Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:40 pm
Yes they both fall. They struggle and fall. However its fair to call it pushing. Its the same stuff. Overall doesn't change anything. They struggle and fall leading to Frodo catching the ledge. I remember. However Golem was basically pushed off.
Stop digging in, you are incorrect. They fell by accident. Both had succumbed to the ring, and it wasn't an act of heroism like you claimed.

He hated his heritage. He denounced Saiyans, thought they were horrible. Then by the end of the series he is proud to be one. Rember the pannel where Vegeta says "Spoken like a true...Saiyan!" of course you probably forget because semantics aren't involved.
He is proud of that by the end of the first arc. He tells Kaio without a hint of shame. There are three times where he tells someone he is a Saiyan with a hint of pride. He has no strong aversion to it beyond when he first finds out.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:44 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:40 pm
Yes they both fall. They struggle and fall. However its fair to call it pushing. Its the same stuff. Overall doesn't change anything. They struggle and fall leading to Frodo catching the ledge. I remember. However Golem was basically pushed off.
Stop digging in, you are incorrect. They fell by accident. Both had succumbed to the ring, and it wasn't an act of heroism like you claimed.
Never claimed that. He did fall to the ring. Don't put words in my mouth. Unless you are referencing when I said Frodo had a hero's journey that ended there which is just fact. He is one of the main examples of the heroes journey. Do you just turn your brain off when consuming all media?

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:46 pm

Look guy you are just wrong. If you want, just say "I think they spent enough time and wasn't bored by the bad writing and lame setting" that's fine. It's not my way is final. However, you cant make up flimsy reasons to "disprove my points"

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:44 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:40 pm
Yes they both fall. They struggle and fall. However its fair to call it pushing. Its the same stuff. Overall doesn't change anything. They struggle and fall leading to Frodo catching the ledge. I remember. However Golem was basically pushed off.
Stop digging in, you are incorrect. They fell by accident. Both had succumbed to the ring, and it wasn't an act of heroism like you claimed.
Never claimed that. He did fall to the ring. Don't put words in my mouth. Unless you are referencing when I said Frodo had a hero's journey that ended there which is just fact. He is one of the main examples of the heroes journey. Do you just turn your brain off when consuming all media?
You did claim that. I never claimed he wasn't on the hero's journey, just that he didn't throw the ring in the mount doom. His arc wasn't coming to terms with anything. He answers the call to adventure without much hesitation. His arc is to not succumb to the ring. He ultimately does but it's not permanent like Smeagol/Gollum. That's his arc.

I gave you examples that prove Goku doesn't have a strong aversion to his heritage.
Frodo finally coming to terms with his true virtues by dropping the ring in the fire ect.
These are your own words. I didn't make them up.
However, you cant make up flimsy reasons to "disprove my points"
Not when you have the market cornered on making stuff up.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:04 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:44 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm
Stop digging in, you are incorrect. They fell by accident. Both had succumbed to the ring, and it wasn't an act of heroism like you claimed.
Never claimed that. He did fall to the ring. Don't put words in my mouth. Unless you are referencing when I said Frodo had a hero's journey that ended there which is just fact. He is one of the main examples of the heroes journey. Do you just turn your brain off when consuming all media?
You did claim that. I never claimed he wasn't on the hero's journey, just that he didn't throw the ring in the mount doom. His arc wasn't coming to terms with anything. He answers the call to adventure without much hesitation. His arc is to not succumb to the ring. He ultimately does but it's not permanent like Smeagol/Gollum. That's his arc.

I gave you examples that prove Goku doesn't have a strong aversion to his heritage.
Frodo finally coming to terms with his true virtues by dropping the ring in the fire ect.
These are your own words. I didn't make them up.
We agreed on his arc. Frodo's arc was becoming proactive. We agreed. I never said his arc was scumbing to the ring. Not once guy. I said his arc ends there. Like, his story ends in the final book/movie. If I said that I mispoke. I was speaking off of a passive memory. My bad. You gave one example. One. And a crap one at that. In the same arc he talks to Vegeta about being disgusted by the Saiyans and being ashamed to be the same race as him.

