I feel like the slow pacing for DBZ in the anime and filler works to its advantage

[precita]

I just recently watched all of Kai for the first time after having never seen it before. While I know the manga is also "fast" as well, I have to say after watching Kai...I honestly feel like the "slow pacing" of DBZ actually works to it's advantage.

While watching Kai I feel like things, "don't have time to breathe." Since the fights go by way too fast, it doesn't feel like the same tension is there as watching the original anime with everyone waiting to see, "what will happen next" or feel the struggle of the characters buying time waiting for Goku to arrive on Earth or on Namek, or the tension. Like for example the fights with Nappa and Recoome go by so fast in Kai I don't feel the same tension and sense of dread I had watching those in the original show (despite knowing what would happen and seeing those eps countless times).

Likewise for the filler eps in general, at least for the Saiyan saga and the training scenes in the Namek arc and in Cell, I feel like they're needed. I want to actually *see* the characters train, because we get to see their feats and struggles, and when most of the training is "off-screen" I feel like I don't get the same impact of how much stronger they had gotten. Besides that I think the Boo saga filler is among the best of the series, so I was sad to see a lot of that go as well.

Of course that's not to say the original anime didn't have it's problems. The pacing during Goku/Freeza is infamously known for being taxing at times, some filler like "fake Namek" is absolutely dreadful, and other filler eps are just average or forgettable at best. But as a whole, I think the original show has a better sense of tension and the slow pacing during fights and filler scenes works to its advantage. Also a lot of the comedic filler moments of the original show were cut in Kai, like seeing what the human cast was doing or Bulma/Roshi and the others, etc...I loved how a lot of those scenes broke up the continuous fighting.

Anyhoo, just my thoughts after watching Kai for the first time in 2020.

[MasenkoHA]

The fights in Kai never felt like they moved too fast tbh. Goku vs Freeza was still like 13 episodes iirc.

It’s the non-action scenes in Kai that suffer. Gohan’s turnaround in the Saiyan arc happens out of nowhere. One minute he’s terrified of climbing down a mountain and whining about being hungry the next minute (after waking up from being an oozaru) he’s jumping around cutting off dinosaur tails and ki blasting to start a fire and collecting berries from trees.

Since Kai skipped the original Dragon Ball and reduced it to a recap we have no real reason to give a shit about Yamcha and Tenshinhan and Chaozu when they die. In fact we have even less reason to care because their re introductions were removed.

What little development Vegeta and Bulma were given to lead to their off screen affair is gone so Bulma having his child seems even more random than it already was.

[Matches Malone]

I do agree that at times Kai can move fast, with that said though, Z is something I can never watch again, not only thanks to Kai, but other modern anime in general. Z's pacing was nothing short of terrible, and that's not because of the added filler, but rather the way it was handled. The original DB also had filler that slowed things down compared to the manga, but it never hurt the pacing of the show. Z's filler just killed it for me.

[WittyUsername]

I would’ve had more respect for Kai as a concept if it was actually committed to being more like the manga, instead of being selective about what filler gets cut out and what stays. It’s just ridiculous to me that they got rid of the scenes showing Gohan’s training, but kept nonsense like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma and Goku having those visions of a naked Vegeta.

People have argued that some of the filler would’ve been difficult to cut out, since Kai still uses the same footage as the old anime, but that sums up the fundamental problem with it. Kai at its core is just a cheap attempt at trying to cash in on the 20th anniversary of the DBZ anime. It didn’t surprise me when I learned that the show was made specifically because Toriyama didn’t want to work with Toei on a new Dragon Ball series at the time, so they decided to just repackage the old show. The only thing of note that came out of that show is that it gave FUNimation the chance to make a better English dub.

[Matches Malone]

Kai still uses the same footage as the old anime, but that sums up the fundamental problem with it. Kai at its core is just a cheap attempt at trying to cash in on the 20th anniversary of the DBZ anime.

