How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

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How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by AlexSketchy04 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:48 pm

So, as everyone knows, Saban cut it's syndication part to focus on Fox Kids, meaning that DBZ was halted, later, it found it's home on CN, and the rest is history, however, how different would the show be if Saban still kept the show on Syndication/Moved it to Fox Kids, how they would have handle some of the edits, and how different things would be

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:57 pm

There likely wouldn't be an uncut version and home releases wouldn't contain the Japanese version, for one.Also a lot more censorship of the more brutal deaths/scenes and no blood. More of the same, mostly.

But ocean wouldv'e dubbed everything and the rest of the movies could have possibly been done by Pioneer like the first three were.

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Danfun64 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:15 pm

Let's say Funi never dropped Saban until at least after Z ended, and that Funi never dropped the Ocean cast until at least the same. You'd have a consistent dub from beginning to end, something that never happened in English (ignoring Kai). In addition, it's possible Pioneer might have done that uncut faithful redub which it was apparently planning to do before Funi cut ties with Saban, Pioneer, and Ocean in our timeline.

As for how different the dub would be, it would definitely be more censored then edited Funi was, and the episode count might have shrank further. A lot of the more famous dumb lines probably would have remained, but at least they would have given better performances than the Funi dub, probably also the Westwood dub.
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:10 pm

I don’t know why people think Funimation dropping Ocean is anyway connected to Saban dropping Funimation. Saban wasn’t paying the Vancouver actors, Funimation was. If Funimation continued to have Saban distribute the show in television they likely would have still switched to a local cast to save money.

It would have been more of the same censorship as the first two seasons just with the Texas cast and the Ron Wasserman score.

An uncut home video dub would likely still happen as Saban was only in charge of what was allowed on television

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:55 pm

Saban was later bought out by Disney in 2001, so Funimation would have ended their pathership with them anyways.
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Kakacarrottop » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:23 am

Ron Wasserman could have had more of a chance to prove himself to the people that didn't like his soundtrack for the first two seasons. He seemed to really like working on the show, and the whole concept behind it.

Maybe Saban also would have replaced Rock the Dragon with an new theme song for Season 3. They did that a lot with shows like Digimon and Power Rangers.
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Kuwabara » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:10 am

AlexSketchy04 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:48 pm
So, as everyone knows, Saban cut it's syndication part to focus on Fox Kids, meaning that DBZ was halted, later, it found it's home on CN, and the rest is history, however, how different would the show be if Saban still kept the show on Syndication/Moved it to Fox Kids, how they would have handle some of the edits, and how different things would be
I'm almost certain the series did air on Fox Kids affiliate channels in syndication, or at least I remember as much. Can anyone back this up?
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:14 pm

We kind of already know exactly how it would've gone.

If there was never a move away from syndication, I think Funi would have continued producing Z all the way to the end, exactly how we knew it in the first two seasons. Likely DB and GT would have been produced in exactly the same way too.
Ultimately, Funi didn't need to cut out Ocean when they moved to CN, but I think the only reason they did cut Ocean out was because there was a break in production that allowed them to rethink things and find corners to cut. Without that break in production, likely they would have continued to work with Ocean for the syndicated version, and with Saban still involved, Ron Wasserman would continue to compose the TV score, likely for the entire TV run of DB/Z/GT.

And with the TV version still being recorded as a cut dub only, Pioneer would have actually gone ahead with the uncut version of the show that was being planned (the only form of this we ever saw in reality was their uncut dub of the first three Z movies; after that, Funi cut ties with Pioneer to do everything themselves. In this hypothetical, Funi's ties to Pioneer wouldn't have been cut), and that uncut version would be the dominant version of the show today, though I think the cut version would have seen at least one complete DVD release, and show up on streaming and such here and there. (Funi would like this very much, since then they'd get to sell the show to fans twice!)

From the press archive:
Barry Watson interview wrote:Have you gotten a lot of feedback from people who’ve been fans of the series for a long time?

We have–we’ve gotten a lot of feedback, and for the most part, it’s been very positive, which we’re glad to see. I think a lot of people appreciate the fact that we are trying to keep as much as we can, and trying to keep the spirit of the original animation, within TV’s boundaries. I think most people have noticed that. And the show’s done extremely well–we were the number 1 syndicated show last week. Then again, obviously, there are some die-hard anime fans who would really rather see the uncut version, and for that we’re working with Pioneer. Pioneer is releasing uncut versions of the episodes as well as the TV versions, so for people who want to see the show uncut, that’ll also be readily available. For the uncut versions, they do a second recording–Pioneer basically oversees the anime script, and we coordinate to some extent with them.
[...]
So thanks for your support! Hopefully, together we can get many more episodes of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and eventually Dragon Ball GT on the shelves and available to everyone, both cut and uncut. Because as you know, Akira Toriyama’s Dragon Ball series is just unbelievably good!
The frustrating thing is, this would have been great for everyone; hardcore fans would have a complete, uncut DVD release standing as the dominant version with a very faithful dub on it alongside the Japanese audio with subs, and the nostalgic fans who most enjoyed the original TV version would likely have a complete DVD release of their version too.