P.S (had to add this) Frodo does come to terms with his true virtues. I am wrong in saying it came from the act of dropping the ring. However once the ring's hold on hims was broken with the ring's destruction, he did infact come to terms.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:10 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:04 pm
We agreed on his arc. Frodo's arc was becoming proactive. We agreed. I never said his arc was scumbing to the ring. Not once guy. I said his arc ends there. Like, his story ends in the final book/movie. If I said that I mispoke. I was speaking off of a passive memory. My bad. You gave one example. One. And a crap one at that. In the same arc he talks to Vegeta about being disgusted by the Saiyans and being ashamed to be the same race as him.
i never said you said his arc was succumbing to the ring. Where did you get that idea? And Frodo's arc is barely an arc. He doesn't really fight it much in either the book or the movie. Luke puts up a bigger fight on his journey. It takes the death of his aunt and uncle to answer the call to action. Frodo agrees to go in the same scene he's tasked with taking the ring.

I gave several examples (Goku telling Kaio, then Bahta). He also asks Vegeta to share his pride with him as he's buring his dead body. Then he tells Freeza "I am the Super Saiyan Son Goku!" You make it sound like Goku takes the entire story to come around to his alien heritage. Other than the first few episodes after finding out, he has no big aversion. He doesn't like their actions but he has no problem being a Saiyan.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:10 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:04 pm
We agreed on his arc. Frodo's arc was becoming proactive. We agreed. I never said his arc was scumbing to the ring. Not once guy. I said his arc ends there. Like, his story ends in the final book/movie. If I said that I mispoke. I was speaking off of a passive memory. My bad. You gave one example. One. And a crap one at that. In the same arc he talks to Vegeta about being disgusted by the Saiyans and being ashamed to be the same race as him.
i never said you said his arc was succumbing to the ring. Where did you get that idea?

I gave several examples (Goku telling Kaio, then Bahta). He also asks Vegeta to share his pride with him as he's buring his dead body. Then he tells Freeza "I am the Super Saiyan Son Goku!" You make it sound like Goku takes the entire story to come around to his alien heritage. Other than the first few episodes after finding out, he has no big aversion.
You realize the Frieza saga is where that arc concludes...that was my whole point...it was an arc...it ends there...The Buu saga reference was showing how he changed and by the end Vegeta recognizes it.

Also
His arc is to not succumb to the ring.
your words. It highly implies you think I think that.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:13 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:10 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:04 pm
We agreed on his arc. Frodo's arc was becoming proactive. We agreed. I never said his arc was scumbing to the ring. Not once guy. I said his arc ends there. Like, his story ends in the final book/movie. If I said that I mispoke. I was speaking off of a passive memory. My bad. You gave one example. One. And a crap one at that. In the same arc he talks to Vegeta about being disgusted by the Saiyans and being ashamed to be the same race as him.
i never said you said his arc was succumbing to the ring. Where did you get that idea?

I gave several examples (Goku telling Kaio, then Bahta). He also asks Vegeta to share his pride with him as he's buring his dead body. Then he tells Freeza "I am the Super Saiyan Son Goku!" You make it sound like Goku takes the entire story to come around to his alien heritage. Other than the first few episodes after finding out, he has no big aversion.
You realize the Frieza saga is where that arc concludes...that was my whole point...it was an arc...it ends there...The Buu saga reference was showing how he changed and by the end Vegeta recognizes it.

Also
His arc is to not succumb to the ring.
your words. It highly implies you think I think that.
maybe my grammar is bad, but that statement meant Frodo starts off as an innocent Hobbit, and the ring wears on him and eventually overwhelms him but in the end doesn't completely overtake him as he leaves for the Grey Havens as the innocent hobbit we first meet. More wordly perhaps but still innocent. You make it sound like this big profound journey of self actualization that he goes on where the end of it concludes with an epiphany that allows him to accept all parts of himself and that's just not the case.

It's not even the Freeza arc. He has no problem telling Kaio who he is. He has no problem telling Bahta who he is either. That's not some grand character arc.

