What is your estimation of Toriyama as a writer?

[UI Peter]

Do you feel that he's great, good, mediocre, bad, overrated, underrated, etc, any why?

[Vijay]

Toriyama is absolutely fantastic artist/drawer given his artwork & fight choreography still holds up till date. I've read quite a number of manga, and DB has one of greatest artwork/artsyle

As story-teller/ writer, Toriyama is both good & underrated. His flaws are often times researched, analyzed microscopically while his pros are neglected during discussions.

The fact DB is one of earliest shounen series, yet Toriyama broke many myths & traditions of typical shounen series and not falling into pitfalls of sterotypes that it's successors fall prey to, is nothin short of spectacle.

Ex: strongest guy have biggest body size, bad guys needs to have a ugly horrendous design, main character needs sad/emotional backstory in order to showcase them as deep, cool male character/anti-hero that caters to female fanbase etc

[UI Peter]

Toriyama is absolutely fantastic artist/drawer given his artwork & fight choreography still holds up till date. I've read quite a number of manga, and DB has one of greatest artwork/artsyle

As story-teller/ writer, Toriyama is both good & underrated. His flaws are often times researched, analyzed microscopically while his pros are neglected during discussions.

The fact DB is one of earliest shounen series, yet Toriyama broke many myths & traditions of typical shounen series and not falling into pitfalls of sterotypes that it's successors fall prey to, is nothin short of spectacle.

Ex: strongest guy have biggest body size, bad guys needs to have a ugly horrendous design, main character needs sad/emotional backstory in order to showcase them as deep, cool male character/anti-hero that caters to female fanbase etc

Most of the those "stereotypes" and cliches only became a thing after DB ended. Most other early Shonen like Saint Seiya didnt have those cliches either, and there's nothing particularly impressive about not using cliches that didn't even exist yet.

[kyppk]

Toriyama is a good writer, but not everything he makes is up to par.

[Kunzait_83]

The fact DB is one of earliest shounen series,

Shonen manga and anime had been around for numerous decades before DB ever existed. Calling it "one of the earliest Shonen series" is just plain factually not even remotely close to true.

Once again guys: Shonen is just a demographic, not a genre. Shonen, by its very definition, has existed for as long as artists in Japan were making comics and animation aimed at young children. And they were certainly doing that for a good many decades before DB ever came into being.

Hell, Weekly Shonen Jump first began publication in 1968 for fuck's sake, more than 15 years before DB existed. So DB isn't even remotely close to simply being the earliest Weekly Shonen Jump series!

yet Toriyama broke many myths & traditions of typical shounen series and not falling into pitfalls of sterotypes that it's successors fall prey to, is nothin short of spectacle.

Ex: strongest guy have biggest body size, bad guys needs to have a ugly horrendous design, main character needs sad/emotional backstory in order to showcase them as deep, cool male character/anti-hero that caters to female fanbase etc

As was already noted earlier, most of these things are cliches that came into being by Shonen series made AFTER DB had already ended. How is it in any way notable for DB to have not partaken in cliches that hadn't even existed yet?

Many Shonen series both of DB's time and prior certainly had their own share of cliches, but they in NO WAY vaguely resembled any of the ones you listed, since those really didn't come into prominence until the late 90s/early 2000s or so. Whereas DB ran from 1984 to 1995.

People seem to unconsciously lapse into acting as if DB was indeed somehow a peer of later Shonen franchises like Naruto, One Piece, etc. despite ALL of those other series having come into being WELL after DB had finished its whole original run.

[Matches Malone]

He's a great writer, someone who not only created a story that stood the test of time, but one that became the golden standard for the entire Shonen genre moving forward.

[Kunzait_83]

Once again guys: Shonen is just a demographic, not a genre.

Moments later...

He's a great writer, someone who not only created a story that stood the test of time, but one that became the golden standard for the entire Shonen genre moving forward.

More footage of Kunzait posting on Kanzenshuu

[KBABZ]

More footage of Kunzait posting on Kanzenshuu

Don't worry I listen!

I think Toriyama was great writing it back in the day, but I feel like sometimes a lot of stuff we give him a tad too much credit for where I think he was more like "hey this works" and didn't think too much beyond that. I think a lot of the non-manga character designs fall into this category honestly: a lot of them like the Fire-Eating Bird feel like the first thing that popped into his head.

[Matches Malone]

Once again guys: Shonen is just a demographic, not a genre.

Moments later...

He's a great writer, someone who not only created a story that stood the test of time, but one that became the golden standard for the entire Shonen genre moving forward.