Anyway, frustrations of this hypothetical aside, I think, so as to not "compete" with the TV version, and to make sure the actors weren't recording every episode twice within a few months, Pioneer would have likely done all the movies before starting on the series (they may have done the TV specials as well?). It's also possible that the TV dub would decide to skip DB, and instead Pioneer would exclusively cover that (partially due to the difficulty of censoring it for TV, and partially due to Gen Fukunaga's disinterest in OG DB), again giving a lot of room before Pioneer got to retreading what was already happening on TV, but also giving fans an incentive to buy the show on DVD (or VHS), since they would have 153 exclusive-to-video episodes of Dragon Ball releasing slowly. Then of course, the uncut version of Z would have as much fuss made of it as you'd expect. Likely it would come not all that long off the heels of GT, which would have received a lot of negative reception from its TV run, so fans would be happy to get back into Z, and experience it in its new, uncut form.

As for the TV version, I imagine Funi would have done DB and GT at about the same relative points in Z's run as they did in reality, but I think both would have been done with an approach far closer to the familiar Saban dub's approach. GT would have likely still skipped over most of the first 16 episodes in a Saban dub, but probably it would have been handled smoother overall, I think; rather than cutting the first 17 episodes into one special recap episode, they would have likely cut the first ~15 down into about 3 or 4 episodes. The rest would have seen general cutting and editing in the manner that we're familiar with in the Saban dub.

The cast would be mostly the exact same cast we know as "The Ocean cast" in the TV version, with some differences (I don't think Terry Klassen would have ever voiced Roshi, and I don't think Alistair Abell would have been cast as Trunks). The uncut version, much like in the Pioneer dubs of the movies, would also have some differences (most notably, I think they would have had a different Freeza).

OG DB would likely have seen Ron Wasserman lean more into the lighter side of his scoring that we saw a lot of examples of in his score of episode 1 (like the first 90 seconds here, as well as most of the rest of the track starting from here).

When Kai came along, probably they would have reused the Pioneer series dub recordings for the most part, with some retakes to cover lines that were changed between Z and Kai (in particular, most of the intro to Kai episode 1 would be new, and probably all the narration would be new). With the Pioneer dub already in existence, likely Kai wouldn't be as popular among hardcore fans, though casual fans would still love the faster-paced version, and it would still do quite well in the west.
Super and the new movies would be dubbed in Pioneer style, but with Funi more closely involved, so it's likely there would be some weird deviations here or there. It would still be solid stuff. A TV edit would be produced.
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:45 pm

I wonder if it would have went the way of the movies/FUNi inhouse where there was one dub completed for both cut and uncut versions, where was the TV version still would of stuck to the 2 episodes into 1 formula with the occasional re-dub to bridge things together or make a more TV-friendly approach.

Perhaps they would have redubbed Saiyan and Namek as they worked on later Namek/fight with Frieza? I think looing Pioneer was the biggest mistake to the English franchise.

On the ocean side of things, I wonder how different/the same later voices would have been (like 19 and 20 and Dr. Breifs becoming Scott McNeil) and changes like Roshi (was there any reason he was changed?) or if Kelamis would have stayed on longer if there would have been a burnout?

And most importantly, what would FUNimation look like today? Would they have developed their own in-house talent for other projects? Would Chris Sabat be a world-famous Opera singer?
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Planetnamek » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm

There would definitely be a lot more clumsy edits to remove violence, it was already getting pretty ridiculous as it was with how violent the Freeza Saga is. I wonder how many "Look we can see their parachutes!"-esque lines of dialogue to cover up death we would get.

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).


They didn’t fly any of the actors from Canada. The dub was recorded in Vancouver at Ocean Studios. Funimation studios handled the post production. The only one was doing any flying was Barry Watson flying back and forth to oversee the ADR prcess and direct the actors in Vancouver and then fly back to Texas to oversee the post production.

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Planetnamek » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm
Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).


They didn’t fly any of the actors from Canada. The dub was recorded in Vancouver at Ocean Studios. Funimation studios handled the post production. The only one was doing any flying was Barry Watson flying back and forth to oversee the ADR prcess and direct the actors in Vancouver and then fly back to Texas to oversee the post production.
Ah OK, also I think you may have accidentally posted in the wrong thread. :P
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:09 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:04 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:51 pm
Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).


