Would you say that GT is more or less liked nowadays?

[Mad Swami]

GT has interesting new ideas but the execution is boring. Super has more interesting new characters and better fights, but it's too reliant on nostalgia and keeping the status quo. I'll give the edge to Super but ever so slightly.

GT conceptually is far better but the execution is much worse. However, the Golden Frieza saga and the T.O.P are more unwatchable than anything in GT.

[ABED]

He did. I mean he outclassed Goku Black completley. Before Goku Black gained more power, Vegeta was fully capable of moving the fight. Hell he could at least sperated Goku Black from Zamasu. Maybe Goku and Zamasu continue their fight in the city. Eitherway, Vegeta did

I saw the show and he didn't. That's why Vegetto was needed. The good guys could not unilaterally decide to move the battle. Zamasu is intent on genocide, he goes where the people are.

I watched the show, and at one point noticed a part where both heroes were much stronger than both villains and were totally capable of relocating

You also saw Frodo toss the ring in Mt. Doom even though that also didn't happen. Whatever advantage the heroes had was always transient.

However, the Golden Frieza saga and the T.O.P are more unwatchable than anything in GT.

The Golden Freeza arc sure but I think you underestimate how boring much of GT is. The TOP has way more virtues than you give it credit for being.

[WittyUsername]

As far as I’m concerned, both shows can be fairly boring.

[precita]

The problem with GT is they screwed up the main cast.

Goku becoming a kid again should not have happened. Vegeta barely does anything till the tail-end of the show and is mostly wasted. Piccolo dies...and barely does anything. Gohan is useless again, Trunks/Goten even more useless. Android 17 is completely ruined by having him fuse and then dying.

Pretty much every major character was wasted. Even Pan who had potential didn't do much more than play damsel in distress most of the time.

[WittyUsername]

The problem with GT is they screwed up the main cast.

Goku becoming a kid again should not have happened. Vegeta barely does anything till the tail-end of the show and is mostly wasted. Piccolo dies...and barely does anything. Gohan is useless again, Trunks/Goten even more useless. Android 17 is completely ruined by having him fuse and then dying.

Pretty much every major character was wasted. Even Pan who had potential didn't do much more than play damsel in distress most of the time.

I wouldn’t say that Trunks is completely useless in GT. He’s an important part of the show up until they get back to Earth.

[jjgp1112]

I'll give GT props for at least making radical changes but I just can't get over how damn lifeless it is. Such a slog to watch, with the 17 Arc being the absolute low point of Dragon Ball in my opinion.

Super, for its stagnation, clumsiness and nostalgia-grabbing, is at least interesting and fun, and even finds ways to utilize the other guys that we honestly hadn't seen in Dragon Ball since the Red Ribbon arc. It had Master Roshi giving fools that old man game with bank shots and mid-range jumpers!

[Mad Swami]

I saw the show and he didn't. That's why Vegetto was needed. The good guys could not unilaterally decide to move the battle. Zamasu is intent on genocide, he goes where the people are.

I watched the show, and at one point noticed a part where both heroes were much stronger than both villains and were totally capable of relocating

You also saw Frodo toss the ring in Mt. Doom even though that also didn't happen. Whatever advantage the heroes had was always transient.

However, the Golden Frieza saga and the T.O.P are more unwatchable than anything in GT.

The Golden Freeza arc sure but I think you underestimate how boring much of GT is. The TOP has way more virtues than you give it credit for being.

Gt was pretty boring but it was short enough. The only decent part of GT is the Baby saga. It isn't great but fine.

I don't get your Lord of the Rings point because yes it wasn't a permenent advantage, but you don't need one to relocate the fight. While Vegeta and Goku had it they could have used it to move out of the city.

[ABED]

I don't get your Lord of the Rings point

You are prone to seeing things that don't happen. It's the Mandela Effect.

While GT is shorter it is still very boring. The Baby fight is still too long and even at a brisk 6 episodes, the Super 17 arc is still a slog to get through. And the heroes can't just decide to change the location of the fight on their own when the villain wants to kill everyone.

[Mad Swami]

I don't get your Lord of the Rings point

You are prone to seeing things that don't happen. It's the Mandela Effect.

While GT is shorter it is still very boring. The Baby fight is still too long and even at a brisk 6 episodes, the Super 17 arc is still a slog to get through. And the heroes can't just decide to change the location of the fight on their own when the villain wants to kill everyone.

I mean its been awhile since I saw the movie, but I am pretty sure he struggles with Golem and manages to push both Golem and the ring into the fire. I don't see how that relates. I don't think I ever said something about it except for vaguely mentioning Frodo putting the ring into the fire, something he did but there is nuance. Vegeta was outclassing Goku Black at a point, that is fact.

