Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:30 pm

Isn't that pretty obvious? Look at all the lack of original ideas and designs in Super and yet people still like it.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by UI Peter » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:27 am

ABED wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:15 pm That's not the kind of thing I think about when I think "lore" but regardless it's a terrible idea. I don't like the whole "it's all connected" phenomena I see in sequels, like this or in the last 007 movie where Blofeld is revealed as the man behind everything. Can't Bond just have a bunch of disconnected adventures? Can't Beerus and Freeza be two antagonists without some prior connection? Can't Terry and Bruce have a connection without being related? Can't Rey just be a nobody instead of a Palpatine?
The answer is no in the case of the bolded, because both franchises hammered down how much blood/hereditary matters in prior installments. So there's no way Rey could have been a nobody, since none of the big players in the Star Wars franchise are nobodies. And Terry basically had to be connected to Bruce or someone else important to that verse in some way.

The entire point of the "its all connected" trend in sequels is to build or reinforce a myth arc for the entire series or franchise. The Bond example was completely forced and unneeded however.


The fact that Freeza is the emperor of Universe 7 and Beerus is its Destoryer God means they pretty much had to have some sort of connection in some non-trival way, though Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to wipe out the Saiyans was completely unnecessary.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:38 am

UI Peter wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:27 am
ABED wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:15 pm That's not the kind of thing I think about when I think "lore" but regardless it's a terrible idea. I don't like the whole "it's all connected" phenomena I see in sequels, like this or in the last 007 movie where Blofeld is revealed as the man behind everything. Can't Bond just have a bunch of disconnected adventures? Can't Beerus and Freeza be two antagonists without some prior connection? Can't Terry and Bruce have a connection without being related? Can't Rey just be a nobody instead of a Palpatine?
The answer is no in the case of the bolded, because both franchises hammered down how much blood/hereditary matters in prior installments. So there's no way Rey could have been a nobody, since none of the big players in the Star Wars franchise are nobodies. And Terry basically had to be connected to Bruce or someone else important to that verse in some way.

The entire point of the "its all connected" trend in sequels is to build or reinforce a myth arc for the entire series or franchise. The Bond example was completely forced and unneeded however.


The fact that Freeza is the emperor of Universe 7 and Beerus is its Destoryer God means they pretty much had to have some sort of connection in some non-trival way, though Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to wipe out the Saiyans was completely unnecessary.
Except the heredity thing was tacked on in both cases. Besides, Han was a nobody. What made him heroic was his choice to help his friend when he didn't have to. Terry was for the entire run of Beyond someone whose connection to Bruce was a kindred spirit. He clearly didn't have to be blood related to Bruce especially since that was added in a completely different series.

I'm well aware of why the trend happens. It was effective in Empire and maybe a few others but it's now a cliche that needs to die. The surprise is no longer novel.
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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm

I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."

And having Beerus be the actual reason for the Saiyan's destruction not only is fairly stupid, it also manages to defang Frieza by making him just another cog in the machine. Both are examples of lazy writing.




I actually did like the Batman Beyond reveal because the whole point was that despite being a clone of Bruce, he still ended up doing the right thing for his own reasons. The plot twist hinges on that familiarity with the trope, and absolutely deconstructs it. Showing just how fucked up it has to be to "make another Batman."

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:42 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm And having Beerus be the actual reason for the Saiyan's destruction not only is fairly stupid, it also manages to defang Frieza by making him just another cog in the machine. Both are examples of lazy writing.
It should be clear from the sum total of evidence that Beerus is not the "actual" reason for the destruction of the Saiyans - he's just one reason among many, and not even nearly the most important one - all the most important reasons for Freeza to do it are his own, and these reasons are the ones carried through all the media we have depicting the subject.

I get why people may not like it being there at all, but there's no reason to fixate on it and make it more important than the actual series does.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:53 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:42 pm
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm And having Beerus be the actual reason for the Saiyan's destruction not only is fairly stupid, it also manages to defang Frieza by making him just another cog in the machine. Both are examples of lazy writing.
It should be clear from the sum total of evidence that Beerus is not the "actual" reason for the destruction of the Saiyans - he's just one reason among many, and not even nearly the most important one - all the most important reasons for Freeza to do it are his own, and these reasons are the ones carried through all the media we have depicting the subject.

