Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:35 pm

They WERE horrible. He's talking about their actions not being Saiyan qua Saiyan. That's not resentment of being a Saiyan.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:37 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:30 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm


I wouldn't say that's embracing it. At the fight (the Vegeta fight) he still resents it.
When is he shown to resent it in his fight against Vegeta? He partially attributes his desire to fight Vegeta again to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He also casually tells Burter that he’s a Saiyan.
He talks about how glad he is to have lived as an Earthling. He talks about Saiyans being horrible.
He says he’s glad to have grown up on Earth, but as far as we can tell, that never changes after the Freeza saga. Goku still never shows any difficulty adjusting or coming to terms with his Saiyan heritage. That’s never been an arc for him, at least in terms of the manga. Any kind rejection that Goku ever demonstrates towards his Saiyan heritage is exclusive to Toei’s version. Toriyama’s Goku is a fairly static character.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:41 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:37 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:30 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:27 pm


When is he shown to resent it in his fight against Vegeta? He partially attributes his desire to fight Vegeta again to the fact that he’s a Saiyan. He also casually tells Burter that he’s a Saiyan.
He talks about how glad he is to have lived as an Earthling. He talks about Saiyans being horrible.
He says he’s glad to have grown up on Earth, but as far as we can tell, that never changes after the Freeza saga. Goku still never shows any difficulty adjusting or coming to terms with his Saiyan heritage. That’s never been an arc for him, at least in terms of the manga. Any kind rejection that Goku ever demonstrates towards his Saiyan heritage is exclusive to Toei’s version. Toriyama’s Goku is a fairly static character.
I would say he subtly warms up to the concept each following arc. He seems more comfterable with it each one. I also disagree with that for other reasons. Aside from that arc I do think he goes through changes.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:44 pm

except after first hearing about it he's not cold towards it. He's fine with being a Saiyan. Calling out their actions isn't a sign of resentment.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:21 am

Today's manga drafts definitely tipped the scale in GT's favor. :lol:

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:26 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:44 pm
except after first hearing about it he's not cold towards it. He's fine with being a Saiyan. Calling out their actions isn't a sign of resentment.
Yeah they were horrible, but Goku's resentment was deeper than their actions. He didn't enjoy the way people viewed him because he was a Saiyan. Essentially the past of the Saiyans tainted their outlook and Goku didn't enjoy being viewed in a similar light. So he attempted to distance himself from them only to turn around and instead work towards changing their image.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:08 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:26 am
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:44 pm
except after first hearing about it he's not cold towards it. He's fine with being a Saiyan. Calling out their actions isn't a sign of resentment.
Yeah they were horrible, but Goku's resentment was deeper than their actions. He didn't enjoy the way people viewed him because he was a Saiyan. Essentially the past of the Saiyans tainted their outlook and Goku didn't enjoy being viewed in a similar light. So he attempted to distance himself from them only to turn around and instead work towards changing their image.
What text or subtext leads you to believe that? There's nothing to support this claim and what you are describing doesn't sound like Goku at all.

He doesn't set out to change their image.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:21 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:08 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:26 am
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:44 pm
except after first hearing about it he's not cold towards it. He's fine with being a Saiyan. Calling out their actions isn't a sign of resentment.
Yeah they were horrible, but Goku's resentment was deeper than their actions. He didn't enjoy the way people viewed him because he was a Saiyan. Essentially the past of the Saiyans tainted their outlook and Goku didn't enjoy being viewed in a similar light. So he attempted to distance himself from them only to turn around and instead work towards changing their image.
What text or subtext leads you to believe that? There's nothing to support this claim and what you are describing doesn't sound like Goku at all.

He doesn't set out to change their image.
I think he does. Thats what his speech to Frieza means in my opinion. The reason its seems uncharacteristically heroic (even in the original text) is because he is somewhat attempting to be heroic. He wants the Super Saiyan to be that. Goku always seeks the good in his enemies and wants to redeem them, this is true for the Saiyan race also

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:53 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:21 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:08 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:26 am

Yeah they were horrible, but Goku's resentment was deeper than their actions. He didn't enjoy the way people viewed him because he was a Saiyan. Essentially the past of the Saiyans tainted their outlook and Goku didn't enjoy being viewed in a similar light. So he attempted to distance himself from them only to turn around and instead work towards changing their image.
What text or subtext leads you to believe that? There's nothing to support this claim and what you are describing doesn't sound like Goku at all.