More footage of Kunzait posting on Kanzenshuu

What else am I supposed to call manga like DB, Naruto, MHA, etc. ? I know Shonen may not be the correct definition, but it's what people use to describe these kinds of manga.

[Psajdak]

At this point shonen IS a genre too.

[Kunzait_83]

What else am I supposed to call manga like DB, Naruto, MHA, etc. ?

Simple: you call them by what actual genre they are. Because NONE of those titles you listed are within the same genre as each other whatsoever. We do this just fine with virtually EVERYTHING else: why does random stuff that happens to get published in Japanese children's comics function as some kind of bizarre exception to this?

Here, lets go down your list: DB, you'd call a martial arts fantasy (or Wuxia if you prefer). Naruto is a ninja fantasy (which is somewhat distantly related to Wuxia across cultures, but very much still its own distinct separate thing). MHA is a superhero manga (as is something like One Punch Man, albeit a more satirical one). Pretty simple and straightforward. We can go down any list of manga you'd like and probably be able to peg what genre they each fall into fairly easy. That's what you would then call them.

This isn't really that unusual or difficult to grasp: you can have a publication - in this case, Weekly Shonen Jump - that caters to a specific demographic (in this case, young grade school boys) while also featuring a veritable grab bag of a wide variety of different genres aimed at those kids. Death Note is a detective thriller, Captain Tsubasa and Slam Dunk are coming of age sports dramas, Rokudenashi Blues is teen melodrama about troubled youths, Drifting Classroom is straight up horror, One Piece is a swashbuckling pirate adventure, and so on. The only thing that really unites them via the Shonen label is the fact that they're written for and aimed at grade school-aged children.

Shonen Jump (or Young Jump or Business Jump, which are more adult/mature-skewing equivalents) are more in the way of pure anthology publications: they're not indicative of any one specific genre, but a whole host of different genres across a wide spectrum, with the main unifying theme being the age and gender that they're typically aimed at (and obviously crossover appeal is still a thing that happens of course).

What's always seemed to feed into and exacerbate this whole weird "Shonen genre" idea to me is how much more homogenized our own comic book industry is here in the Western/English speaking world compared to someplace like Japan: where here in the West, a GIGANTIC swath of our comics (or at least the most visibly popular and publicly known ones) tend to usually be superhero comics. But part of what makes Japan's comic industry so incredible is that it DOESN'T have that problem: children and adults alike read and are regularly exposed to a MUCH wider variety of genres in comic book storytelling than any one particular thing compared to here.

But because - particularly in America - we're so used to comics being so widely synonymous with one specific genre of storytelling, we seem to just reflexively project that same kind of homogeneity of our comics onto Japanese manga, and view them all as "Shonen", which we seem to (again almost reflexively) interpret almost as the Japanese equivalent of superhero comics. When... they're just demonstrably NOT that.

The reality is that most Shonen titles - as a broader whole - really AREN'T all that similar to Dragon Ball in the slightest. Hell, Mike/VegettoEX even made a pretty great, spot-on post a little while ago about pretty much exactly this. At best, many of them - particularly some of the more popular examples from the aughts - are simply just copying some of its vague story beats and its general quirky tone (while still being of very different genres than it) simply because DB both sold ridiculously well and was incredibly influential among aspiring manga authors.

Many times though, a lot of the perceived overlap or similarities that so many Western fans see between stuff like DB and MHA and whatnot tend to be wholly projected onto it, if not outright imagined and made up completely (like the whole friendship thing for a particularly glaring, notable example of this).

The whole idea of a "Shonen genre" is, from top to bottom, a complete and total myth, a fabrication that Western fandom (and really, only Western fandom from around the early/mid 2000s and onward: earlier Western fandom never did this largely because earlier Western fandom actually exposed themselves to more manga beyond popular children's manga) has entirely invented almost from whole cloth, thanks largely to an array of totally incorrect and misguided cultural assumptions about a broader foreign industry that most Western fans never even come vaguely close to attempting to get an even decently sized sampling of in their entire lives.

I know Shonen may not be the correct definition, but it's what people use to describe these kinds of manga.

Yes: and those people are all totally, 100% incorrect in doing so across the board. And it doesn't take a whole lot of reading or effort on the subject of manga as a broader medium (beyond the scope of popular WSJ titles in the U.S.) to plainly see that.

Just because a lot of people think or assume something, doesn't make it actually true.

