Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

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Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:05 pm

This is the common understanding of Funimation's video masters:

In the '90s, Toei supplied Funimation with Digital Betacam transfers of film prints of the first ~20 episodes of DB, as well as the three original movies, for use in their 1995 dub with BLT. They were later given similar copies of DBZ for the first two seasons (and the related movies). Funimation then switched to getting materials from Latin America when they moved in-house, because it was cheaper.

However, I always found it quite curious that early DB and Z from the DVD singles looks very filmic. Almost like a proto version of the Levels. Whereas the later stuff looks more like what I'd expect from an old tape master.

But, the big thing I wondered about is where this mysterious Toei DigiBeta master came from. It's quite commonly known that Funi got their video materials in the syndication days directly from Toei. To be honest, I can't remember where I heard this first, but this has always been my understanding, and it's also very well established that in the in-house days they got DigiBeta video from Latin America...
But, it always struck me as odd that no one really knew where the Toei DigiBeta masters came from. Presumably they came from Toei transferring film prints in the '90s for foreign distribution?... But that never quite sat right with me. Particularly since they were sending film masters to France as late as 1995, the same year Funimation's first swing at Dragon Ball aired in syndication.

Recently, someone (I think JulieYBM? If you're reading this, Julie -- thanks a bunch!! :D) linked a video in a thread showing a behind the scenes look at DBZ from about 1998 (video title says 1996, but the show imminently airing on Cartoon Network is mentioned, so it was definitely filmed in 1998. Likely "1996" was a typo or something). In that video, Byron Watson, chief video editor of DBZ, and brother of the infamous Barry Watson (who is also interviewed in the video), explains:
Byron Watson wrote:We get the film from Japan, we transfer it in Dallas to Digital Beta, and then I take the Digital Beta, and we edit the shows together, then we send that to censorship people, and the censorship people make comments, they send that back to me, then I go through the show and fix all the video fixes that-- uhh, all the paint work.
(Click on the name for the relevant timestamped video. Link to the full video, for those who'd prefer to see the whole thing. It's quite short, only 6 minutes, and very interesting)

Byron Watson has no reason to lie here, nor does he have any reason to be wrong, as far as I can tell, and it makes perfect sense, really, that Toei would have just sent them film prints, which Funi then got transferred in a very basic way (that is, no real cleanup; watch the old DVD singles again, and marvel at all the tape marks everywhere), which they then worked on digitally to make the show as they needed. In those days, Toei deciding on a whim to scan all of DB+Z from film, even just from prints, would have probably been quite expensive, particularly since foreign licensors seemed content to just have film sent to them, and TV stations already had their own prints, which they could transfer to tape if they preferred to air it that way (funfact: To this day, in Japan, TV airings of DBZ are from a tape transfer of the original broadcast prints that was done sometime in the '90s or early '00s. My guess is it's just cheaper and more convenient for them to have done that than for them to have acquired the Dragon Box masters, and/or they did this before Dragon Box, and saw no reason to change).

This would also add another reason for why Funi would have chosen to switch to getting their video materials from Latin America instead of from Toei in Japan directly; the Latin American distributor (whose name I forget) had already prepared a tape master some time prior, likely transferred from their own set of film sent by Toei, so by instead acquiring pre-transferred DigiBeta from Latin America, Funi could save money on transferring film (which seemed to be a priority; Z episode 2 shows a marked decrease in transfer quality compared to the prior material from DB, as well as Z episode 1 -- and, remember, edited Z episode 1 uses footage from uncut Z 1 and 2, so the switch in transfer quality happens mid-episode in the original edited dub -- which suggests they may have switched to cheaper equipment, possibly they transferred to analogue tape first, then to Beta, or something else along that line. Money saving in general is also known to have been a big priority in Funi, to the point of them cutting major corners to make even small savings).

As for Funi acquiring film for the Orange Bricks in 2008; it seems they already had the first chunk of DB (roughly episodes 1-20) as well as at least the first episode of Z (likely the entire first 67, at least, since Byron Watson was talking about them receiving film in the video from '98), and the first movie of each of the two shows (though likely they had the first three of each). Probably at some point while they were working on the idea of doing "Season" releases, they realised that, while some of their episodes look stellar, a lot don't, so it would be very nice to re-transfer a lot of it... Of course, ideally, they would then have film of all 291 episodes of Z, so... My guess is they either purchased new film copies of all the remaining run of Z (as well as the remaining Z movies), or they bought out all the film the Latin American distributor had lying around that Funi didn't already have.
As for why Funi didn't bother transferring DB from film despite them almost certainly having access to it (they definitely had roughly the first 20, and likely could have easily acquired the remaining 133), I think that's just the usual non-Z apathy from Funi.

