Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[Matches Malone]

My theory for WHY this is stems from the reactions to Super Saiyan 3 and 4, which at least in any of the circles I've been a part of have been rather divisive designs erring on the side of "ew no".

I think a recolor can work if it has something else going for it, like SsjG for example. At first glance it may just look like a recolor, but a closer look shows how creative Toriyama can be with something so simple. It keeps Goku's base hairstyle instead of his Ssj1 style, It can (could) only be reached through a ritual, It has (had) a time limit, & it results in the user getting skinnier. Now look at SsjB, it threw all that out for literally just a Blue Ssj1. That's the difference between being creative and being lazy, the form being simple or not is irrelevant.

[Locust]

I don’t know how relevant what I’m about to say is to the greater discussion, but I do sometimes get the impression that some people think that since Dragon Ball was made as a goofy fighting comic for kids, it means that it shouldn’t bother striving to be anything more than that. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who’s directly made that argument word for word, but it’s something that I feel is implied from time to time.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that Dragon Ball needs to be some super deep psychological story for adults, but I don’t see why it can’t aim to be just a bit more complex than what Toriyama is capable of writing. You can have entertainment for kids that still manages to challenge them on some level. Hell, the Bardock and Trunks specials are good examples of that.

I pretty much agree with this

Though, I think a lot of media falls into the "dark story = automatically more mature!" trap, so if that could be avoided, that'd be nice
A story can be lighthearted and still complex!

[UI Peter]

If anything I think the fandom expects too much from a franchise that should have stayed dead in 1997 and was only brought back for a cheap nostalgic cash grab.

I was referring to criticism of 80s/90s dragonball too.

[pepd]

Sure, but mainly by keep following it regardless of it's quality, something I can't really blame the majority of fans for doing. TBH most suggestions I've seen aren't any better; hell, even a lot of criticism I've seen focus on personal preferences/expectation and not real problems (not saying they are never addressed)

[Dbzfan94]

I don't understand the criticism about the designs. If SS God and Blue are just lazy recolors, then what would you call Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2? Super Saiyan 4 is the only form that isn't a simple iteration on the original SS design. Personally, I never got the love towards it. SS4 comes across to me as the over the top DeviantArt form, not the God forms.

They set the standard "look" for Super Saiyan and SS2 wasn't properly defined when it first debuted, so they a pass on it (whether SS2 is justified in this is up for debate). I think the best point of comparison is to look at Frieza, and to a lesser extent Cooler: each of their forms looks quite different from each other, with Frieza's final form being a radical departure from the others. Then Golden Frieza shows up and literally changes the colour. By the same merit Super Saiyan Blue is literally Super Saiyan 1 with the colours changed, seemingly put in to justify the movie having A Transformation in it for the good guys (and this not mentioning Rose). Think of if Piccolo got a radical transformation in the manga, and then in Super he gets two new forms that only swap out the colours; that's effectively what Super's done with Frieza and Super Saiyan thus far.

Pretty much this.Plus, Super Saiyan 1 is flat out not a recolor by definition, as it changes Goku's facial expression, hair and eyes. It's not drastic like 3 or 4, but its different. Blue and Rose are just that exact SS1 form but now blue or pink. The on;y Super Saiyan 1 recolor is Vegeta, as his hair stays the same.

Ultra Instinct, while "Omen" was fine as it was said to be a technique, "Mastered" became just base Goku with white hair. And while I dont like Red/God very much either, they at least tried to do something different with making it slimmer. And less I talk about "Bluer" aka Blue Evolution the better.

The deviant art forms were very much that. It would just be a stock image of SSJ2 Goku, turned the gi green, made the hair purple and "New form! Super Saiyan 7!" And there were countless variations of that. Freeza is probably the best example like KBABZ said. We knew that he was capable of goign beyond his '4th' form thanks to Cooler, and instead of getting a new design he becomes a piss yellow. Golden Cooler in Heroes looks even worse. There's a reason people joke that Freeza's next form will just be completely silver, or Goku's next form will be purple hair. Because that's what it's been reduced too.

[Matches Malone]

Freeza is probably the best example like KBABZ said. We knew that he was capable of goign beyond his '4th' form thanks to Cooler, and instead of getting a new design he becomes a piss yellow. Golden Cooler in Heroes looks even worse.