Super 17 is bad.

But they could have. Objectivly they were capable. At at least two points in the story they could have

When Vegeta>Goku Black and when Vegito was formed.

[Kid Buu]

Honestly I've never met anyone outide of the internet who dislikes GT. So I guess I would say it's popularity hasn't changed at all from my perception.

[SupremeKai25]

1) Instant Transmission, and or Vegito. Plus Vegeta had enough power, and Zamasu on his own was always the weak one just invincible

2) It's totally reasonable to not want to further damage the city and or not crush the people in the underground tunnels

Goku Black has instant transmission too, so that point is moot. During the Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu fight, the civilians were already evacuated into the hangar made by Bulma. The city was effectively abandoned by civilians.

And you still have to explain how exactly GT is better, because I dont remember Goku forcing Baby or Omega Shenron to fight anywhere else than in a desolate, ruined city.

Ok he uses IT but for some reason doesn't find the humans in the subway. And I remember, my point was instead of that they could have made the fight more entertaining by finding a different fighting area. Also if Goku used IT why would Goku Black and Zamasu mid fight IT away? I feel they'd want to take care of Vegeta and Goku first. At least grow in strength.

I don't think GT is better. GT is a worse show. I just think the settings are nicer to look at. I like the artstyle more and other aspects. Goku was fighting Baby on New Vegeta which was a great setting. The architecture looked interesting and the pink sky was interesting. The Omega Shenron fight is shorter and the blue sky make it a bit more tollerable. Granted the Zamasu vs Vegito fight is great and distracts from the ugly world. I just think variety should have been used. The omega Shenron fight is super boring but its setting is a tad more visually pleasing as opposed to the drab future of the Zamasu area

He knows the humans are hiding in the subway, he can even sense them, he just doesn't want to do anything about it because he wants to punish humans slowly and ruthlessly.

At no point during the arc were Goku and Vegeta in a winning position for longer than 10 seconds:

1) The first time they go to the future, they get demolished;
2) The second time they go to the future, Goku gets mad for 10 seconds, then they get demolished;
3) The third time they go to the future, Vegeta gets mad for 10 seconds, then they get demolished.

In fact, it got to the point that it was Black who decided where the fighting took place. After Goku and Vegeta heard that Black sent Zamasu to kill Trunks and co., they wanted to teleport away but failed. So if anything it was Black, and not Goku and Vegeta, who had the means to relocate the fight.

As for your point about New Vegeta, frankly it looks like an ugly wasteland, but regardless what surprises me is that Baby did not try to relocate the fight. How unfitting for the "savior and king of the tuffles" to fight LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR RESTORED CITY. In fact, once he turns into a golden ape he pretty much starts ravaging his own already damaged city. So much for restoring that place with the Dragon Balls...

[ABED]

I don't get your Lord of the Rings point

You are prone to seeing things that don't happen. It's the Mandela Effect.

While GT is shorter it is still very boring. The Baby fight is still too long and even at a brisk 6 episodes, the Super 17 arc is still a slog to get through. And the heroes can't just decide to change the location of the fight on their own when the villain wants to kill everyone.

I mean its been awhile since I saw the movie, but I am pretty sure he struggles with Golem and manages to push both Golem and the ring into the fire. I don't see how that relates. I don't think I ever said something about it except for vaguely mentioning Frodo putting the ring into the fire, something he did but there is nuance. Vegeta was outclassing Goku Black at a point, that is fact.

And this just shows you can be positive and be incorrect. It's not something he did. They fell and if you can't remember how something went down in one example I don't trust your take on events in another.

When they fuse into Vegetto he's doing so to defeat fused Zamasu to save everyone so it's pointless to move anyone out of the city especially since the time it would take would be better spent fighting Zamasu.

Trunks even more useless.

Trunks pilots the ship and is the tech guy. He's more useful here than he was other than his introduction.

[Mad Swami]

You are prone to seeing things that don't happen. It's the Mandela Effect.

While GT is shorter it is still very boring. The Baby fight is still too long and even at a brisk 6 episodes, the Super 17 arc is still a slog to get through. And the heroes can't just decide to change the location of the fight on their own when the villain wants to kill everyone.

I mean its been awhile since I saw the movie, but I am pretty sure he struggles with Golem and manages to push both Golem and the ring into the fire. I don't see how that relates. I don't think I ever said something about it except for vaguely mentioning Frodo putting the ring into the fire, something he did but there is nuance. Vegeta was outclassing Goku Black at a point, that is fact.

