Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

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Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:17 pm

So when senzu beans were first introduced they made sense (or at least as something could make sense in Dragonball), where they helped fighters regain their lost strength or stamina after a battle. That was fine and it fit. However as the series went on, it became apparent senzu beans not only restored your strength...they literally miraculously healed any kind of serious injury!

Gohan gets his neck snapped by Recoome and was barely on the edge of life, somehow eating a bean fixed his entire neck. Yamcha gets an entire hand pushed right through his chest by Dr. Gero, somehow eating a senzu bean completely healed the huge hole in his chest (and we see how huge it is due to his clothing being ripped in a circle), and somehow regrows his lost body tissue? Piccolo is shot through his chest by Cell and dropped in the ocean when they were fighting on the islands, and somehow is saved by one despite being lost in the ocean for awhile on top of that before Goku came down to rescue him and Tenshinhan. Videl is also beating to a bloody pulp by Spopovich and the bean heals every single one of her injuries.

Like senzu beans are fine to restore lost strength and stamina as we've seen many times in the series, but for it to restore completely fatal injuries and stuff like broken necks and impalement, isn't it a bit much?

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:30 pm

No, they're not a deus ex machina. They're simply tools for the protagonists to use, plot devices to ensure that characters can stay in the action longer. They don't resolve the plots themselves. If a bean somehow sprouted arms and legs, leaped out of the bag and personally kicked Perfect Cell's ass with zero foreshadowing, then it would be a deus ex machina.

As for their ability to heal all injuries being contrived, well... although I've never liked the "lol it's magic we don't have to explain it" excuse, but in this case I've never really questioned it so I guess... it's magic, they don't have to explain it. Dende can completely heal a person's injuries just by waving his hands in front of the victim. On its face, is that really any less silly?

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:31 pm

Sure...? That's their entire purpose. A magic fix-it when needed, and when its known powers expand its abundance and availability conveniently dwindles.. I'm not quite sure what ground we'd be breaking with this discussion. They're one of DB's many plot tools, much like the Dragon Balls.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by precita » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:36 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:30 pm As for their ability to heal all injuries being contrived, well... although I've never liked the "lol it's magic we don't have to explain it" excuse, but in this case I've never really questioned it so I guess... it's magic, they don't have to explain it. Dende can completely heal a person's injuries just by waving his hands in front of the victim. On its face, is that really any less silly?
I suppose the difference is Dende isn't always there, he's not always on the battlefield. And when Freeza saw what Dende could do he immediately killed him so Krillin and Vegeta don't keep getting healed. After that he doesn't come to Earth till the end of the Cell arc so his powers aren't used for any of the fights. Boo saga...he just healed Tenshinhan.

They can have senzu beans on hand at any time, and for some reason they always have just the right amount of beans needed even though they always say they're running low or "there's only 3 left."

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:47 pm

No. I swear people just like throwing around fan speak terms around

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:48 pm

Yeah, they're pretty much just there to give the story extra turns and twists. I'd prefer not to rely on them too much, either.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:52 pm

No because they don't resolve the story. They're essentially a really fast acting medicine.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:56 pm

I think a better example of deus ex machina would be when Karin just happened to have Super God Water to give Goku a boost to defeat King Piccolo in the manga. The anime makes it a test of strength and character which negates the deus ex machina aspect.

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:01 pm

precita wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:36 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:30 pm As for their ability to heal all injuries being contrived, well... although I've never liked the "lol it's magic we don't have to explain it" excuse, but in this case I've never really questioned it so I guess... it's magic, they don't have to explain it. Dende can completely heal a person's injuries just by waving his hands in front of the victim. On its face, is that really any less silly?
I suppose the difference is Dende isn't always there, he's not always on the battlefield. And when Freeza saw what Dende could do he immediately killed him so Krillin and Vegeta don't keep getting healed. After that he doesn't come to Earth till the end of the Cell arc so his powers aren't used for any of the fights. Boo saga...he just healed Tenshinhan.

They can have senzu beans on hand at any time, and for some reason they always have just the right amount of beans needed even though they always say they're running low or "there's only 3 left."
True but the actual mechanics of it are no different. Dende uses magic to heal, the beans use magic to heal. And now Dende is God of Earth, he can leap down from heaven any time to give one of his massages to the dying at any convenient moment, as seen in the recent chapters of the Moro arc.

Salza from Cooler's Revenge was smart for burning the bag just as Gohan was about to bring it back to an injured Goku. Although Gohan luckily had one spare hidden in his belt, that felt like a really despairful moment after all the work it took to get them to the cave. Cell was also smart enough to take them away from the heroes after he felt firsthand what they can do, which gave Gohan an extra incentive to earn them back to heal his friends from the Cell Junior curbstomp.