He doesn't set out to change their image.
I think he does. Thats what his speech to Frieza means in my opinion. The reason its seems uncharacteristically heroic (even in the original text) is because he is somewhat attempting to be heroic. He wants the Super Saiyan to be that. Goku always seeks the good in his enemies and wants to redeem them, this is true for the Saiyan race also
Your opinion has no basis. That isn't Goku. He doesn't care what people think of him. And he doesn't seek to redeem his enemies. He wants to fight strong opponents, he would just rather they not have homicidal impulses. It is absolutely untrue of his view of the Saiyan race. There is NOTHING to show he is out to change people's perception of that race. What about Goku makes you think that is in keeping with his character?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:11 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:53 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:21 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:08 am
What text or subtext leads you to believe that? There's nothing to support this claim and what you are describing doesn't sound like Goku at all.

He doesn't set out to change their image.
I think he does. Thats what his speech to Frieza means in my opinion. The reason its seems uncharacteristically heroic (even in the original text) is because he is somewhat attempting to be heroic. He wants the Super Saiyan to be that. Goku always seeks the good in his enemies and wants to redeem them, this is true for the Saiyan race also
Your opinion has no basis. That isn't Goku. He doesn't care what people think of him. And he doesn't seek to redeem his enemies. He wants to fight strong opponents, he would just rather they not have homicidal impulses. It is absolutely untrue of his view of the Saiyan race. There is NOTHING to show he is out to change people's perception of that race. What about Goku makes you think that is in keeping with his character?
Thats not true. Goku is not just selfish. He is pretty selfless. Yes he wants to fight strong people, but don't act like he didn't try and help Vegeta and Piccolo. He over the course of the Namek arc showcases more contempt with his Saiyan roots than in the previous arc. Goku doesn't care what people think of him, but he's also a good hearted martial artist who seeks to improve his world. He can be selfish, but Goku does care about his Saiyan heritage it isn't just "Oh ok I am this now sick" its a natural progression of him embracing it. Him saying he is a Saiyan is not the same thing so don't even try

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:56 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:11 am
Thats not true. Goku is not just selfish. He is pretty selfless. Yes he wants to fight strong people, but don't act like he didn't try and help Vegeta and Piccolo. He over the course of the Namek arc showcases more contempt with his Saiyan roots than in the previous arc. Goku doesn't care what people think of him, but he's also a good hearted martial artist who seeks to improve his world. He can be selfish, but Goku does care about his Saiyan heritage it isn't just "Oh ok I am this now sick" its a natural progression of him embracing it. Him saying he is a Saiyan is not the same thing so don't even try
When did he try to help Piccolo?

Goku doesn't seek to improve the world. He's not a superhero. He doesn't want to see innocent people hurt but he doesn't seek them out. He will put people in danger to get a better fight. He lets Vegeta and Piccolo live so he can fight them later. He doesn't intervene in Dr Gero's plan to create cyborgs that will destroy the world and kill his friends even though he has ample warning.

"Don't act like...", "don't even try..." Really?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:48 am

Goku doesn’t care how people perceive him. He’s given no indication that he’s trying to “redeem” the image of the Saiyan race. His speech to Freeza when he becomes a Super Saiyan is weird and kind of comes out of nowhere, but it doesn’t strike me as an example of him trying to redeem the way that Saiyans are perceived.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:21 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:56 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:11 am
Thats not true. Goku is not just selfish. He is pretty selfless. Yes he wants to fight strong people, but don't act like he didn't try and help Vegeta and Piccolo. He over the course of the Namek arc showcases more contempt with his Saiyan roots than in the previous arc. Goku doesn't care what people think of him, but he's also a good hearted martial artist who seeks to improve his world. He can be selfish, but Goku does care about his Saiyan heritage it isn't just "Oh ok I am this now sick" its a natural progression of him embracing it. Him saying he is a Saiyan is not the same thing so don't even try
When did he try to help Piccolo?