Anyways... Toriyama's definitely underrated as a writer, though he's hardly perfect and has his faults. But he's definitely a gifted, born storyteller with a distinct and unique voice, and that shines through in more than just his art alone.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's hard to say, having not ready any of the man's other works. In Dragon Ball, I think he's a pretty good writer once he hits that sweet spot between settling into the series and being burnt out. I think the 22nd Budokai-Early Freeza Arc portion of the series hold up pretty well, although the Daimao stuff drags a bit. Once the fight with Freeza begins, though, I just get bored.

Where he really shines is in integrating the story (not necessarily the writing) and the art. In the proper format, his page layouts are fantastic. One example that has stuck with me for years is turning the page to see that Freeza survived the Genki Dama. I had chills.

[ABED]

Toriyama has a gift for mixing a lot of distinct elements in a blender adding his interests and quirks and making it all feel like a whole.

The simplicity of his stories are a net positive. He doesn't do a whole lot of world building and instead focuses on the things he does well - characters and action. The characters are memorable and well defined, the action comes from character, and is easy to follow. And by and large the fights Toriyama builds to end in a way that almost always feels cathartic.

[Locust]

Art wise - fantastic. Toriyama is an outstanding artist, really it's incredible how standout and iconic his art style is. I must also give attention to how he illustrates fight scenes, the sense of flow is inspiring

Writing wise - He's dropped the ball more than a few times (though what creator hasn't?) - but he has a great way of presenting his universe and had some incredibly interesting ideas and scenarios in Dragon Ball.
He's also excellent at writing humour, and that's harder than people think! Even reading some of the early parts of Dragon Ball or Dr Slump - I still laugh, so there's a certain amount of timelessness to his gags.
If I had to give a critique - I wish that he was a bit better at writing women (or maybe more accurately, I wish he gave women more attention during Dragon Ball).
But he's a solid writer, for sure
EDIT:

(well, usually. His attempts to play sexual assault for laughs are irksome, and always have been)

And this - knew there was something I forgot to mention

More footage of Kunzait posting on Kanzenshuu

Bless you for trying, I appreciate your attempts I really do

[Robo4900]

In this thread: Kunzait eloquently voicing my pet peeves.

Anyway, my estimation of Toriyama... In the '80s and '90s, he was great. He wrote fun stories with relatable, three-dimensional characters, and knew exactly how far to take a gag (well, usually. His attempts to play sexual assault for laughs are irksome, and always have been), though later on as we got to the end of the Dragon Ball manga, he somewhat started to lose his touch; the Cell and Boo arcs had a lot of great ideas, but the storytelling was just such a mess on the whole.

His writing for Super has been a mess.
As always, Toriyama has shown a penchant for great creativity; 12 universes, each one having a "God of destruction", the first one we meet being basically a divine cat with an angelic handler, who can be tamed by feeding them. Genius! The ultimate god of the universe is basically a petulent child who everyone, for some reason, keeps putting up with, so his decisions constantly result in utter chaos. Genius! A tournament storyline where the stakes involve an entire universe being wiped out from existence, all just to please that petulent child? Genius! Doing a storyline where the Dragon Ball villain is actually a three-dimensional character, whose descent from misdirected good intentions to outright evil is one we see? Fucking genius!

But, the actual moment-to-moment writing? The actual storylining? The plotting that could really make or break these ideas?
Well, BOG was executed like a damp fart. Loads of great ideas about gods, universes, deepening the Saiyan mythos, etc., and it's all just... A generally pleasant movie that doesn't really go anywhere on its own. ResF, the core idea itself was stupid, and the actual storytelling failed to justify its utterly stupid premise. Black arc -- great villain, great buildup, but the entire ending that the whole thing was building to as its crown jewel turned out to be a massive turd fired at mach 2 into a fan aimed in your direction. The two tournaments both try to make tournaments cool again by giving big universe-size consequences that have no bearing on anything in the franchise you actually care about, and those consequences are ultimately undone or subverted in the end anyway. Rather than building in the personal, character-based stakes of the old tournaments that really made them work (which these could have had, if it had come after a lot of buildup endearing us to the characters from the other universes), these tournaments are just repeatedly telling you "BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN IF OUR GUYS LOSE!!!!!!!!!!"... And then our guys win. What a surprise.
(Also, note: In 2 out of the 3 original tournament arcs in DB (3 out of 4 if you count the Boo one), the main protagonist(s) does not win the tournament)
And now the Moro arc feels like they're deliberately trying to jump the shark after it's already been jumped like three times already...