What's always been more laughable to me is the fact that the bag always looks full but never seems to have more than like, five inside at a time. Maybe Krillin hides some ball bearings in there so he can use it as a flail weapon if the need arises.

Ngl I'm loving my Badass Sentient Senzu idea.

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by DBZfan29 » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:53 pm

This was the first question (how it healed the hole in Yamcha's chest) I asked on the podcast, back when they regularly took emails. It was at least a decade ago. I remember Mike or someone else shouting, "magic beans!" :lol:
An interviewer asks, "The soundtrack in Sonic 3 has become legendary. Is it true that you worked with Michael Jackson on it?" Takashi Iizuka kills all of our hopes and dreams by replying, "You know, those are just rumors, and SEGA does not want to say anything about them. So they will forever be just rumors..." WHY!?

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by Zestanor » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:54 pm

Yes but that’s fine. Like the eagles in Tolkien.

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:11 pm

I wanna see Senzu destroyed for dramatic effect in these storylines more often. That or just not rely on Senzu and have the battle not include them.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by ABED » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:26 pm

How is it any fundamentally different from medicine?
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:50 pm

precita wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:17 pm So when senzu beans were first introduced they made sense (or at least as something could make sense in Dragonball), where they helped fighters regain their lost strength or stamina after a battle.
This is fundamentally incorrect. When Senzu Beans are first introduced after Goku first climbs Korin's Tower, they fill up his belly. The next time we see them, Goku had his heart stopped by Daimao and was also pretty badly beaten up, and it's here where we first see their healing properties. This gets taken up even further at the end of the arc, where they heal Goku's broken legs and arm.

So no, I disagree with this assessment. As has been pointed out, after Yajirobe gorges on them, there barely enough to go around: Goku has to split one in half to heal both Krillin and Gohan for example.

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:34 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:56 pm I think a better example of deus ex machina would be when Karin just happened to have Super God Water to give Goku a boost to defeat King Piccolo in the manga. The anime makes it a test of strength and character which negates the deus ex machina aspect.
This 100%, that's an actual example of a Deus Ex moment. In the manga Goku is just handed a quick convenient power-up without any sort of trade off. No catches, no need to learn anything, no trials or tribulation , no real effort on his part. Then boom, he can go back down and kill Piccolo.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:24 am

I'd like to see a Senzu give Gokuu food poisoning. That would be an interesting way to take him out of a fight.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:10 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:24 am I'd like to see a Senzu give Gokuu food poisoning. That would be an interesting way to take him out of a fight.
Why would it though? That just seems unnecessarily random.


“Oh no the magic healing bean gave Goku food poisoning........somehow”

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:50 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:34 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:56 pm I think a better example of deus ex machina would be when Karin just happened to have Super God Water to give Goku a boost to defeat King Piccolo in the manga. The anime makes it a test of strength and character which negates the deus ex machina aspect.
This 100%, that's an actual example of a Deus Ex moment. In the manga Goku is just handed a quick convenient power-up without any sort of trade off. No catches, no need to learn anything, no trials or tribulation , no real effort on his part. Then boom, he can go back down and kill Piccolo.
The anime version of the Piccolo arc is honestly A LOT better than the manga version. One of the few times you can really say that. It makes the recycled elements of previous arcs a lot less obvious and just adds a fuller story.

Another example was the whole Tenshinhan story. Tien learning the Mafuba was a significant subplot...and then "LOL he broke the jar off screen and now he gets stomped the fuck out by Drum. Whoops!" In the anime he actually successfully pulls off the move, just not on the intended target, somehow survives, and STILL puts up a good fight despite being near death. Much better showing for him-his part in the arc doesn't feel wasted and useless.
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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:11 am

I don't think they are, mainly due to them never being around when they're needed. Goku gave up his last bean before fighting Vegeta, resulting in him suffering the worst defeat in his life. The beans were gone long before the fight with Freeza began on Namek. At the Cell games, they were all used up to recover from the Cell Jrs. They were nowhere to be seen during the fights with Buu. They're mainly used to prevent the plot from slowing down, rather than helping the heroes out during their main fights.

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Re: Are senzu beans just a deus ex machina?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:23 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:10 am
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:24 am I'd like to see a Senzu give Gokuu food poisoning. That would be an interesting way to take him out of a fight.
Why would it though? That just seems unnecessarily random.


“Oh no the magic healing bean gave Goku food poisoning........somehow”
"I told you to wait for the damned things to finish growing!" Or "Ah, a bad batch!" From Karin. Food goes bad sometimes, after all. It'd also just be a curve ball the series hasn't used yet.
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