If I had the option today, I'd take a remake from the ground up, as Toei have made changes that are showing great results with their anime now. Back then though ? hell no, we would've gotten something just as bad, if not worse than Super. I know Kai had its issues due to it just being a re-cut of older footage, but that was by far the best option back then.

Goku vs Freeza was still like 13 episodes iirc.

11 actually, which is far less than Z's 19-20.

[Planetnamek]

Agreed, Kai's pace really made a lot of characters suffer from how rushed everything felt.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Since Kai skipped the original Dragon Ball and reduced it to a recap we have no real reason to give a shit about Yamcha and Tenshinhan and Chaozu when they die. In fact we have even less reason to care because their re introductions were removed.

Skipping right to Z would be like reading Lord of The Rings, but you skip right to Two Towers and treat Fellowship of The Ring as the "Optional prequel story of Frodo Baggins"

[MasenkoHA]

11 actually, which is far less than Z's 19-20.

11 is less than Z’s 18 episodes (87-104) but 11 is still pretty long for a single fight. The longest fight in the original Dragon Ball was six episodes. Especially since those 11 episodes still includes that pointless Bulma/Ginyu Frog filler

[ArmenianPepsi]

Agreed, Kai's pace really made a lot of characters suffer from how rushed everything felt.

I get where you're coming from, but where do you draw the line on "Problems the anime adaptation itself creates" and "Problems that exist, but are inherited from the source material" ?

[Matches Malone]

I get where you're coming from, but where do you draw the line on "Problems the anime adaptation itself creates" and "Problems that exist, but are inherited from the source material" ?

You can either stick to the manga which has problems, or stick to the anime which fixes those problems, but introduces other ones. I think it just comes down to picking the lesser of 2 evils, as neither is perfect.

[ABED]

Kai wasn't meant to be the definitive version of the anime that adhered closer to the presentation of the manga. It was a cheap release to celebrate an anniversary and give an idea of what it would look like. I honesty have no issue with them skipping straight to Z since DB is readily available.

[JulieYBM]

Kai moves really slow, it just has poor editing and no resources to make a properly adapted take on DB.

[kyppk]

I think Kai works as it was meant to, a more streamlined version of Z for returning fans and an entry point for newer, younger fans. MasenkoHA hits the nail on the head with their response to the problems the streamlining of Z produces,

The fights in Kai never felt like they moved too fast tbh. Goku vs Freeza was still like 13 episodes iirc.

It’s the non-action scenes in Kai that suffer.

However, the problems introduced by the streamlining of the product are almost entirely lost on the target demographics of the product. A young child won't care about missing the background of Tien and Yamcha when they suddenly appear, and a returning fan already knows who they are. Really the demographics hurt most by watching Kai as apposed to Z are: people who know DB but never watched/read Z, people who are old enough to care about plot points but missed out on DB and Z entirely and started with Kai, and people who watched Kai but wanted Z. Honestly speaking the percentage of people in those groups probably totals around 7% of the total watchers, so again I think Kai worked for what it was meant to do.

That being said, while Kai works for what it was intended to do, it also lacks in many ways from the perspective of a proper remake. I think WhittyUsername and ABED said it best

People have argued that some of the filler would’ve been difficult to cut out, since Kai still uses the same footage as the old anime, but that sums up the fundamental problem with it. Kai at its core is just a cheap attempt at trying to cash in on the 20th anniversary of the DBZ anime.

Z has many, many problems, but I prefer it over Kai myself.

[ABED]

Some of the pacing feels off, but the fights move SO much better when we aren't constantly interrupted by cutting back to whatever the hell Chichi or Bulma are up to.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I do like that Kai cut out a good chunk of the purely filler scenes and episodes that were made back during Z's initial broadcast run, which was done almost solely in order to stall behind the manga's then concurrent serialization a la Princess Snake and the Garlic Jr. arc which i've never cared much for especially the latter two in particular, now that said however there are some exceptions to this like the expansion of Gohan's training in the wilderness which was more or less glossed over in the manga which really shouldn't have been excised. As i mentioned in the rewatch thread covering those episodes they didn't have to include the entire episodes themselves but just an abbreviated montage or flashback in one of the Kai-ified episodes or something, because those were examples of filler material that was done well and contributed to the canon unlike many others over the course of the series run.