I get why people may not like it being there at all, but there's no reason to fixate on it and make it more important than the actual series does.
It's not so much that it single-handedly ruins Super, but its one example of many of why Super is nowhere near as compelling as the original series. It's not so much that I'm so upset by it, but I stand by what I say: It's a lazy way of hanging on to a far superior series by just saying "this new character totally had some part in this popular moment from another show."

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:07 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."

And having Beerus be the actual reason for the Saiyan's destruction not only is fairly stupid, it also manages to defang Frieza by making him just another cog in the machine. Both are examples of lazy writing.




I actually did like the Batman Beyond reveal because the whole point was that despite being a clone of Bruce, he still ended up doing the right thing for his own reasons. The plot twist hinges on that familiarity with the trope, and absolutely deconstructs it. Showing just how fucked up it has to be to "make another Batman."
I didn’t have a problem with the idea that Rey didn’t come from any special lineage, but I find it odd how the film tries to play that as some kind of unsettling reveal for her. I get her being upset that her parents abandoned her, but why would she tearfully remark on how “they were nobody”? At what point did she ever assume that her parents were some special and important people? That entire moment just seems way too meta for its own good.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not Freeza’s decision to kill the Saiyans was his own, I think the idea that he needed to get “approval” from Beerus to do so is pretty pointless.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:08 pm

On the contrary, the reveal that Beerus authorized Vegeta's destruction adds new layers to the storyline:

- Once again it's shown that Beerus is a sore loser, since he orchestrated the destruction of an entire planet simply because he was pissed off by King Vegeta (not a surprise, he's also the guy who destroyed another planet because they made bad food);

- It makes Frieza smarter, because now he has one more reason to destroy Planet Vegeta: appeasing Lord Beerus. This is a power move from Frieza's part, as the Emperor of the Universe it would be in his best interests to satisfy Beerus and earn the Gods' favour. Destroying Planet Vegeta does just that, it rids Beerus of a bothersome species to take care of. I believe Beerus even acknowledges how Frieza did him a favour, because he saved him the trouble of destroying Vegeta himself.

Besides Frieza is a mortal, he was always a mere cog in the machine created by the Gods. Even without Beerus he would have still been an ant compared to Supreme Kai, so this really changes nothing.
WittyUsername wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:07 pm Anyway, regardless of whether or not Freeza’s decision to kill the Saiyans was his own, I think the idea that he needed to get “approval” from Beerus to do so is pretty pointless.
Where was this stated? I don't recall Frieza needing Beerus' permission to blow up the planet, but Beerus simply authorized it because of their shared hatred towards the saiyans. The way I see it, Beerus would have let Frieza destroy the planet anyway, but by authorizing it he basically told him "what you're doing pleases the gods, please go ahead".

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:40 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:08 pm On the contrary, the reveal that Beerus authorized Vegeta's destruction adds new layers to the storyline:

- Once again it's shown that Beerus is a sore loser, since he orchestrated the destruction of an entire planet simply because he was pissed off by King Vegeta (not a surprise, he's also the guy who destroyed another planet because they made bad food);

- It makes Frieza smarter, because now he has one more reason to destroy Planet Vegeta: appeasing Lord Beerus. This is a power move from Frieza's part, as the Emperor of the Universe it would be in his best interests to satisfy Beerus and earn the Gods' favour. Destroying Planet Vegeta does just that, it rids Beerus of a bothersome species to take care of. I believe Beerus even acknowledges how Frieza did him a favour, because he saved him the trouble of destroying Vegeta himself.

Besides Frieza is a mortal, he was always a mere cog in the machine created by the Gods. Even without Beerus he would have still been an ant compared to Supreme Kai, so this really changes nothing.
WittyUsername wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:07 pm Anyway, regardless of whether or not Freeza’s decision to kill the Saiyans was his own, I think the idea that he needed to get “approval” from Beerus to do so is pretty pointless.
Where was this stated? I don't recall Frieza needing Beerus' permission to blow up the planet, but Beerus simply authorized it because of their shared hatred towards the saiyans. The way I see it, Beerus would have let Frieza destroy the planet anyway, but by authorizing it he basically told him "what you're doing pleases the gods, please go ahead".
I don’t see why Freeza’s decision to destroy Vegeta needs to be influenced by any outside factors. If you believe it makes the story more interesting, more power to you, but I personally think it’s a silly retcon that tries to make Beerus a more significant character.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:48 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:40 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:08 pm On the contrary, the reveal that Beerus authorized Vegeta's destruction adds new layers to the storyline:

- Once again it's shown that Beerus is a sore loser, since he orchestrated the destruction of an entire planet simply because he was pissed off by King Vegeta (not a surprise, he's also the guy who destroyed another planet because they made bad food);

- It makes Frieza smarter, because now he has one more reason to destroy Planet Vegeta: appeasing Lord Beerus. This is a power move from Frieza's part, as the Emperor of the Universe it would be in his best interests to satisfy Beerus and earn the Gods' favour. Destroying Planet Vegeta does just that, it rids Beerus of a bothersome species to take care of. I believe Beerus even acknowledges how Frieza did him a favour, because he saved him the trouble of destroying Vegeta himself.

Besides Frieza is a mortal, he was always a mere cog in the machine created by the Gods. Even without Beerus he would have still been an ant compared to Supreme Kai, so this really changes nothing.
WittyUsername wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:07 pm Anyway, regardless of whether or not Freeza’s decision to kill the Saiyans was his own, I think the idea that he needed to get “approval” from Beerus to do so is pretty pointless.
Where was this stated? I don't recall Frieza needing Beerus' permission to blow up the planet, but Beerus simply authorized it because of their shared hatred towards the saiyans. The way I see it, Beerus would have let Frieza destroy the planet anyway, but by authorizing it he basically told him "what you're doing pleases the gods, please go ahead".
I don’t see why Freeza’s decision to destroy Vegeta needs to be influenced by any outside factors. If you believe it makes the story more interesting, more power to you, but I personally think it’s a silly retcon that tries to make Beerus a more significant character.
Except it's not a retcon? None of Frieza's reasons for destroying Planet Vegeta are retconned. In the Broly movie he doesn't even mention Beerus, he simply explains he wants to destroy the planet because he's afraid of the saiyans, which was his original motivation. The reveal that Beerus authorized it simply enriches the lore and adds a new dynamic between Frieza and Beerus.

Besides, Frieza is the Emperor of the Universe, of course he would have some dealings with the Destroyer God Beerus. The destruction of Planet Vegeta happens to be one of these dealings between them.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:48 pmBesides, Frieza is the Emperor of the Universe, of course he would have some dealings with the Destroyer God Beerus. The destruction of Planet Vegeta happens to be one of these dealings between them.
He's the self proclaimed emperor, and just because he was powerful doesn't mean he would necessarily have dealings with a God of Destruction.
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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:53 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:35 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:48 pmBesides, Frieza is the Emperor of the Universe, of course he would have some dealings with the Destroyer God Beerus. The destruction of Planet Vegeta happens to be one of these dealings between them.
He's the self proclaimed emperor, and just because he was powerful doesn't mean he would necessarily have dealings with a God of Destruction.
Instead it turns out that, due to his already incredible power, and the fact that his empire controlled the vast majority of the universe, Frieza indeed had dealings with Beerus. Where is the problem with that?

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:44 pm

Considering how powerful Beerus is by comparison, why would he care about Freeza?
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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:52 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:44 pm Considering how powerful Beerus is by comparison, why would he care about Freeza?
He does not, that is why he let him terrorize the universe for decades. That does not mean that the two of them could not have some dealings at times. Especially when they had shared interests, such as in the case of the destruction of Planet Vegeta. And since Beerus is a very lazy god, of course he would appreciate if someone else did his job for him.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by UI Peter » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 am

ABED wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:38 am
UI Peter wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:27 am
ABED wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:15 pm That's not the kind of thing I think about when I think "lore" but regardless it's a terrible idea. I don't like the whole "it's all connected" phenomena I see in sequels, like this or in the last 007 movie where Blofeld is revealed as the man behind everything. Can't Bond just have a bunch of disconnected adventures? Can't Beerus and Freeza be two antagonists without some prior connection? Can't Terry and Bruce have a connection without being related? Can't Rey just be a nobody instead of a Palpatine?
The answer is no in the case of the bolded, because both franchises hammered down how much blood/hereditary matters in prior installments. So there's no way Rey could have been a nobody, since none of the big players in the Star Wars franchise are nobodies. And Terry basically had to be connected to Bruce or someone else important to that verse in some way.