They didn’t fly any of the actors from Canada. The dub was recorded in Vancouver at Ocean Studios. Funimation studios handled the post production. The only one was doing any flying was Barry Watson flying back and forth to oversee the ADR prcess and direct the actors in Vancouver and then fly back to Texas to oversee the post production.
Ah OK, also I think you may have accidentally posted in the wrong thread. :P
I was responding to your post in this thread so no?

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Planetnamek » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:11 pm

Right my bad, thought you posted in another thread.
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:40 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm
From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).
As MasenkoHA notes, one reason was that Barry Watson was tired of flying out to direct. The actual recording happened at the Ocean studio in Vancouver.

But, I always found this odd. I think large portions of season 2, at least, were directed by someone other than Barry Watson (the name Sarah Anne Dafoe is thrown around, but I recall Karl Willems also being involved), so there's nothing to say Barry had to be there, particularly with the Pioneer dubs showing that good work could happen with no direct Funimation involvement at all. I think it was mostly an excuse Barry threw around to justify firing their entire cast.

It seems to me that the truth is more like this: In the gap between the end of season 2 in 1997 and the beginning of season 3 in 1999, Funimation decided to take the opportunity to cost-cut as much as possible by cutting as many corners as possible; they moved to doing home video themselves, set up their own in-house cast in Texas, organised to get a local, cheap music producer to do the score, and it seems they also moved from acquiring film prints from Toei to transfer in Dallas for their own use, to having premade Latin American video transfers sent to them.
I doubt they would have had the time to do any of this cost-cutting if they didn't have the break.

Hell, even their inclusion of the Japanese version of the show, despite many seeing it as an upgrade over the previous DVDs, was likely handled in a cheaper way than it could have been; it's possible I'm remembering wrong (particularly since I can't find a source on it now), but I recall reading that, at that time, Steve Simmons was primarily an amateur translator/fansubber, so likely he was a lot cheaper than the professional that Pioneer hired for their uncut movie DVDs in 1997/1998, or indeed the translators whose work formed the scripts that were used for the BLT and Saban dubs. I may have this completely wrong, of course, but I'm sure I read this somewhere a while back.

The point is that, in the break, Funimation tried to make every aspect of DBZ as cheap as it could possibly be, in every possible way. I doubt there was any serious need for most of these changes, it's just how Funimation operated in 1999; they wanted things done as cheaply as possible, and in 1999, they took that to its logical extreme. And, purely from a business perspective, this was exactly the attitude they should have taken, and was an absolute masterstroke, even though we fans still complain about it from an artistic perspective 20 years later.

However, it's worth noting that Funimation didn't completely sever ties with the Ocean talent until after GT. They still worked with script-writers such as Terry Klassen as late as their GT dub, and Ocean did post-production on an alternate TV edit produced exclusively for Canada (which is likely what led to the production of the Westwood Media dubs).
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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:10 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:40 pm

But, I always found this odd. I think large portions of season 2, at least, were directed by someone other than Barry Watson (the name Sarah Anne Dafoe is thrown around, but I recall Karl Willems also being involved), so there's nothing to say Barry had to be there, particularly with the Pioneer dubs showing that good work could happen with no direct Funimation involvement at all. I think it was mostly an excuse Barry threw around to justify firing their entire cast.
I went and checked some episodes from season 1 and 2 but it appears Sarah Ann Dafoe and Barry Watson shared co-directing duties for season 1 and Karl Willems did season 2 and the movies (Watson was listed as a director but no longer a voice director and of course Watson’s names was nowhere near the Pioneer movies and I’m sure there’s no correlation between the improved quality of those dubs and the lack of Barry no sireeeeee)

There was of course no reason for Barry to fly back and forth. I’m pretty sure with the old Sailor Moon dub, which also had a similar arrangement of a USA based company outsourcing ADR work to a Canadian company the licensee created new music for the dub and demanded a PSA at the end of every episode but otherwise left the ADR studio to handle the dubbing.
It seems to me that the truth is more like this: In the gap between the end of season 2 in 1997 and the beginning of season 3 in 1999, Funimation decided to take the opportunity to cost-cut as much as possible by cutting as many corners as possible; they moved to doing home video themselves, set up their own in-house cast in Texas, organised to get a local, cheap music producer to do the score, and it seems they also moved from acquiring film prints from Toei to transfer in Dallas for their own use, to having premade Latin American video transfers sent to them.

That’s what it seemed like to me. Funimation was already making money but they realized they could make more money by cutting Ocean and Pioneer out of the pie.
I doubt
they would have had the time to do any of this corner-cutting if they didn't have the two-year break (a lot of which was manufactured by Funi themselves; DBZ was on Cartoon Network by mid '98, as I recall, so they let it sit in reruns for a little over a year before giving CN any new episodes).
I believe, dubbing for season 3 started around February 1999 going off some announcements on DBZ Uncensored archives. The VHS tapes started coming out in April and then the season premiered in September. (Possibly either Funimation or CN figured it would do better in the fall than in the summer?)
Assuming season 2 wrapped production in 1997, Funimation basically had all of 1998 to re strategize . That’s when they were able to make a deal with Cartoon Network and hired a local talent for Sleeping Princess and subsequently season 3 onwards.