What makes Freeza worse for me is the fact that Toriyama himself is who designed Cooler's transformation, so we know for a fact he's capable of designing different looking forms for Freeza's race, yet for some reason he went with a recolor in RF. Cooler's transformation is by far one of the best looking designs by Toriyama, so it would've been great seeing it on Freeza as well.

[DBPirate]

I don't understand the criticism about the designs. If SS God and Blue are just lazy recolors, then what would you call Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2? Super Saiyan 4 is the only form that isn't a simple iteration on the original SS design. Personally, I never got the love towards it. SS4 comes across to me as the over the top DeviantArt form, not the God forms.

They set the standard "look" for Super Saiyan and SS2 wasn't properly defined when it first debuted, so they a pass on it (whether SS2 is justified in this is up for debate). I think the best point of comparison is to look at Frieza, and to a lesser extent Cooler: each of their forms looks quite different from each other, with Frieza's final form being a radical departure from the others. Then Golden Frieza shows up and literally changes the colour. By the same merit Super Saiyan Blue is literally Super Saiyan 1 with the colours changed, seemingly put in to justify the movie having A Transformation in it for the good guys (and this not mentioning Rose). Think of if Piccolo got a radical transformation in the manga, and then in Super he gets two new forms that only swap out the colours; that's effectively what Super's done with Frieza and Super Saiyan thus far.

My theory for WHY this is stems from the reactions to Super Saiyan 3 and 4, which at least in any of the circles I've been a part of have been rather divisive designs erring on the side of "ew no".

I can see where you're coming from on the Frieza and Piccolo comparison, but I wouldn't call Super Saiyan "a radical transformation". The hair's slightly different and the character's eyes change color. The villains -- Frieza, Cell, Buu -- are really the only characters with major transformations.

Plus, as far as I understand it, Frieza's "final form" is his normal form, while his other forms are just powered down so it makes sense to me that his following form is just a recolor, though I don't think that's an entirely fair description.

[kemuri07]

The problem is is that DB has written itself into such a corner that I don't think it can ever write itself out of. Dragon Ball has been around for such a long time that there are expectations that a franchise bearing the DB name needs to have. If you really wanted to get away from a lot of the baggage the series has garnered--throw the kitchen sink out. No more Goku, No more Vegeta--start a fresh and go from there. Hell, make a new series that takes place sometime after the DBGT finale with everyone dead and gone, and focus on a completely different perspective.

But that'll never happen because Toei likes its money and DB as is is guaranteed to make money. And as much as fans clamor for something new, I don't think it's what they want either. So it is what it is: DB as a franchise a is dead corpse that doesn't know it's dead. The best it can be is comfort food, and maybe that's fine. But we'll never get any where near the heights that the franchise was initially known for.

[ABED]

I've notice over the years that much of the fandom seems to knee-jerkingly dismiss any suggestions on ways to improve the writing of the series, even when they themselves are highly critical of it. For instance, many such suggestions are often dismissed with inane responses like "Dragonball is not an ensemble", "Toriyama wouldn't approve", "this is a kids series" or "lore is not story" when nobody was even mentioning lore lmao. Its like these enforce low standards on the series.

Does anyone else feel this way?

First, the suggestions are less than useless because they are being offered to people who aren't in any power to enact change.

And it's awfully nice of you to outright dismiss responses like "DB isn't an ensemble" or "lore is not story" as inane. By the way, lore is often not mentioned explicitly but that's usually what is meant.

Dragon Ball's fundamental issue is that it's long in the tooth after having long since past its logical endpoint. Attempts to recapture lightning in a bottle are futile, and nostalgia while it can lead to success doesn't lead to creativity.

[LoganForkHands73]

Golden Freeza only exists as a form of mockery towards the Super Saiyans. Freeza implies that he could have chosen the colour and appearance of the transformation, but decided to keep it simple purely so that the dumb monkeys would understand that he's stronger. He was probably also mocking the relatively tame physical change that the normal Super Saiyan transformation causes compared to his flashier, more monstrous ones.