The entire point of the "its all connected" trend in sequels is to build or reinforce a myth arc for the entire series or franchise. The Bond example was completely forced and unneeded however.


The fact that Freeza is the emperor of Universe 7 and Beerus is its Destoryer God means they pretty much had to have some sort of connection in some non-trival way, though Beerus being the one to tell Freeza to wipe out the Saiyans was completely unnecessary.
Except the heredity thing was tacked on in both cases. Besides, Han was a nobody. What made him heroic was his choice to help his friend when he didn't have to. Terry was for the entire run of Beyond someone whose connection to Bruce was a kindred spirit. He clearly didn't have to be blood related to Bruce especially since that was added in a completely different series.

I'm well aware of why the trend happens. It was effective in Empire and maybe a few others but it's now a cliche that needs to die. The surprise is no longer novel.
Its an awareness of the reality and importance of hereditary factors in life, not a writing cliche.

And even before Empire Strikes Back, The Force was stated to be something only a relative few in the whole galaxy could manipulate (and that Force Sensitivity was an inborn thing).

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by UI Peter » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:29 am

kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."
Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by The Bastard. » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:48 am

UI Peter wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:29 am
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."
Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.

Anakin was a son to a nobody, his father isn't even mentioned, so what's the difference? Someone being strong because they are is not something bad, Goku trained his whole life to get stronger, because he wanted better fights and because there's always someone stronger out there, Toryiama was just really smart to capitalize on something that was hinted for a long time to make the world, and it's threats, bigger.

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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:10 am

Gary Stu and Mary Sue, really?

Goku being a Saiyan doesn't work because it explains anything. It worked because it made a point about class and it opened up the world even more. You thought the enemies he fought were strong, wait until you get a load of these guys! You though Goku was special? Nope, he was a weakling among his race. And ultimately the point Toriyama makes is Goku isn't some chosen one, he has a natural gift but he sharpens and refines it through training until he's the best of his race.
Its an awareness of the reality and importance of hereditary factors in life, not a writing cliche.

And even before Empire Strikes Back, The Force was stated to be something only a relative few in the whole galaxy could manipulate (and that Force Sensitivity was an inborn thing).
It is absolutely a cliche. Nobody can seem to meet through circumstance anymore. Everyone needs to have some secret relation in order to justify something in the story. Sometimes it works, often times it doesn't. And sometimes elements in a story don't need explanation. They can just be. We didn't need the Saiyan reveal to justify Goku's strength. He was the main character and he was a wunderkind. That's a big reason the story followed him and it didn't need more than that.

The emperor was probably the strongest character we saw in the original trilogy and maybe prequels. Do we need some drawn out explanation why? No. He just was and sometimes that's okay.
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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by Planetnamek » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:05 am

UI Peter wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:29 am
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."
Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.
Every single time I hear the term "Mary Sue" mentioned in regards to a fictional character, I roll my eyes so hard :roll: . That term was originally coined to mock certain types of characters in FANFICTION, using it for actual real fictional works makes zero sense.
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Re: Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

Post by DevilKing99 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:42 am

Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:05 am
UI Peter wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:29 am
kemuri07 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:37 pm I'm with Abed since in both cases represent how nonsensical "world-building" can be. In Star Wars, the idea that Rey was actually a nobody, but became "somebody" through sheer will and talent is far more endearing than "lol I'm a Skywalker/Palpatine."
Except that doesn't work as a theme in Star Wars because of how The Force was potrayed to work in the series. Also, Rey being a random nobody who just-so-happens to be on par with the greatest Jedis & Siths who ever lived would have made her even more of a Mary Sue than she already is lmao, because there would have been no internal justification for her shown capabilities. Its the exact same reason why the reveal of Goku being a Saiyan at the start of Z was one of the best things Toriyama ever did for the character, because it retroactively justifies all of his feats & accomplishments he had prior to it and prevented him from being a Gary Stu.
Every single time I hear the term "Mary Sue" mentioned in regards to a fictional character, I roll my eyes so hard :roll: . That term was originally coined to mock certain types of characters in FANFICTION, using it for actual real fictional works makes zero sense.
And people just use it for characters they don't like.

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