If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

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Lightningexpose
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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Lightningexpose » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:07 pm

Vorige Waffe wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:04 pm
You'd barely get any noticeable quality increase of 16mm film on UHD. Maybe the movies, but not the series. And I don't think Funimation can justify spending money on a 4K restoration of a 300 episode TV series even with Sony money.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but what are you basing your conclusion off of, that 16mm wouldn’t be worth UHD/4K remastering?


Anyway I don’t get what this question the OP is asking means. Do you mean Blu-ray discs with dbox on them? I.e. DBox SD-BD? Or do you mean a brand new true HD remaster that happens to look identical to dbox but HD?

If it’s the former, yeah that’s like our best bet at a good future release since toei are being so stubborn on not properly HD scanning and remastering old 16mm shows. They last year released all of Hokuto no Ken on SD-BD with pony canyon’s footage so it’s possible this is the route they may choose for a DBZ Blu-ray. Reason I would accept this is because the dragon boxes (yes even r2j) have horrible compression artefacts that an SD-BD may solve. This will benefit fan projects such as colour correction etc since there’ll be more flexibility.

If it’s the 2nd point...then yeah I’d accept a true HD remaster that’s identical to Dragon Box but HD, but it’s not the ideal. Dbox has lots of issues like fringing/chromatic aberration that I would not want to see in a Blu-ray. Colours should also not resemble dbox but at least that wouldn’t be as bad as what it’s more likely to be in a future HD remaster, that is the iconic toei green shit.

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Vorige Waffe
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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Vorige Waffe » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:24 am

Lightningexpose wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:07 pm
Vorige Waffe wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:04 pm
You'd barely get any noticeable quality increase of 16mm film on UHD. Maybe the movies, but not the series. And I don't think Funimation can justify spending money on a 4K restoration of a 300 episode TV series even with Sony money.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but what are you basing your conclusion off of, that 16mm wouldn’t be worth UHD/4K remastering?


Anyway I don’t get what this question the OP is asking means. Do you mean Blu-ray discs with dbox on them? I.e. DBox SD-BD? Or do you mean a brand new true HD remaster that happens to look identical to dbox but HD?
16mm would be kind of a waste on 4K based on the amount of grain 16mm has. At 4K you'd be seeing really sharp, visible grain that makes up the film, at the point that it could be distracting. Now, if they did a 4K scan of the film, cleaned it up (i.e. clear up just enough of grain while keeping finer details in tact, like the Level sets did) then downscaled to 1080p, you'd get a really nice picture with a healthy amount of grain that wouldn't distract. You also have to factor in things like what type of film stock Toei used, the focusing, the aperture, and lighting that was used when Dragon Ball was being shot, and if it's worth to transfer over to 4K. Being that Dragon Ball was a weekly animated series made on the cheap, I doubt Toei printed the show on the highest quality film stock, barring those handful episodes shot on 35mm. Keep in mind also that a restoration would have to be done with Toei's camera negatives, as Funimation's prints are a generation or two removed from those, and a 4K restoration's of Funi's materials would absolutely bring out every defect in the film.

At best, I think 2K restoration downscaled to 1080p would be the ideal remaster the series would need

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by GhostEmperorX » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:15 pm

superrayman3 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:19 am
I'd consider buying it but there are certain criteria that must be met before I could justify committing to buy it 100% from day 1.

1. A fresh scan of the 16mm film negatives (if they don't want to go through the trouble of scanning the negatives again I'd be content with the RAW uncompressed DBOX footage before it was compressed for DVD).

2. Careful color correction to restore the colors to what they should be.

3.Careful DVNR to remove some of the grain with as minimal perceptible detail loss as possible (somewhere between the Level sets and Kai would be the sweet spot IMHO).

4. Literal frame-by-frame cleanup of the footage.

5. Use the original broadcast audio.

6. Include ALL DVD extras from the original DBOX release in addition to the content that Toei didn't include with the original DBOX such as the textless opening and credits sequences that were missing from the original DBOX's.