I don't think giving Freeza an extra transformation anything like Cooler's would have worked. Cooler's "fifth form" is very much his own - since his "base"/fourth form is little more than an all-purple recolour of Freeza but with different ear-hole-things, the mask and horns gave him that distinct identity to set him apart as the no-nonsense bruiser compared to his classier, condescending brother. Freeza's 4F is simply too iconic to his character to bother changing too drastically at this point. While Golden Freeza isn't my favourite transformation (not so much the colour scheme but I mainly dislike the exaggerated brow - there's something creepily serene about 4F Freeza's sharp, unmoving eyes), it keeps most of the elements that make Freeza recognisable.

Toriyama could have done something completely different, but where do you really go with new Freeza transformations? Make him even punier? I guess they could have not bothered with new transformations at all, which could have actually made Freeza seem more threatening when he matches godly Saiyans in his plain old fourth form from Namek.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, Dragon Ball is at such a lucrative level that nobody in charge has to try to turn a hefty profit based on brand recognition alone and I'm of the opinion that it still generally turns out decent quality content with the current main Super brand, at least. I usually hate the phrase "let people enjoy things" when it is used to quell deserved criticism but if the majority are just enjoying something harmlessly, especially a lighthearted franchise like DB, it can be a fair reaction to relentless negativity.

[UI Peter]

I don’t know how relevant what I’m about to say is to the greater discussion, but I do sometimes get the impression that some people think that since Dragon Ball was made as a goofy fighting comic for kids, it means that it shouldn’t bother striving to be anything more than that. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who’s directly made that argument word for word, but it’s something that I feel is implied from time to time.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that Dragon Ball needs to be some super deep psychological story for adults, but I don’t see why it can’t aim to be just a bit more complex than what Toriyama is capable of writing. You can have entertainment for kids that still manages to challenge them on some level. Hell, the Bardock and Trunks specials are good examples of that.

This is exactly how I feel on the subject.

[UI Peter]

I don’t know how relevant what I’m about to say is to the greater discussion, but I do sometimes get the impression that some people think that since Dragon Ball was made as a goofy fighting comic for kids, it means that it shouldn’t bother striving to be anything more than that. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who’s directly made that argument word for word, but it’s something that I feel is implied from time to time.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that Dragon Ball needs to be some super deep psychological story for adults, but I don’t see why it can’t aim to be just a bit more complex than what Toriyama is capable of writing. You can have entertainment for kids that still manages to challenge them on some level. Hell, the Bardock and Trunks specials are good examples of that.

I pretty much agree with this

Though, I think a lot of media falls into the "dark story = automatically more mature!" trap, so if that could be avoided, that'd be nice
A story can be lighthearted and still complex!

True. You don't need to be "dark" in order to have any depth and substance. And a story being "dark" doesn't automatically make it more mature nor complex than a "light" one.

[ABED]

The Bardock and Trunks specials work because they aren't the norm for DB.

[JulieYBM]

A 26 episode series like the Trunks special or Bardock special will nevertheless still be aberrations in a sea of light-hearted storylines. Dragon Ball is something like 700 episodes long at this point, after all.

Anyway, I'd love an expanded version of the Trunks special that showed Future Gohan's point of view of the battle with Mecha Freeza, Gokuu's death, the death of the Dragon Team, Vegeta (maybe missing an arm or leg? An eye?!) training Gohan to become a Super Saiyan, then his death. That's maybe six episodes of story right there, then an expanded version of the Trunks side of the story could be told. Toss in Future Videl and Future Pan! Kill Gohan in Episode #9, then spend three or four episodes with Trunks, Mai and Videl trying to secure supply runs for human camps, Trunks learning to swallow his rage and not try to settle with the Artificial Humans, Blooma building the time machine and more. Voila, a 13 episode 'dark' Dragon Ball series in the making.

[Matches Malone]

The problem is is that DB has written itself into such a corner that I don't think it can ever write itself out of. Dragon Ball has been around for such a long time that there are expectations that a franchise bearing the DB name needs to have.

I think this is partly true, however, another issue DB is currently facing is the fact that it refuses to leave its safe zone. Every story starting with BOG has been more or less the Goku and Vegeta show. That wouldn't be a bad thing if done in moderation, but that's clearly not the case now, as we're on the 7th story arc to focus nearly exclusively on them.