Finally, we come to the first legitimately worthwhile piece of new Dragon Ball media since the Buu's Fury video game, Super Broly. ALLEGEDLY Toriyama wrote a 3-hour draft of the script, then Toei's screenwriters merely slimmed it down without making any real changes, and we got the movie we got. Anyone who actually believes this is gullible as fuck. Toriyama has consistently demonstrated a shocking level of incompetence in his writing of Super. Characters are randomly thrown on screen (and onto the page, of course, since we have the manga as well) with no regard for any ideas of "arcs", "development", "characterisation", or "the presence of a character actually having a point in the story", and because of how overcrowded these stories are, everyone is flanderised to their most basic, simple, near-unrecognisable form... Goku is no longer the lovable goofball who loves to fight, he's Patrick Star with a black belt... I just cannot believe for a second that Toriyama is even remotely as responsible for Super Broly as many people claim when he did THAT to Dragon Ball. The characters in Broly all feel right for the first time since GT; Goku is actually reasonably smart and wise, he's just not very booksmart. The characters' presence is actually justified; the story mostly just focusses in on the characters who actually matter to this story, and all of them are not only thus given the proper space to characterise and have arcs, but the writing actually gives them arcs, characterisation... This is not the work of modern day Toriyama, this is the work of a talented screenwriter being given the seeds of some good ideas from Toriyama (probably in the form of a bloated, messy, first draft script) and turning that into a good movie.
Plus, food for thought for anyone who still doesn't believe me: How the fuck do you cut a full hour of a really good movie script without leaving huge, gaping holes in the story?... And yet there's no signs of anything being missing in the released movie, it actually feels quite leisurely on the whole... The answer: That full hour of movie was a whole load of unnecessary shit sprinkled throughout the movie, and nothing was lost by cutting it all.

TL;DR: Toriyama was a great writer in the '80s and '90s, but nowadays, he's lost it. I have massive respect for the guy, but I think he made the right decision in 1995 to end Dragon Ball at the Boo arc; he ran out of steam for Dragon Ball, and his 18 years away from it didn't give him any of it back. Granted, we've seen that, given enough time, Toei's writers can get to the seeds of his good ideas, and turn them into something worthwhile (Super Broly, for instance), and for that reason, I hope Super's future is in movies akin to what we got with Broly. I think that's the best way to handle this; let Toriyama continue to infuse his unique creativity and flavour into Dragon Ball, but let people who are actual screenwriters do the actual moment-to-moment writing... But give those writers enough lead time to do any heavy rewrites that may be needed. Because otherwise, we get another repeat of the Black arc.

[WittyUsername]

His writing is far from complex or nuanced, but it is quirky and unique, and his characters are pretty distinctive. Unfortunately, much of his writing can also be repetitive, as shown by how frequently the manga has Goku taken out of commission so that he could make a dramatic entrance later on to save everyone. Also, he’s not the best at remembering things. Still, in his prime, I wouldn’t say he was a bad writer. These days though, that might be a different story.

[Matches Malone]

BOG was a generally pleasant movie that doesn't really go anywhere on its own.

Toriyama was a great writer in the '80s and '90s, but nowadays, he's lost it. I have massive respect for the guy, but I think he made the right decision in 1995 to end Dragon Ball at the Boo arc; he ran out of steam for Dragon Ball, and his 18 years away from it didn't give him any of it back.

What do you mean by this ? The 3 main characters (Goku, Beerus, & Vegeta) have interesting arcs, we got fun scenes with everyone else, the action was on point, etc. Maybe you were expecting something different, but this movie gave me everything I've always wanted from a post manga Toriyama story.

I completely agree with this. 18 years or 50 years, it doesn't change the fact that DB as a story was completed in the manga. You might be able to get away with telling one or two more stories, but not what they're doing now.

In his prime, I wouldn’t say he was a bad writer. These days though, that might be a different story.

I think the biggest difference between now and then is that he's currently not writing anything, but rather giving vague outlines based on other people's ideas.

[ABED]

It's hard to say if he's lost a step as a writer since outlines aren't writing. That's thinking on paper. Also, I don't think he's done anything on the regular since ending DB.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Not the most complex nor though provoking writer out there but,he's smart enough to know about his weakness and (more of than not) never write that kind of stuff (romance, very serious stuff) and do what he's best at; telling very simple stories in simple but engaging ways.

[JulieYBM]

I think he's good at writing the type of stories he makes enjoyable. I don't want to say he's great in general but he definitely wrote some good shit that was different from the norm in how much his cynical attitude shone through. Really, I just think his ideas were interesting.

His art in 1988-1989 was incredible, though. Fee artists have ever understood panel flow as well as Toriyama and his art was always at its best when he used fewer lines and shading.