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:40 pm
Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm
From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).
As MasenkoHA notes, one reason was that Barry Watson was tired of flying out to direct. The actual recording happened at the Ocean studio in Vancouver.

But, I always found this odd. I think large portions of season 2, at least, were directed by someone other than Barry Watson (the name Sarah Anne Dafoe is thrown around, but I recall Karl Willems also being involved), so there's nothing to say Barry had to be there, particularly with the Pioneer dubs showing that good work could happen with no direct Funimation involvement at all. I think it was mostly an excuse Barry threw around to justify firing their entire cast.

It seems to me that the truth is more like this: In the gap between the end of season 2 in 1997 and the beginning of season 3 in 1999, Funimation decided to take the opportunity to cost-cut as much as possible by cutting as many corners as possible; they moved to doing home video themselves, set up their own in-house cast in Texas, organised to get a local, cheap music producer to do the score, and it seems they also moved from acquiring film prints from Toei to transfer in Dallas for their own use, to having premade Latin American video transfers sent to them.
I doubt they would have had the time to do any of this cost-cutting if they didn't have the break.

Hell, even their inclusion of the Japanese version of the show, despite many seeing it as an upgrade over the previous DVDs, was likely handled in a cheaper way than it could have been; it's possible I'm remembering wrong (particularly since I can't find a source on it now), but I recall reading that, at that time, Steve Simmons was primarily an amateur translator/fansubber, so likely he was a lot cheaper than the professional that Pioneer hired for their uncut movie DVDs in 1997/1998, or indeed the translators whose work formed the scripts that were used for the BLT and Saban dubs. I may have this completely wrong, of course, but I'm sure I read this somewhere a while back.

The point is that, in the break, Funimation tried to make every aspect of DBZ as cheap as it could possibly be, in every possible way. I doubt there was any serious need for most of these changes, it's just how Funimation operated in 1999; they wanted things done as cheaply as possible, and in 1999, they took that to its logical extreme. And, purely from a business perspective, this was exactly the attitude they should have taken, and was an absolute masterstroke, even though we fans still complain about it from an artistic perspective 20 years later.

However, it's worth noting that Funimation didn't completely sever ties with the Ocean talent until after GT. They still worked with script-writers such as Terry Klassen as late as their GT dub, and Ocean did post-production on an alternate TV edit produced exclusively for Canada (which is likely what led to the production of the Westwood Media dubs).
I'll have to find the video, but there was a "recent" (Ian James Corlete has a beard) con where someone ask something along the line of why they stopped dubbing. And I think it was Scott McNeil who was basically like "Well, the guys down in Texas was looking to make it cheaper and Texas is a right to work state..." and you can hear Ian James Corlette hot mic with a "Yea, that sounds about right"

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by AlexSketchy04 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:54 pm

Kuwabara wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:10 am
AlexSketchy04 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:48 pm
So, as everyone knows, Saban cut it's syndication part to focus on Fox Kids, meaning that DBZ was halted, later, it found it's home on CN, and the rest is history, however, how different would the show be if Saban still kept the show on Syndication/Moved it to Fox Kids, how they would have handle some of the edits, and how different things would be
I'm almost certain the series did air on Fox Kids affiliate channels in syndication, or at least I remember as much. Can anyone back this up?
It was on the Saban block, but was disguised as part of the Fox Kids block in certain affiliates

I know that thing happened with Quack Pack and Samurai Pizza Cats

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by AlexSketchy04 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:58 pm

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm
There would definitely be a lot more clumsy edits to remove violence, it was already getting pretty ridiculous as it was with how violent the Freeza Saga is. I wonder how many "Look we can see their parachutes!"-esque lines of dialogue to cover up death we would get.

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).
They didn't sent the actors to Canada, they had Barry fly to Canada to supervise the recording

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Re: How different would the dub be if Funimation was still with Saban?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:27 pm

AlexSketchy04 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:58 pm
Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm
There would definitely be a lot more clumsy edits to remove violence, it was already getting pretty ridiculous as it was with how violent the Freeza Saga is. I wonder how many "Look we can see their parachutes!"-esque lines of dialogue to cover up death we would get.

From what I gather, Funimation stopped working with Ocean because they were tired of the expenses of constantly having to fly all of the VAs in from Canada to record their lines(that's also why Maggie Roswell stopped appearing on The Simpsons which led to Maude getting killed off as a result).
They didn't sent the actors to Canada, they had Barry fly to Canada to supervise the recording
As MasenkoHA notes, they almost certainly didn't have to fly him out, but they often did, at least in season 1.
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