands, there's a movie out there that's called "Broly," so I'm not going to go against the grain on that one. That's not a hill worth doing on. Besides, the casual fan wouldn't know why you're "misspelling" his name when it's out there on movie posters, so for the sake of keeping consistency, I've switched over to "Broly." It's one of those no harm, no foul things. It's not really an error and it retains the sound of the name, so good enough for me.
I personally don't mind what Toei allows FUNimation to do, Toei doesn't care enough to correct them. If Broli is the "ideal" way to spell and say it in English, keeping true to the Japanese, then that's how it should be.

I have a question, in Japanese, is it "Kakarrotto", or "Kakarotto"? I know there's a syllable that can "extend" characters in Japanese if I recall.
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:21 am
My problem with FUNimation's "Broly" is they pronounce it like BRO-ly, when his name is a play on the word "broccoli". And I don't think the Japanese phonetics are an excuse. The "-ly" spelling obscures the pun even worse.

Who cares about an official movie poster? Accuracy is accuracy. Or if not accuracy, then spell it the way you want to spell it. Neither is "hard to justify".
People are using the phonetics as an excuse? Isn't "Broli" in Japanese "Bu-ro-ri", so it's basically "Br- o-li"?
jjgp1112 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:56 pm
Would preserving the Broli pun also require mispronouncing it as "Brah-li" too, though? Then again if you're black, from New York, and discovered the character before Movie 8 was dubbed you pronounce it that way anyway :lol:
I think the best way would be to stay true to the Japanese in saying it similar to how they would say it.
The Bastard. wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:36 pm
Brasil uses Raditz, Kakarotto, Vegetto, etc
Go Brasil :D
Desassina wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:20 am
If you look at what the name Tsufuru-jin is a pun of - i.e. furuutsu, which translates into fruits - you'll see that a double vowel before the -tsu will demand that its syllable ends with a -ts sound. What does this mean to Raditz? Look at a similar name in Katatz: they were both transliterated with a double T, both in radit- and katat- before the -tsu, so the sound of Z is supposed to enclose that of an S. The Japanese symbols have those slanted smileys to hint at that sound:

ラディッツ <- Raditz
カタッツ <- Katatz

In comparison to:

フルー <- Fruits
Shizen, how would one do "Tsufuru-jin"? "Tsufuit"? "Tsufruit"? "Tsufrurian"? :crazy: :think:
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