This all different from the Baby situation as it's pretty clear that what the writers were going for was Baby being what he claimed to despise. It's a great idea but faulty execution. Goku doesn't have some grand realization because he doesn't need one. He's not that kind of character. It's just biology.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:34 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:13 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:10 pm
i never said you said his arc was succumbing to the ring. Where did you get that idea?

I gave several examples (Goku telling Kaio, then Bahta). He also asks Vegeta to share his pride with him as he's buring his dead body. Then he tells Freeza "I am the Super Saiyan Son Goku!" You make it sound like Goku takes the entire story to come around to his alien heritage. Other than the first few episodes after finding out, he has no big aversion.
You realize the Frieza saga is where that arc concludes...that was my whole point...it was an arc...it ends there...The Buu saga reference was showing how he changed and by the end Vegeta recognizes it.

Also
His arc is to not succumb to the ring.
your words. It highly implies you think I think that.
maybe my grammar is bad, but that statement meant Frodo starts off as an innocent Hobbit, and the ring wears on him and eventually overwhelms him but in the end doesn't completely overtake him as he leaves for the Grey Havens as the innocent hobbit we first meet. More wordly perhaps but still innocent. You make it sound like this big profound journey of self actualization that he goes on where the end of it concludes with an epiphany that allows him to accept all parts of himself and that's just not the case.

It's not even the Freeza arc. He has no problem telling Kaio who he is. He has no problem telling Bahta who he is either. That's not some grand character arc.

This all different from the Baby situation as it's pretty clear that what the writers were going for was Baby being what he claimed to despise. It's a great idea but faulty execution. Goku doesn't have some grand realization because he doesn't need one. He's not that kind of character.
I had some bad wording. I will admit that.

I think your wrong. There is a difference between knowing who you are and embracing. i see those as steps.

Agreed 100% I even said that. Its not grand but Goku has something.

Also, I want to say that over the course of this convo I have been throwing insults but intended for them to be lighthearted. Upon looking them over I come off as rude. I would like to say sorry, texting just isn't a good medium for me to joke like that.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:40 pm

I know there's a difference but it's not like Goku was ever ashamed or truly denied his heritage except at the very beginning. That's it. It's not like finally embracing it is what allows him to overcome anything. It's not like Rocky admitting that he's afraid allows him to regain his eye of the tiger. That's an arc. "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" is not an character arc. It doesn't allow him to do something by the end that he couldn't at the beginning.

I appreciate the apology.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:40 pm
I know there's a difference but it's not like Goku was ever ashamed or truly denied his heritage except at the very beginning. That's it. It's not like finally embracing it is what allows him to overcome anything. It's not like Rocky admitting that he's afraid allows him to regain his eye of the tiger. That's an arc. "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" is not an character arc. It doesn't allow him to do something by the end that he couldn't at the beginning.

I appreciate the apology.
No but going "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" to "I am Saiyan raised on Earth!" is. His comfort with it grows. Hell now in Broly he's fine with the name Kakarot.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:52 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:40 pm
I know there's a difference but it's not like Goku was ever ashamed or truly denied his heritage except at the very beginning. That's it. It's not like finally embracing it is what allows him to overcome anything. It's not like Rocky admitting that he's afraid allows him to regain his eye of the tiger. That's an arc. "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" is not an character arc. It doesn't allow him to do something by the end that he couldn't at the beginning.

I appreciate the apology.
No but going "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" to "I am Saiyan raised on Earth!" is. His comfort with it grows. Hell now in Broly he's fine with the name Kakarot.
That's not really an arc because it barely registers and he doesn't overcome anything as a result. He hasn't overcome anything. He was initially in shock, who wouldn't be, but he gets over it very quickly and it's not like he does any soul searching.

Speaking of charcter arcs, I wish Pan's had a coming of age arc. It's kinda there but not as clear or as cathartic as it should be.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:52 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:40 pm
I know there's a difference but it's not like Goku was ever ashamed or truly denied his heritage except at the very beginning. That's it. It's not like finally embracing it is what allows him to overcome anything. It's not like Rocky admitting that he's afraid allows him to regain his eye of the tiger. That's an arc. "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" is not an character arc. It doesn't allow him to do something by the end that he couldn't at the beginning.