Goku doesn't seek to improve the world. He's not a superhero. He doesn't want to see innocent people hurt but he doesn't seek them out. He will put people in danger to get a better fight. He lets Vegeta and Piccolo live so he can fight them later. He doesn't intervene in Dr Gero's plan to create cyborgs that will destroy the world and kill his friends even though he has ample warning.

"Don't act like...", "don't even try..." Really?
Goku isn't a superhero. He isn't. However, he is a good at heart person. I think there is more to Goku keeping Piccolo alive then just to fight. He told his son Piccolo Jr. isn't as bad. He probably thinks Piccolo can become a better person and friend. You don't have to be a superhero or entirley selfless to try and better others. That Dr. Gero thing I also think is somewhat out of character. He should have warned him or something.

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:39 pm

GT is still the black sheep of the franchise. I still see plentyo f people dislike it and tell people not to bother with. Super is more well like with the casual auddience meanwhile the bigger fans like us are 50/50 on Super. Unlike Super, GT had more hype for it because it was a direct sequel to DBZ and had a lot going for it. With Super, people know that the retellings of BOG and ROF were going to suck and they were just filler for Toriyama to write up new content for the show.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:04 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:21 pm
Goku isn't a superhero. He isn't. However, he is a good at heart person. I think there is more to Goku keeping Piccolo alive then just to fight. He told his son Piccolo Jr. isn't as bad. He probably thinks Piccolo can become a better person and friend. You don't have to be a superhero or entirley selfless to try and better others. That Dr. Gero thing I also think is somewhat out of character. He should have warned him or something.
I don't get the sense that Goku cares much of Piccolo does become better at that point, just as long as he doesn't start causing trouble. Goku's aim isn't to better others. He does it by example. The Dr. Gero thing is absolutely in character. He lets bad guys live to fight them later. That's his explicit reason for letting Vegeta go.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:04 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:21 pm
Goku isn't a superhero. He isn't. However, he is a good at heart person. I think there is more to Goku keeping Piccolo alive then just to fight. He told his son Piccolo Jr. isn't as bad. He probably thinks Piccolo can become a better person and friend. You don't have to be a superhero or entirley selfless to try and better others. That Dr. Gero thing I also think is somewhat out of character. He should have warned him or something.
I don't get the sense that Goku cares much of Piccolo does become better at that point, just as long as he doesn't start causing trouble. Goku's aim isn't to better others. He does it by example. The Dr. Gero thing is absolutely in character. He lets bad guys live to fight them later. That's his explicit reason for letting Vegeta go.
Vegeta is really the only instance of it beforehand. I feel like people forget a lot of Goku's past actions
He saves the turtle out of kindness
He fights the Red Ribbon Army to save Bora
He does so many selfless deeds. I think Goku letting Vegeta go is a tad differen't due to Vegeta already be beaten. However if Goku had the opertunity to stop Vegeta and Nappa from coming to Earth, he'd probably try it. He mentions just being scared to know about them. Goku isn't the biggest one acting out of character, he's more bearable. Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin act too out of character though. Goku sure leads by example, but you always get the feeling he hopes to see his former enemies change at that he works towards it. Indirectly for the most part, but there is a good nature to Goku's relationshp.

However this doesn't change the fact that Goku does have some sort of arc in the Frieza saga of embracing his Saiyan nature. Just because he isn't hating on Saiyans every pannel doesn't mean you don't get the picture that Goku by the end kind of likes being a Saiyan. That moment really comes when he tells Vegeta to "Lend his pride" That's the moment when Goku fully embraces his Saiyan herritage