If Toei did these things fans would FINALLY have the DEFINITIVE home release of DB/Z/GT but I doubt they would go through all of that effort even though DB/Z/GT is one of Toei's biggest properties around and deserves such a meticulous treatment, it just doesn't seem like something Toei would do given their previous history when it comes to their treatment of their older animated material, I could end up being wrong and Toei WOULD go through all of that effort but I'm not getting my hopes up with such an idea.
At this point they should just outsource it to Sunrise. Too much to ask of Toei as it is.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:29 pm

Considering how TOEI handled buu kai (which I didn't really mind) I don't think TOEI would do the job a lot of people would want. Q-tec has better colors but their DNR (same with their work on AKIRA) has this weird focused/blurred look to it. But at this point, I'd almost take anything for a Dragon Ball bluray release..it needs an upgrade.

I'd love Discotek to work on Z or......have Sony remaster the series for FUNimation because Sony puts out awesome work.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Lightningexpose » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 pm

Discotek working on it would have no significant benefit to it besides the video encoding on the Blu-ray discs and maybe extra care towards what audio and extras are included. They can’t guarantee good remasters as they have to put out shitty remasters if that’s what’s given to them. Check their Cobra 4K and GE 999 movie BD.

They also likely don’t have the money to get the whole series film scanned and thoroughly restored if they had access to film masters.

Also, Qtec’s blurry look isn’t to do with their DNR, it’s to do with their terrible scanning. Kai being blurry because of DNR is one of the worst myths that’s been stuck on this forum for years (not as bad as the myth that Kai’s colours were a random modernisation attempt), but it’s actually to do with bad scanning. Their scans are just out of focus. Zeta Gundam’s BD has the same blurry look as Kai yet it has a lot more grain. You can also see the 2nd Cardcaptor Sakura Blu-ray to see their DNR doesn’t blur things.

The other myth that’s been on this site forever is that Kai’s blurry look is what 16mm looks like under grain...lol

Kai and some other Qtec stuff also have a vertical smear on them because of scanning. It’s motion blur captured from their reel turning during scanning. They didn’t set things up well enough to avoid this. This isn’t just a Qtec problem, kei17’s film scans also always have this issue I’ve noticed. But he’s an amateur so these flaws are to be expected, can’t say the same for Qtec.

Akira also doesn’t look any blurrier than the 2K BD. But, it’s also not any more detailed than the 2K BD. Problem with Akira (and a lot of big anime features for some reason) is that they never work from the negatives but instead some lame multi generational copy. No idea why this is the case. Anime studios are perfectly capable of remastering old anime TV series from 70s, 80s and 90s from the negatives but for some reason movies like Akira, Perfect Blue, Millennium Actress etc can’t be scanned from the negatives. I wonder if it’s actually anything to do with those negatives being lost or just because they’re movies that had plenty of reels made for theatrical viewings etc and they use whatever print is quickest and easiest to begin working with...
Last edited by Lightningexpose on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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eledoremassis02
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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by eledoremassis02 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:44 pm

Lightningexpose wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:36 pm
Discotek working on it would have no significant benefit to it besides the video encoding on the Blu-ray discs and maybe extra care towards what audio and extras are included. They can’t guarantee good remasters as they have to put out shitty remasters if that’s what’s given to them. Check their Cobra 4K and GE 999 movie BD.

They also likely don’t have the money to get the whole series film scanned and thoroughly restored if they had access to film masters.

Also, Qtec’s blurry look isn’t to do with their DNR, it’s to do with their terrible scanning. Kai being blurry because of DNR is one of the worst myths that’s been stuck on this forum for years, but it’s actually to do with bad scanning. Their scans are just out of focus. Zeta Gundam’s BD has the same blurry look as Kai yet it has a lot more grain. The other myth that’s been on this site forever is that Kai’s blurry look is what 16mm looks like under grain...lol

Kai and some other Qtec stuff also have a vertical smear on them which because of scanning. It’s motion blur captured from their reel turning during scanning. They didn’t set things up well enough to avoid this. This isn’t just a Qtec problem, kei17’s film scans also always have this issue I’ve noticed. But he’s an amateur so these flaws are to be expected, can’t say the same for Qtec.