This isn't anything earth-shattering, but I find this quite interesting, so I thought I'd make a post about it. I'm curious to hear if anyone else has anything to add. :)

Anyway, TL;DR:
Funimation didn't acquire film of DBZ in 2008, they were sent a good bunch of DB and Z film back in the '90s by Toei. But they likely didn't have even close to a complete run of either series until 2008, at which point they likely acquired film of all the DBZ episodes they didn't already have film of. They most definitely could have completed their DB run too, but either they chose not to, or they hvae elected to not use their DB film since the creation of their original DigiBetas of those episodes back in the '90s.
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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Lightningexpose » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:01 am

I mean DBZ ep 1 on the old 4:3 DVDs looks very different from the rest.

By a lot of the fandom ep 1 is criticised for how it looks on these old DVDs and there was this notion that ep 1 of every release must be inferior quality.

But it actually looks better than the rest. It has way more grain than the rest of the series so that could be why people assumed it’s worse. But when it comes to so many other artefacts like chroma shifts and blurs as well as excessive ringing, ep 1 is the only one that doesn’t have this. So yeah, maybe funi did have film and ep 1 of Z on the old releases is the example? Not sure.

For DB it appears to be first 28 eps that look filmic then they get that very composite master look with the chroma issues, ringing and less grain.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by kei17 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm

I've never heard of this myth and I always thought that they've got their own film masters from the beginning. The reason is simple: From what I know, Toei had never provided any videotape masters to foreign countries when it comes to the TV series of DB and DBZ until they produced the DigiBeta masters in the early 2000s. Toei themselves probably had never had their own transfers until then.

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:05 pm(funfact: To this day, in Japan, TV airings of DBZ are from a tape transfer of the original broadcast prints that was done sometime in the '90s or early '00s. My guess is it's just cheaper and more convenient for them to have done that than for them to have acquired the Dragon Box masters, and/or they did this before Dragon Box, and saw no reason to change).
That is incorrect. The film prints for rebroadcasts have a usage history sheet attached to each reel, and its history doesn't date back to the original broadcast. The film reels themselves have a label with "再" (abbreviation of "rebroadcast") written on it, too. These film masters were printed specifically for rebroadcasts, and Fuji TV seems to have transferred them to videotapes around the end of the '90s or the early 2000s. They then disposed of the film masters, and some of these came to be in the possession of collectors including me.

The real film usage history sheet of DBZ episode 85:
Image

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:13 pm

kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm These film masters were printed specifically for rebroadcasts, and Fuji TV seems to have transferred them to videotapes around the end of the '90s or the early 2000s. They then disposed of the film masters, and some of these came to be in the possession of collectors including me.
So you have some of the actual film that the rebroadcast tapes were transferred from? Does your film happen to have the same kind of tinting that the rebroadcast footage has? I was thinking that the rebroadcast footage looked very tinted because of the film fading, so I'm curious to see if your film looks similar to that.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by kei17 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:16 pm

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:13 pm So you have some of the actual film that the rebroadcast tapes were transferred from? Does your film happen to have the same kind of tinting that the rebroadcast footage has? I was thinking that the rebroadcast footage looked very tinted because of the film fading, so I'm curious to see if your film looks similar to that.
They're yellow-tinted and really, really dark. Every film print from Toei that I've seen is remarkably darker than those from other companies like Shin'ei Douga. I understood why Funi's own film transfers always have the crushed blacks. The film footage itself is already dark as hell.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:22 pm

kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:16 pm They're yellow-tinted and really, really dark. Every film print from Toei that I've seen is remarkably darker than those from other companies like Shin'ei Douga. I understood why Funi's own film transfers always have the crushed blacks. The film footage itself is already dark as hell.
Tinted and dark, but the quality is still good. Something with this quality, but with a nice color correction would make for a great release.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Zestanor » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:40 pm

Excuse my ignorance: kei you’ve shown that film reels were used for airings until 2000 or so. ... What exactly would a TV station do with that film reel? I assumed they were sending video tapes around, since TV is video.