Still though, that's my other main reason for going with Kai on most viewings of the series aside from the FUNi dub being the preferred way for me to watch the show in English here given just how absolutely horrible and unwatchable the old DBZ dub was. I still stick with the latter for Japanese viewing though because it's the superior experience on that front.

[Planetnamek]

Agreed, Kai's pace really made a lot of characters suffer from how rushed everything felt.

I get where you're coming from, but where do you draw the line on "Problems the anime adaptation itself creates" and "Problems that exist, but are inherited from the source material" ?

Well i've never read the Manga myself so I can only judge based on what i've seen on the TV series.

I do like that Kai cut out a good chunk of the purely filler scenes and episodes that were made back during Z's initial broadcast run, which was done almost solely in order to stall behind the manga's then concurrent serialization a la Princess Snake and the Garlic Jr. arc which i've never cared much for especially the latter two in particular, now that said however there are some exceptions to this like the expansion of Gohan's training in the wilderness which was more or less glossed over in the manga which really shouldn't have been excised. As i mentioned in the rewatch thread covering those episodes they didn't have to include the entire episodes themselves but just an abbreviated montage or flashback in one of the Kai-ified episodes or something, because those were examples of filler material that was done well and contributed to the canon unlike many others over the course of the series run.

Still though, that's my other main reason for going with Kai on most viewings of the series aside from the FUNi dub being the preferred way for me to watch the show in English here given just how absolutely horrible and unwatchable the old DBZ dub was. I still stick with the latter for Japanese viewing though because it's the superior experience on that front.

My issue is they cut out both too much filler and not enough, they cut out some of the cool stuff but kept in some of the less-inspired filler.

As rough around the edges as the original Z dub can be, I still have a certain fondness for it. Kai honestly feels like if DBZ Abridged somehow got a TV-level budget(and I say that as a fan of DBZ Abridged).

[ABED]

It wasn't meant to be the best version of the story. It's just meant to adhere closer to Toriyama's manga, for better or worse.

Kai honestly feels like if DBZ Abridged somehow got a TV-level budget(and I say that as a fan of DBZ Abridged).

What does that mean?

[jjgp1112]

I think the sloppy editing of Kai had more to do with the lack of air, so to speak. Like MasenkoHa mentioned, they breezed through the non-action scenes far too quickly while the fights feel appropriately cut - they left in just enough non-manga material in the fights to take advantage of the medium, while also cutting out the redundant fat. But there are so many talking scenes where the cuts are abrupt and sloppy.

A big consequence of the slapdash editing is that the episodic structure and storyboarding gets compromised at times. Moments that are clearly best served as the conclusion of an episode (and were oftentimes the end of manga chapters) sometimes occur a third of the way through. Pacing and sequencing matter, and Kai mistook speed for pacing.

I felt the International cut of Buu Kai did a much better on the editing side but also left just a tad too much filler, too. I certainly never got the clip show feel of OG Kai.

I would’ve had more respect for Kai as a concept if it was actually committed to being more like the manga, instead of being selective about what filler gets cut out and what stays. It’s just ridiculous to me that they got rid of the scenes showing Gohan’s training, but kept nonsense like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma and Goku having those visions of a naked Vegeta.

People have argued that some of the filler would’ve been difficult to cut out, since Kai still uses the same footage as the old anime, but that sums up the fundamental problem with it. Kai at its core is just a cheap attempt at trying to cash in on the 20th anniversary of the DBZ anime. It didn’t surprise me when I learned that the show was made specifically because Toriyama didn’t want to work with Toei on a new Dragon Ball series at the time, so they decided to just repackage the old show. The only thing of note that came out of that show is that it gave FUNimation the chance to make a better English dub.