And this just shows you can be positive and be incorrect. It's not something he did. They fell and if you can't remember how something went down in one example I don't trust your take on events in another.

When they fuse into Vegetto he's doing so to defeat fused Zamasu to save everyone so it's pointless to move anyone out of the city especially since the time it would take would be better spent fighting Zamasu.

Trunks even more useless.

Trunks pilots the ship and is the tech guy. He's more useful here than he was other than his introduction.

So because its been awhile since I watched Lord of the Rings, that means I am incorrect about my entire point. That's silly. I also rewatched the scene, and I was right. He pushes Golem into the fire also falling after the two struggle for a bit. So I don't get your point. Here are two facts. 1. Vegeta at a time was stronger than Goku Black. That means both heroes were stronger than both villains. So they could move the fight. 2. Vegito was stronger than Fused Zamasu. Not by much but stronger. Zamasu also lost his way and control becoming a monster. So, its bealivible he'd leave the area to kill Vegito in anger. Your points are silly and don't prove me wrong, just paint you as unable to pay attention to the show.

[Mad Swami]

Goku Black has instant transmission too, so that point is moot. During the Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu fight, the civilians were already evacuated into the hangar made by Bulma. The city was effectively abandoned by civilians.

And you still have to explain how exactly GT is better, because I dont remember Goku forcing Baby or Omega Shenron to fight anywhere else than in a desolate, ruined city.

Ok he uses IT but for some reason doesn't find the humans in the subway. And I remember, my point was instead of that they could have made the fight more entertaining by finding a different fighting area. Also if Goku used IT why would Goku Black and Zamasu mid fight IT away? I feel they'd want to take care of Vegeta and Goku first. At least grow in strength.

I don't think GT is better. GT is a worse show. I just think the settings are nicer to look at. I like the artstyle more and other aspects. Goku was fighting Baby on New Vegeta which was a great setting. The architecture looked interesting and the pink sky was interesting. The Omega Shenron fight is shorter and the blue sky make it a bit more tollerable. Granted the Zamasu vs Vegito fight is great and distracts from the ugly world. I just think variety should have been used. The omega Shenron fight is super boring but its setting is a tad more visually pleasing as opposed to the drab future of the Zamasu area

He knows the humans are hiding in the subway, he can even sense them, he just doesn't want to do anything about it because he wants to punish humans slowly and ruthlessly.

At no point during the arc were Goku and Vegeta in a winning position for longer than 10 seconds:

1) The first time they go to the future, they get demolished;
2) The second time they go to the future, Goku gets mad for 10 seconds, then they get demolished;
3) The third time they go to the future, Vegeta gets mad for 10 seconds, then they get demolished.

In fact, it got to the point that it was Black who decided where the fighting took place. After Goku and Vegeta heard that Black sent Zamasu to kill Trunks and co., they wanted to teleport away but failed. So if anything it was Black, and not Goku and Vegeta, who had the means to relocate the fight.

As for your point about New Vegeta, frankly, it looks like an ugly wasteland, but regardless what surprises me is that Baby did not try to relocate the fight. How unfitting for the "savior and king of the tuffles" to fight LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR RESTORED CITY. In fact, once he turns into a golden ape he pretty much starts ravaging his own already damaged city. So much for restoring that place with the Dragon Balls...

Ok...so then if Goku used Instant Transmission to teleport them away...why would they return? You just said yourself that they want to punish them slowly. So why would that suddenly change? Hell they go take a break at their log cabin, why is it impossible for them to say and fight Goku and Vegeta somewhere else.

Also not always. When Vegeta was stronger than Goku Black, he could have relocated it. Zamasu on his own was never stronger than SSB just resilient so he doesn't matter in deciding the fight. Or Vegito, Zamasu was so far gone by that point he would have just followed the fused warrior. There is no excuse

That's kind of the point a bit. Baby becomes what he sought to destroy. Its not done well, GT doesn't acomplish its goals good, but they wanted to do that. Its a great idea but done poorly

[SupremeKai25]

Ok...so then if Goku used Instant Transmission to teleport them away...why would they return? You just said yourself that they want to punish them slowly. So why would that suddenly change? Hell they go take a break at their log cabin, why is it impossible for them to say and fight Goku and Vegeta somewhere else.