Also, your film shows four reruns within a few months of the airdate, and then not again until five years later. Were reruns that rare?

Also chuckled when I saw that it takes as many kana to write FILM as it takes letters.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by eledoremassis02 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:46 pm

soooo watching Matt O'haras interview and spotted this
Image
Image

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by VanceRefrigeration » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:03 pm

I wonder what Funimation's film was originally made for (or even when it was made). While it does have tints, they don't seem quite as strong as the tints on the rebroadcast film.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by kei17 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:36 pm

Zestanor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:40 pm Excuse my ignorance: kei you’ve shown that film reels were used for airings until 2000 or so. ... What exactly would a TV station do with that film reel? I assumed they were sending video tapes around, since TV is video.
The status of the film is written in next to each airdate, so I think they were still running the film reels in real time. Speaking of videotape masters, Fuji TV seems to have had their own recordings of the original broadcast until a certain point. They were used for promotional digest programs.

Also, your film shows four reruns within a few months of the airdate, and then not again until five years later. Were reruns that rare?
There must have been more reruns on local channels by using other prints originally produced for delayed broadcasts in remote areas.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Zestanor » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:29 pm

kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:36 pm
The status of the film is written in next to each airdate, so I think they were still running the film reels in real time.
Frankly this is blowing my mind. I assumed the guy at the station just popped in a videotape with the programs and commercials all ready to go and hit play. They must have had it down to a science in order not to run into technical difficulties all the time, switching the feed between film telecine and commercials tape at precisely the right time

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Lightningexpose » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:31 pm

kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:36 pm Fuji TV seems to have had their own recordings of the original broadcast until a certain point. They were used for promotional digest programs.
Damn this looks like they held onto Z well into GT’w run.

Imagine how amazing it would be if they were still holding onto these somewhere without even realising.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:27 am

VanceRefrigeration wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:03 pm I wonder what Funimation's film was originally made for (or even when it was made). While it does have tints, they don't seem quite as strong as the tints on the rebroadcast film.
I think the film would have been struck for the specific purpose of giving to foreign distributors, and/or TV airings. Basically, they were just general-use release prints, I think.
eledoremassis02 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:46 pm soooo watching Matt O'haras interview and spotted this
Huh. Is it just me, or does that say "Dragon Ball 41"?...

So, does Funi have film of all of DB after all?
kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm I've never heard of this myth and I always thought that they've got their own film masters from the beginning. The reason is simple: From what I know, Toei had never provided any videotape masters to foreign countries when it comes to the TV series of DB and DBZ until they produced the DigiBeta masters in the early 2000s. Toei themselves probably had never had their own transfers until then.
Indeed. It certainly does make sense looked at from that point of view, I'd just never thought about it much until I saw that video I linked in the OP. :)

When you say that Toei produced DigiBetas in the early '00s, do you mean the Dragon Box masters?
kei17 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:05 pm(funfact: To this day, in Japan, TV airings of DBZ are from a tape transfer of the original broadcast prints that was done sometime in the '90s or early '00s. My guess is it's just cheaper and more convenient for them to have done that than for them to have acquired the Dragon Box masters, and/or they did this before Dragon Box, and saw no reason to change).
That is incorrect. The film prints for rebroadcasts have a usage history sheet attached to each reel, and its history doesn't date back to the original broadcast. The film reels themselves have a label with "再" (abbreviation of "rebroadcast") written on it, too. These film masters were printed specifically for rebroadcasts, and Fuji TV seems to have transferred them to videotapes around the end of the '90s or the early 2000s. They then disposed of the film masters, and some of these came to be in the possession of collectors including me.

The real film usage history sheet of DBZ episode 85:
Image
Oh, really?... Interesting. I'd assumed Fuji had just kept the original broadcast prints and used those. Weird that they'd get a second set for reairings, before the eventual transfer to tape, but I guess it kinda makes sense. Were the original broadcast reels returned to Toei after airing?
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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am

I'm gonna be really mad if they have film for all of Dragon Ball and arent using it :lol: At they very least the Blue Bricks should have been a film scan if thats the case.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Zestanor » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:20 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am
I'm gonna be really mad if they have film for all of Dragon Ball and arent using it :lol: At they very least the Blue Bricks should have been a film scan if thats the case.
What exactly are the “digitally remastered” blue bricks then? The same video transfer that FUNi apparently made 20 years ago from the film they had the whole time? I had until now assumed that Toei gave them OK tape masters and they were just working with those. Guess not.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:53 pm