Akira also doesn’t look any blurrier than the 2K BD. But, it’s also not any more detailed than the 2K BD. Problem with Akira (and a lot of big anime features for some reason) is that they never scan from the negatives but instead some lame multi generational copy. No idea why this is the case. Anime studios are perfectly capable of remastering old anime TV series from 70s, 80s and 90s from the negatives but for some reason movies like Akira, Perfect Blue, Millennium Actress etc can’t be scanned from the negatives. I wonder if it’s actually anything to do with those negatives being lost or just because they’re movies that had plenty of reels made for theatrical viewings and they use whatever print is quickest and easiest to begin working with...
Thanks for clearing that up, thats in fact worse lol. If Discotek did Z then FUNi has them scanned already. I don't expect FUNi to do anything related to Dragon Ball and I don't think we'll see them do a crowdfund for it. I think the ultimate problem with FUNi is that they are cheap and I get companies to need profit but I'm pretty sure that's a big reason why they are one of if not the biggest names in Anime in the west. I've worked for companies like that, even if they have high-profit margins they act like there one sneeze from going broke.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Kendamu » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:41 pm

Nope!

I supported Blu-ray specifically for the US and Japan to be in the same region for what I thought was the inevitable Toei DBZ Blu-rays. They never came and I'm satisfied with Funi's new DBZ Steelbooks. There's no reason for me to import DBZ anymore. The only time I did import is when the Orange Bricks were my only option in the US and I had hacked my DVD player to be all-region.

But if any of you wanna import a hypothetical Toei DBox Blu-ray, I will hypothetically watch your clips on YT in awe and tell you how hypothetically nice they are.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Kingbrockstar1995 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:38 am

Kendamu wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:41 pm
Nope!

I supported Blu-ray specifically for the US and Japan to be in the same region for what I thought was the inevitable Toei DBZ Blu-rays. They never came and I'm satisfied with Funi's new DBZ Steelbooks. There's no reason for me to import DBZ anymore. The only time I did import is when the Orange Bricks were my only option in the US and I had hacked my DVD player to be all-region.

But if any of you wanna import a hypothetical Toei DBox Blu-ray, I will hypothetically watch your clips on YT in awe and tell you how hypothetically nice they are.
i enjoy my steelbooks too so i may not either

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Vorige Waffe » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:32 am

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:29 pm
Sony remaster the series for FUNimation because Sony puts out awesome work.
Sony have a piss poor track record of putting out anime discs that aren't part of their Aniplex division. And if DBZ were released as an Aniplex product, well enjoy those Japanese prices on domestic American products.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:43 am

Vorige Waffe wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:32 am
If DBZ were released as an Aniplex product, well enjoy those Japanese prices on domestic American products.
I think an argument could be made that those prices would be worth it for a proper remaster, with the Japanese broadcast audio, & a completely new dub. I wouldn't pay those prices for anything else, but DB's an exception I'd definitely consider, especially for DB & GT. I prefer Kai to Z so I wouldn't bother with that.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by sangofe » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:49 am

Kingbrockstar1995 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:37 pm
who would import them?
I'd wait on the French release for them.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:43 am
Vorige Waffe wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:32 am
If DBZ were released as an Aniplex product, well enjoy those Japanese prices on domestic American products.
I think an argument could be made that those prices would be worth it for a proper remaster, with the Japanese broadcast audio, & a completely new dub. I wouldn't pay those prices for anything else, but DB's an exception I'd definitely consider, especially for DB & GT. I prefer Kai to Z so I wouldn't bother with that.
They'll never use the broadcast audio. Sadly. That's a project for the fans.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Vorige Waffe » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:55 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:43 am
Vorige Waffe wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:32 am
If DBZ were released as an Aniplex product, well enjoy those Japanese prices on domestic American products.
I think an argument could be made that those prices would be worth it for a proper remaster, with the Japanese broadcast audio, & a completely new dub. I wouldn't pay those prices for anything else, but DB's an exception I'd definitely consider, especially for DB & GT. I prefer Kai to Z so I wouldn't bother with that.
So you're willing to pay well over a thousand dollars for it? Because for the length of Dragon Ball alone that's what you'd get.

Also you're never going to see a luxurious Aniplex set for original Dragon Ball and especially not GT, and especially not for new dub because there aren't enough people willing to buy something at that cost to justify a new dub. Z has always been where the money is, and at some point you can't price out an audience that's so used to affordable releases.

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Re: If Toei ever announces they'll do a Blu-ray Dragon box

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:57 am

Vorige Waffe wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:55 am
So you're willing to pay well over a thousand dollars for it?

You're never going to see a luxurious Aniplex set for original Dragon Ball and especially not GT, and especially not for new dub because there aren't enough people willing to buy something at that cost to justify a new dub.
Are you serious ? that's how much they are ?

This is most likely true, unfortunately.

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