Also not always. When Vegeta was stronger than Goku Black, he could have relocated it. Zamasu on his own was never stronger than SSB just resilient so he doesn't matter in deciding the fight. Or Vegito, Zamasu was so far gone by that point he would have just followed the fused warrior. There is no excuse

That's kind of the point a bit. Baby becomes what he sought to destroy. Its not done well, GT doesn't acomplish its goals good, but they wanted to do that. Its a great idea but done poorly

It really feels like you are trying your hardest to find anything to complain about. The show already gave you one entire episodes of fighting in that forest, so you don't have ground to stand on.

Like, seriously? That's your complaint about Super? That Goku and Vegeta didn't try to relocate the fight during the Future Trunks arc, when 99% of the population is already wiped out?

[Mad Swami]

Ok...so then if Goku used Instant Transmission to teleport them away...why would they return? You just said yourself that they want to punish them slowly. So why would that suddenly change? Hell they go take a break at their log cabin, why is it impossible for them to say and fight Goku and Vegeta somewhere else.

Also not always. When Vegeta was stronger than Goku Black, he could have relocated it. Zamasu on his own was never stronger than SSB just resilient so he doesn't matter in deciding the fight. Or Vegito, Zamasu was so far gone by that point he would have just followed the fused warrior. There is no excuse

That's kind of the point a bit. Baby becomes what he sought to destroy. Its not done well, GT doesn't acomplish its goals good, but they wanted to do that. Its a great idea but done poorly

It really feels like you are trying your hardest to find anything to complain about. The show already gave you one entire episodes of fighting in that forest, so you don't have ground to stand on.

Like, seriously? That's your complaint about Super? That Goku and Vegeta didn't try to relocate the fight during the Future Trunks arc, when 99% of the population is already wiped out?

Its not my only complaint nor is it one of my top 10 biggest. However you guys think its unfound so I will back up my opinion. There is much more to complain about. Hell even in the same arc. I am just saying the backdrop of the ruined city should have been used a bit less.

[ABED]

If anything Zamasu would want to keep the fight away from nature. He loves nature and hates people.

My point about LOTR is if you can't get the facts straight even right after watching something that throws you ability to make a good case into question. Again, he didn't push him. They both struggle and fall in. Why would he push Gollum? He wants the ring. He just tried to take the ring for himself before Gollum bit his finger off. If you miss something this obvious how can I trust your other observations?

This example just stood out to me as missing the point of a scene to an egregious degreee. You've also said Goku had an arc where he came to terms with his Saiyan heritage. He hasn't really. Other than the initial shock he's more than fine with it from then on.

And it just doesn't make any sense that Goku and Vegeta would need to fuse if they were stronger than the villains. And I think by the time Vegetto is fused, the civilians are a ways away. They are in the city but just not ground zero. And once they are fused and have Zamasu on the ropes why would they take the time to move everyone instead of ending the threat as expediently as possible?

[Mad Swami]

If anything Zamasu would want to keep the fight away from nature. He loves nature and hates people.

My point about LOTR is if you can't get the facts straight even right after watching something that throws you ability to make a good case into question. Again, he didn't push him. They both struggle and fall in. Why would he push Gollum? He wants the ring. He just tried to take the ring for himself before Gollum bit his finger off. If you miss something this obvious how can I trust your other observations?

This example just stood out to me as missing the point of a scene to an egregious degreee. You've also said Goku had an arc where he came to terms with his Saiyan heritage. He hasn't really. Other than the initial shock he's more than fine with it from then on.

And it just doesn't make any sense that Goku and Vegeta would need to fuse if they were stronger than the villains. And I think by the time Vegetto is fused, the civilians are a ways away. They are in the city but just not ground zero. And once they are fused and have Zamasu on the ropes why would they take the time to move everyone instead of ending the threat as expediently as possible?

Pushing him in by accident is still pushing. Also because I watched DBS more recently. Since you didn't watch the show clearly i'll provide evidence. You aren't. I didn't miss the point the two struggle over the ring and as a resault Frodo pushes him in. It happens. Sure he wanted it for himself, but his struggle leads to Golem falling in. This is semantics and you know it. Also Goku did have an arc. You just don't pay attention. You clearly don't get Dragonball either because you act like people don't change in power compared to others...case in point, yes Vegeta was stronger but get this...Goku Black got stronger. Did you pay any sort of attention? Like any?
My point is, you could rework the story to make it so they would need to. They had moments when they were capable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8leAS6pM-k Here is Vegeta being stronger. It happened

[ABED]

If anything Zamasu would want to keep the fight away from nature. He loves nature and hates people.

My point about LOTR is if you can't get the facts straight even right after watching something that throws you ability to make a good case into question. Again, he didn't push him. They both struggle and fall in. Why would he push Gollum? He wants the ring. He just tried to take the ring for himself before Gollum bit his finger off. If you miss something this obvious how can I trust your other observations?