Zestanor wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:20 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am
I'm gonna be really mad if they have film for all of Dragon Ball and arent using it :lol: At they very least the Blue Bricks should have been a film scan if thats the case.
What exactly are the “digitally remastered” blue bricks then? The same video transfer that FUNi apparently made 20 years ago from the film they had the whole time? I had until now assumed that Toei gave them OK tape masters and they were just working with those. Guess not.
For the Blue Bricks it looks like they used actual film for the first 28 episodes but from 29 onward they just applied DNR to the digibeta tapes they already had and called it a day. GT was the same case - just DVNR to digibetas. In fact, wasn't Funi's GT footage digibetas of the Dragon Box source film?

And shit while we're at it, remember that one Funi single for the Cell Games actually using the Dragon Box master for an episode?!
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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:57 pm

Zestanor wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:20 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am
I'm gonna be really mad if they have film for all of Dragon Ball and arent using it :lol: At they very least the Blue Bricks should have been a film scan if thats the case.
What exactly are the “digitally remastered” blue bricks then? The same video transfer that FUNi apparently made 20 years ago from the film they had the whole time? I had until now assumed that Toei gave them OK tape masters and they were just working with those. Guess not.
I'm assuming so, there is no mention of any restorations in their booklets (like the Orange bricks). I think since Dragon Ball doesnt sell as well as Z they haven't taken the time to rescan the film. I just want a better release of Dragon ball.

Here is a screencap from the saga sets from Episode 41
Image

Compared to episode 13
Image

I guess it's possible they got the film later (but since that Barry Watson interveiw stated they got film and tranfered it to tape themselves, I'd say that's unlily). Frustrating none-the less.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:17 pm

Zestanor wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:20 pm
eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 am I'm gonna be really mad if they have film for all of Dragon Ball and arent using it :lol: At they very least the Blue Bricks should have been a film scan if thats the case.
What exactly are the “digitally remastered” blue bricks then? The same video transfer that FUNi apparently made 20 years ago from the film they had the whole time? I had until now assumed that Toei gave them OK tape masters and they were just working with those. Guess not.
"Digitally remastered", video-wise, is literally the exact same footage that was on the original DVD singles but zoomed in slightly and with a strong DNR filter. It's only "digitally remastered" in the same sense that those shitty "Remastered 4K 60fps DBZ opening HD [BEST QUALITY ON YOUTUBE]" videos are; that is, they're using existing sources but making them unspeakably shittier with some flashy filtering that they think might make it look appealing to the untrained eye.

The same is true for GT.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:53 pm For the Blue Bricks it looks like they used actual film for the first 28 episodes but from 29 onward they just applied DNR to the digibeta tapes they already had and called it a day. GT was the same case - just DVNR to digibetas. In fact, wasn't Funi's GT footage digibetas of the Dragon Box source film?
The first ~28 episodes that they have film for, presumably the Blue Bricks are indeed a Funimation film transfer... However, I'm pretty sure it's not a new transfer; it's just the old DigiBeta transfer they did in the '90s, but with massive DNR on top. My observation is that the only film transfers Funimation has bothered with since about 2003 has been Z for the movies, and the Orange Bricks (as well as the Levels, whose scans were then fully cleaned up sometime around 2013-2014ish, and those cleanups were then used, with shitty filtering and such, to make the Season BDs and 30th sets, as well as the new steelbooks)... DB's home video has all just been based off the old DigiBetas Funi has had since the '90s/early '00s, and GT's home video is based off the Dragon Box masters Toei gave them in 2003 (with some caveats relating to the "Step Into The Grand Tour" OP, but we don't need to get into that -- basically, it boils down to the fact that they also had an earlier tape master that Toei had previously given to France, Latin America, and various other places, before the Dragon Box transfer became widespread).
eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:57 pm I'm assuming so, there is no mention of any restorations in their booklets (like the Orange bricks). I think since Dragon Ball doesnt sell as well as Z they haven't taken the time to rescan the film. I just want a better release of Dragon ball.
TBH, the way for a "Better release of Dragon Ball" would be for Funi to just rerelease raw DVD represses of the DigiBeta masters they have; it would look better than the singles by virtue of better encoding, and better than the Blue Bricks by virtue of not being DNR'd to hell and back.