I appreciate the apology.
No but going "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" to "I am Saiyan raised on Earth!" is. His comfort with it grows. Hell now in Broly he's fine with the name Kakarot.
That's not really an arc because it barely registers and he doesn't overcome anything as a result. He hasn't overcome anything. He was initially in shock, who wouldn't be, but he gets over it very quickly and it's not like he does any soul searching.

Speaking of charcter arcs, I wish Pan's had a coming of age arc. It's kinda there but not as clear or as cathartic as it should be.
I would say SSJ came into be through it. Me personally

I agree. Pan has poitental and I want to see it used. I try to in a GT fanfic I do. I like the ideas GT set up for her and everything, but god it failed hard.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:25 pm

In terms of Goku’s acceptance of his Saiyan heritage, that’s never a problem for him in the manga, beyond the initial shock at the revelation. Even within the Saiyan arc, Goku is perfectly fine with telling Kaio that he’s a Saiyan. He never expresses any denial or angst over it. There is no arc about him coming to terms with his Saiyan heritage, because he never has any problem accepting the fact that he’s a Saiyan. To be frank, I don’t think Toriyama is even the kind of writer who’s capable of tackling an arc like that, especially for a relatively static character like Goku.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:27 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:52 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm

No but going "I'm not a Saiyan" to "I guess I am" to "I am Saiyan raised on Earth!" is. His comfort with it grows. Hell now in Broly he's fine with the name Kakarot.
That's not really an arc because it barely registers and he doesn't overcome anything as a result. He hasn't overcome anything. He was initially in shock, who wouldn't be, but he gets over it very quickly and it's not like he does any soul searching.

Speaking of charcter arcs, I wish Pan's had a coming of age arc. It's kinda there but not as clear or as cathartic as it should be.
I would say SSJ came into be through it. Me personally

I agree. Pan has poitental and I want to see it used. I try to in a GT fanfic I do. I like the ideas GT set up for her and everything, but god it failed hard.
Super Saiyan was the result of his grief and anger. I don't see how it has anything to do with his coming to terms with being a Saiyan?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:27 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:08 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:52 pm
That's not really an arc because it barely registers and he doesn't overcome anything as a result. He hasn't overcome anything. He was initially in shock, who wouldn't be, but he gets over it very quickly and it's not like he does any soul searching.

Speaking of charcter arcs, I wish Pan's had a coming of age arc. It's kinda there but not as clear or as cathartic as it should be.
I would say SSJ came into be through it. Me personally

I agree. Pan has poitental and I want to see it used. I try to in a GT fanfic I do. I like the ideas GT set up for her and everything, but god it failed hard.
Super Saiyan was the result of his grief and anger. I don't see how it has anything to do with his coming to terms with being a Saiyan?
I see it as him embracing his Saiyan heritage lead him to new heights. His Grief is what did it but I think he was able to due to him embracing the Saiyan in him

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 pm

He had long since embraced that part of him when he acknowledged it to Kaio when training for the Saiyans.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 pm
He had long since embraced that part of him when he acknowledged it to Kaio when training for the Saiyans.
I wouldn't say that's embracing it. At the fight (the Vegeta fight) he still resents it.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:27 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 pm
He had long since embraced that part of him when he acknowledged it to Kaio when training for the Saiyans.
I wouldn't say that's embracing it. At the fight (the Vegeta fight) he still resents it.
When is he shown to resent it in his fight against Vegeta? He partially attributes his desire to fight Vegeta again to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He also casually tells Burter that he’s a Saiyan.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:30 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:07 pm
He had long since embraced that part of him when he acknowledged it to Kaio when training for the Saiyans.
I wouldn't say that's embracing it. At the fight (the Vegeta fight) he still resents it.
When is he shown to resent it in his fight against Vegeta? He partially attributes his desire to fight Vegeta again to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He also casually tells Burter that he’s a Saiyan.
He talks about how glad he is to have lived as an Earthling. He talks about Saiyans being horrible.

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