This example just stood out to me as missing the point of a scene to an egregious degreee. You've also said Goku had an arc where he came to terms with his Saiyan heritage. He hasn't really. Other than the initial shock he's more than fine with it from then on.

And it just doesn't make any sense that Goku and Vegeta would need to fuse if they were stronger than the villains. And I think by the time Vegetto is fused, the civilians are a ways away. They are in the city but just not ground zero. And once they are fused and have Zamasu on the ropes why would they take the time to move everyone instead of ending the threat as expediently as possible?

Pushing him in by accident is still pushing. Also because I watched DBS more recently. Since you didn't watch the show clearly i'll provide evidence. You aren't. I didn't miss the point the two struggle over the ring and as a resault Frodo pushes him in. It happens. Sure he wanted it for himself, but his struggle leads to Golem falling in. This is semantics and you know it. Also Goku did have an arc. You just don't pay attention. You clearly don't get Dragonball either because you act like people don't change in power compared to others...case in point, yes Vegeta was stronger but get this...Goku Black got stronger. Did you pay any sort of attention? Like any?
My point is, you could rework the story to make it so they would need to. They had moments when they were capable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8leAS6pM-k Here is Vegeta being stronger. It happened

There is no pushing. They struggle and both FALL over the edge. This isn't semantics. It's an important distinction. It's like you didn't even pay attention. You are digging in at this point and refuse to see the truth. Rewatch the scene and youtube. You are verifiably wrong. Besides your point was Frodo's arc was he came to terms with his heroism and threw the ring into mt doom. Not a single word of that is right.

Goku didn't have an arc. He had no strong aversion to being a Saiyan. He tells Kaio and Bahta that he's a Saiyan with zero reservation. Where is this big change that I'm supposedly missing?

The advantages that the heroes have over Zamasu are always transient, and not enough time to move the fight or the group.

[Mad Swami]

If anything Zamasu would want to keep the fight away from nature. He loves nature and hates people.

My point about LOTR is if you can't get the facts straight even right after watching something that throws you ability to make a good case into question. Again, he didn't push him. They both struggle and fall in. Why would he push Gollum? He wants the ring. He just tried to take the ring for himself before Gollum bit his finger off. If you miss something this obvious how can I trust your other observations?

This example just stood out to me as missing the point of a scene to an egregious degreee. You've also said Goku had an arc where he came to terms with his Saiyan heritage. He hasn't really. Other than the initial shock he's more than fine with it from then on.

And it just doesn't make any sense that Goku and Vegeta would need to fuse if they were stronger than the villains. And I think by the time Vegetto is fused, the civilians are a ways away. They are in the city but just not ground zero. And once they are fused and have Zamasu on the ropes why would they take the time to move everyone instead of ending the threat as expediently as possible?

Pushing him in by accident is still pushing. Also because I watched DBS more recently. Since you didn't watch the show clearly i'll provide evidence. You aren't. I didn't miss the point the two struggle over the ring and as a resault Frodo pushes him in. It happens. Sure he wanted it for himself, but his struggle leads to Golem falling in. This is semantics and you know it. Also Goku did have an arc. You just don't pay attention. You clearly don't get Dragonball either because you act like people don't change in power compared to others...case in point, yes Vegeta was stronger but get this...Goku Black got stronger. Did you pay any sort of attention? Like any?
My point is, you could rework the story to make it so they would need to. They had moments when they were capable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8leAS6pM-k Here is Vegeta being stronger. It happened

There is no pushing. They struggle and both FALL over the edge. This isn't semantics. It's an important distinction. It's like you didn't even pay attention. You are digging in at this point and refuse to see the truth. Rewatch the scene and youtube. You are verifiably wrong.

Goku didn't have an arc. He had no strong aversion to being a Saiyan. He tells Kaio and Bahta that he's a Saiyan with zero reservation. Where is this big change that I'm supposedly missing?

The advantages that the heroes have over Zamasu are always transient, and not enough time to move the fight or the group.

Yes they both fall. They struggle and fall. However its fair to call it pushing. Its the same stuff. Overall doesn't change anything. They struggle and fall leading to Frodo catching the ledge. I remember. However Golem was basically pushed off.

He hated his heritage. He denounced Saiyans, thought they were horrible. Then by the end of the series he is proud to be one. Rember the pannel where Vegeta says "Spoken like a true...Saiyan!" of course you probably forget because semantics aren't involved.

Plenty of time. Plenty. All you need is the amount of time he had. You are wrong on this yet again.