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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:40 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:29 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:04 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:21 pm
Goku isn't a superhero. He isn't. However, he is a good at heart person. I think there is more to Goku keeping Piccolo alive then just to fight. He told his son Piccolo Jr. isn't as bad. He probably thinks Piccolo can become a better person and friend. You don't have to be a superhero or entirley selfless to try and better others. That Dr. Gero thing I also think is somewhat out of character. He should have warned him or something.
I don't get the sense that Goku cares much of Piccolo does become better at that point, just as long as he doesn't start causing trouble. Goku's aim isn't to better others. He does it by example. The Dr. Gero thing is absolutely in character. He lets bad guys live to fight them later. That's his explicit reason for letting Vegeta go.
Vegeta is really the only instance of it beforehand. I feel like people forget a lot of Goku's past actions
He saves the turtle out of kindness
He fights the Red Ribbon Army to save Bora
He does so many selfless deeds. I think Goku letting Vegeta go is a tad differen't due to Vegeta already be beaten. However if Goku had the opertunity to stop Vegeta and Nappa from coming to Earth, he'd probably try it. He mentions just being scared to know about them. Goku isn't the biggest one acting out of character, he's more bearable. Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin act too out of character though. Goku sure leads by example, but you always get the feeling he hopes to see his former enemies change at that he works towards it. Indirectly for the most part, but there is a good nature to Goku's relationshp.

However this doesn't change the fact that Goku does have some sort of arc in the Frieza saga of embracing his Saiyan nature. Just because he isn't hating on Saiyans every pannel doesn't mean you don't get the picture that Goku by the end kind of likes being a Saiyan. That moment really comes when he tells Vegeta to "Lend his pride" That's the moment when Goku fully embraces his Saiyan herritage
He does help people but he doesn't go looking for it. Turtle and Bora were beings he ran into on his journey. I've said this. And he would've fought the RRA anyway since they had the Dragon Balls

There is literally nothing in the text or subtext to support your claims that Goku would've pre-emptively stopped Vegeta and Nappa from coming to Earth if he could.

He hopes to see enemies change, but only because he doesn't want them causing death and destruction.

What you are describing is not an arc. He didn't have a strong aversion to being a Saiyan and asking Vegeta to lend him some pride doesn't allow him to achieve anything he couldn't have before. He isn't able to overcome any sort of barrier. You are just trying to make it sound more poetic (for lack of a better word) than it really is. That might have been what Toriyama was going for but it doesn't work.

I'm hoping GT will get a better appraisal. It's boring in large parts, though underrated in other aspects. It's not the worst thing ever as it practically had the reputation as being.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Dr. Casey » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:48 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm
maybe my grammar is bad, but that statement meant Frodo starts off as an innocent Hobbit, and the ring wears on him and eventually overwhelms him but in the end doesn't completely overtake him as he leaves for the Grey Havens as the innocent hobbit we first meet. More wordly perhaps but still innocent. You make it sound like this big profound journey of self actualization that he goes on where the end of it concludes with an epiphany that allows him to accept all parts of himself and that's just not the case.
I haven't read the books since 8th grade, but I think I remember Frodo being depressed and emotionally exhausted by the end of the series thanks to all his experiences. I think he said something about going to Grey Havens specifically because he's changed and has trouble returning to normal life.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:53 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:48 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm
maybe my grammar is bad, but that statement meant Frodo starts off as an innocent Hobbit, and the ring wears on him and eventually overwhelms him but in the end doesn't completely overtake him as he leaves for the Grey Havens as the innocent hobbit we first meet. More wordly perhaps but still innocent. You make it sound like this big profound journey of self actualization that he goes on where the end of it concludes with an epiphany that allows him to accept all parts of himself and that's just not the case.
I haven't read the books since 8th grade, but I think I remember Frodo being depressed and emotionally exhausted by the end of the series thanks to all his experiences. I think he said something about going to Grey Havens specifically because he's changed and has trouble returning to normal life.
He's exhausted and his wound from Weathertop won't ever heal completely, but he's still the good person we first meet. It's his journey to hold onto that. He's like a war vet who doesn't allow the horrors of war to dehumanize him. That's his journey, not "coming to terms with his virtues".
Last edited by ABED on Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

Post by Dr. Casey » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:54 pm

Ah, okay. I see what you mean.
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