The Bulma frog filler sticking around was SO fucking ridiculous. Unlike some other cases such as with Mr. Satan's pupils, it wasn't like it was impossible to edit around it. Bulma's not in the frame of any of the Gohan, Piccolo & Krillin cutaways that were adapted from the manga - they could've removed that bit without a trace.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I think the sloppy editing of Kai had more to do with the lack of air, so to speak. Like MasenkoHa mentioned, they breezed through the non-action scenes far too quickly while the fights feel appropriately cut - they left in just enough non-manga material in the fights to take advantage of the medium, while also cutting out the redundant fat. But there are so many talking scenes where the cuts are abrupt and sloppy.

A big consequence of the slapdash editing is that the episodic structure and storyboarding gets compromised at times. Moments that are clearly best served as the conclusion of an episode (and were oftentimes the end of manga chapters) sometimes occur a third of the way through. Pacing and sequencing matter, and Kai mistook speed for pacing.

I felt the International cut of Buu Kai did a much better on the editing side but also left just a tad too much filler, too. I certainly never got the clip show feel of OG Kai.

I would’ve had more respect for Kai as a concept if it was actually committed to being more like the manga, instead of being selective about what filler gets cut out and what stays. It’s just ridiculous to me that they got rid of the scenes showing Gohan’s training, but kept nonsense like Ginyu swapping bodies with Bulma and Goku having those visions of a naked Vegeta.

People have argued that some of the filler would’ve been difficult to cut out, since Kai still uses the same footage as the old anime, but that sums up the fundamental problem with it. Kai at its core is just a cheap attempt at trying to cash in on the 20th anniversary of the DBZ anime. It didn’t surprise me when I learned that the show was made specifically because Toriyama didn’t want to work with Toei on a new Dragon Ball series at the time, so they decided to just repackage the old show. The only thing of note that came out of that show is that it gave FUNimation the chance to make a better English dub.

The Bulma frog filler sticking around was SO fucking ridiculous. Unlike some other cases such as with Mr. Satan's pupils, it wasn't like it was impossible to edit around it. Bulma's not in the frame of any of the Gohan, Piccolo & Krillin cutaways that were adapted from the manga - they could've removed that bit without a trace.

That is by far one of my top least favorite pieces of filler material after the Garlic Jr arc and Fake Namek, and it could've easily been stripped out entirely because none of it was essential to the plot at all in any way. Every bit of those scenes were 100% a creation of Toei from back during Z's original run and not canon to the stuff going on around them. You're correct, surely there wouldn't have been any issues with chucking all those scenes out for Kai because they definitely could've stood to do more cutting.

[jjgp1112]

However, the problems introduced by the streamlining of the product are almost entirely lost on the target demographics of the product. A young child won't care about missing the background of Tien and Yamcha when they suddenly appear, and a returning fan already knows who they are. Really the demographics hurt most by watching Kai as apposed to Z are: people who know DB but never watched/read Z, people who are old enough to care about plot points but missed out on DB and Z entirely and started with Kai, and people who watched Kai but wanted Z. Honestly speaking the percentage of people in those groups probably totals around 7% of the total watchers, so again I think Kai worked for what it was meant to do.

I think particularly for American audiences, the notion of skipping DB and going to a filler-less Z is what really hurts the audience's chances of seeing Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu as anything but random friends.

The Z anime did try to give itself the superficial sheen of a sequel, which is why there was so much Gohan-centric filler (the working title for Z was Gohan's Big Adventure) and also why I think they gave Yamcha and Tien reintroductions - so they could be established in the ~TOTALLY NEW SERIES BUY OUR REBRANDED MERCHANDISE KIDS!~

Whereas if you've been following the manga going back to the beginning, you don't need an introduction for those guys. But Kai ignores that important detail regarding the viewers. They skip the first 195 chapters and just presume everybody knows these guys already.