But either way, if they "remastered" DB from film, it would be just as shitty as their Orange Bricks, Season BDs, and 30th sets. Personally, I don't want that. Unless Funi can do things properly, and focus on the idea of restoring Dragon Ball from film, like on the Levels and the pre-filtering Season BDs/30th set masters, rather than "remastering" it like on the OBs/BDs/30th sets/steelbooks, then I don't want it, it'll just be shit.

That said, it is quite telling that, as proud as Funi are of their HD "Remastering", they haven't touched DB. They most certainly have film of the first 28, and may even have film of all 153 (and if not, they could have easily acquired it at the same time as they filled any Z gaps they had, assuming they had any gaps), so they could've done it at any time... But they chose not to. -_-

To be clear, I don't think Funi are an evil company who deliberately do anything malicious to the fans, but sometimes their ignorance baffles me. Do they think a "Complete, all 444 episodes" Blu-ray box set of DB+Z all transferred in genuine HD wouldn't sell?
eledoremassis02 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:57 pm
FWIW, the gallery I linked in the OP shows that episodes as early as Z #2 don't look as filmic as Z 1 and early DB, so DB 41 looking not-so-nice on the singles could easily be blamed on Funi using cheaper transfer equipment and/or using analogue intermediaries.
Certainly, while #41 looks no-where near as good as #14 there, there's a lot of grain still present, and overall it does bear a strong similarity to the less-filmic early Z episodes...

As I note in the OP, one could assume the DigiBetas Funi used after DB 28 & Z 67 are the Latin American transfers of the film that distributor was sent by Toei, but it's also possible that Funi just got film from Latin America, transferred it themselves in Dallas using yet-cheaper equipment than the later Saban run of Z, and thus they just always had film all along (except for GT, which they only ever had D2 and DBox masters of).
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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:45 pm

Id take a better encoded singles DVD anyday, but thats a pipe dream lol (looking at the first strike Dead Zone is night and day compared to the Pioneer DVD!)
Cheaper tape transfer is possible, considering they have episode 41 (if there isnt any gaps) they have atleast that much. Granted, the lack of interest in Dragon Ball from FUNI makes me believe that they would have little incentive to get any DB film stock wich they dont already have. It wouldnt shock me at this point if they do have all 153 episodes in 16mm.

My guess the initial higher quality episodes were tranfered in preparation for BLT's Dragon Ball run and the lower quality ones were FUNi's newer scans which would make total sence and fit in the the cheaper theory as they were already hit once by a lackluster raction to Dragon Ball.

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Re: Myth - "Funimation didn't acquire film masters of DBZ until 2008"

Post by kei17 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:29 pm

Speaking of the change in video quality in the original DB, my guess is that the early episodes were transferred when the BLT dub was produced, and the rest was done later, maybe in a cheaper way.

Zestanor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:29 pm Frankly this is blowing my mind. I assumed the guy at the station just popped in a videotape with the programs and commercials all ready to go and hit play. They must have had it down to a science in order not to run into technical difficulties all the time, switching the feed between film telecine and commercials tape at precisely the right time
It was probably automatic, though. Just setting up the reel by hand. The Japanese TV stations installed the automatic VCR control system very late compared to those in the US especially when it comes to the non-Tokyo-based local stations. A lot of commercials and programs were kinescoped or had two different masters in film and video formats for such channels up until the mid-'90s.

Examples:

Lightningexpose wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:31 pm Damn this looks like they held onto Z well into GT’w run.

Imagine how amazing it would be if they were still holding onto these somewhere without even realising.
That is still possible. Copies of this kind of recordings were sent to local stations for rebroadcasts, so there might be surviving copies lying in a repository.

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:27 am When you say that Toei produced DigiBetas in the early '00s, do you mean the Dragon Box masters?
Yes, but to be precise, the pre-remaster new print transfer also used for the DBoxes.

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:27 am Oh, really?... Interesting. I'd assumed Fuji had just kept the original broadcast prints and used those. Weird that they'd get a second set for reairings, before the eventual transfer to tape, but I guess it kinda makes sense. Were the original broadcast reels returned to Toei after airing?
I'm not sure about where the first prints went after the original broadcast. Maybe they were returned to Toei as you say.

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