One solution to this would be to break those 2 up into their own adventures, that way others will get the spotlight and things would change. For example, without Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo would be forced to take a more important role in Goku's story. Another solution is to simply move away from the current cast and focus on new fighters like what Boruto's currently doing, which is what they should've done after BOG.

[Psajdak]

New authors need to stop asking Toriyama for opinions, and just do something that they think will work in current era.

Completely new adaptation of original manga, but with completely different direction would do much better to modern DB, than, dunno, Toyotaro trying to be Toriyama 2.

[Matches Malone]

New authors need to stop asking Toriyama for opinions, and just do something that they think will work in current era.

Toriyama's name brings in too much money to replace him, and he's too big of a name for any new author to speak against. I've said this before and I'll say it again, no one's holding DB back creatively more than Toriyama. Look at Naruto , Kishimoto knew he didn't have it in him anymore, so he used the Boruto movie to set things up for the new staff and moved on, this is what Toriyama should've done with BOG. Instead, he's digging his feet (and this franchise) in the ground and refusing to move on.

[Skar]

My comment was noticed by VegettoEX !!! When I saw the notification, I was worried I broke a rule and that he was going to lay the administrative smackdown.

In particular, however, that above bolded emphasis of my own in the quote is another point I want to highlight. While there is fair criticism of communities to have the same conversations over and over and over again ad nauseam, it's generally due to new people coming in. Anime notoriously drives new fans in and out over the span of just a few years, and during those hot years of excitement, fans want to discuss every little aspect; it doesn't matter (or occur) to them (nor should it) that people have been literally having those exact same discussions for decades now.

That makes sense! I know when I first joined the forum that I was more active because it was my first time having a place to discuss DB in depth. That was after discovering the main site and reading all the interviews and guides. After a while, you get most of your opinions, theories, criticisms, etc off your chest so your activity usually slows down unless there's something new to discuss. I'm sure most of what I said over the years has been covered already in previous threads by older fans.

There are always going to be new fans who bring up the same topics because it's their first time discussing them and it's unlikely they'll look through hundreds of old threads to see if it's been covered before. I sometimes have a "I'm getting too old for this" feeling but I try to avoid these threads and let the new members have their fun. I don't want to risk giving a tired, dismissive comment because I've discussed it already and don't have anything to add. New members aren't going to feel welcome if they're trying to have a discussion and an older member tries to shut it down.

Back on the topic of this thread, all one line dismissive comments should be avoided. Nothing more frustrating than writing a long post and all you get a single sentence response that sounds like they only skimmed through it and only trying end the discussion. The way some people try to shut down criticism, it's like they're worried it might the influence the series somehow. Everyone is just giving their opinion on here and it's not like it anyone involved in the series is going to see it. Well I remember Sean Schemmel joined the forum once but no one with creative control over the series. If they can't offer a different point of view or anything that requires more than one line, it might be best to agree to disagree and move on to another topic. A lot of times it comes down to personal preference and you either like it or you don't. There were times where I disagreed with a post but I didn't have anything to add so I respected the difference of opinion and didn't interrupt the discussion. Anyway, sorry for going off on a tangent and if I had missed the point if your post.

[ABED]

The Trunks and Bardock special are great as is. No need to expand. Look how much more effective the opening scene of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade is in comparison to Solo even though both do effectively the same thing.

Every story starting with BOG has been more or less the Goku and Vegeta show. That wouldn't be a bad thing if done in moderation, but that's clearly not the case now, as we're on the 7th story arc to focus nearly exclusively on them.

One solution to this would be to break those 2 up into their own adventures, that way others will get the spotlight and things would change. For example, without Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo would be forced to take a more important role in Goku's story. Another solution is to simply move away from the current cast and focus on new fighters like what Boruto's currently doing, which is what they should've done after BOG.

Couldn't disagree more. Perhaps DB has become a two hander but that is in no way shape or form a bad thing. Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

And keeping Toriyama around is not about the damn money (not that that is even a problem to begin with). He's the author so of course his opinion will be given weight. The sense I get is AT isn't nearly as involved as you are implying.

[Jiren The Alpha]

"Stop hating what i like", "Stop liking what i hate", these two sentences sums up the DB fandom right now.