Super or GT poll

[Jack Bz]

GT's ending is effective and emotional but only because it strongly evokes the feeling and good memories from Dragon Ball and Z, and not the ride that GT takes us on itself.

I definitely prefer super. I think there's barely any good fighting choreography in GT at all. Honestly the only one that comes to mind right now is Goku vs Ledgic of all things. Super easily, easily beats in that regard. I also find super's expansion to the lore much more interesting than anything GT brought, and actually actively dislike most of GT's ideas that were new, such as the shadow dragons. I think the only good concept was the baby arc. Super took boring concepts like "an evil Goku" but made them more interesting than they had any right to be. I also really love how with ultra instinct it attempted to make it about the mastery of martial arts over just raw power, which made it feel really unique though they didn't follow through with the concept enough at times.

Super's biggest problem, in the anime at least, were its inconsistencies with the multiple writers and sometimes terrible animation. At its core I think it's the better product and feels more Dragon Ball, at times having that Toriyama sense of a wild journey where you don't know what's going to happen next. I remember actually being legitimately surprised when Zamasu showed up besides Goku black (I of course knew that Black was Zamasu but not that Zamasu had made allies between timelines).

The only thing I think GT clearly wins on is its amazing soundtrack that sounds like it's taking cues from final fantasy at times.

[precita]

Best way to compare:

Goku Black/Zamasu arc > Baby arc (although the Baby arc is probably the one good arc in GT)
Super's Android 17 >>>>> Super 17
Tournament of Power in terms of fights and character moments > Shadow Dragon arc
Blue/Ultra Instinct > SSJ4

Super also introduced a lot of memorable characters like Caulifa, Kale, Kefla, Cabba, Hit, Toppo, Jiren, the other Gods of Destruction and Angels, Zeno/Omni Kings, etc. The world building is just far better. 12 Universes all with their own Gods and Angels is something only Toriyama would come up with.

Problem is Super took awhile to get going, and really needed to focus more on characters not named Goku/Vegeta. The Universe 6 tournament should have been rewritten to at least let Gohan and Boo take part even if everything with Goku/Vegeta was the same.

[Matches Malone]

Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

Yes, it's been a common complaint for years prior to modern DB being a thing. The reason it's not a big deal now is because you've got the likes of Caulifla getting 3 forms out of nowhere. She went from not knowing what Ssj was to gaining the ability to use it, the grade forms, and Ssj2 on the spot.

[precita]

The common head canon from the old pre-Super days is Trunks/Goten simply inherited their fathers strength at the time Bulma/Chi-Chi were impregnated. Thus allowing them to become stronger at far younger ages.

It's still happening now. How does Pan as an infant already able to fly into Earth's atmosphere or at all? Not even Trunks flew when he was a baby in the Cell saga.

[Matches Malone]

The common head canon from the old pre-Super days is Trunks/Goten simply inherited their fathers strength at the time Bulma/Chi-Chi were impregnated. Thus allowing them to become stronger at far younger ages.

It's still happening now. How does Pan as an infant already able to fly into Earth's atmosphere or at all? Not even Trunks flew when he was a baby in the Cell saga.

I definitely agree with this theory, I was just pointing out people weren't happy with it as well.

[Skar]

My other problem with GT is the characters are even more wasted:

- Gohan really does nothing in GT. His Super portrayal isn't great but it's leagues beyond what he was in GT
- Piccolo shows up for pretty much 1 arc and dies immediately
- Trunks despite being a main character actually does very little, especially when they get back to Earth
- Goten is basically the same as in Super, he's treated as an afterthought
- Vegeta surprisingly does very little in GT, he really gets almost no focus till the final arc. I wonder if Super would ever do this
- Krillin/18 don't even show up till the 17 arc and Krillin immediately dies.
- Yamcha/Tien have no appearance till the finale.
- Boo does nothing and just fuses with Uub so we see nothing of him after

I mean it's mind boggling. GT literally treated the entire cast like an afterthought. I cannot see how anyone could not prefer how Super handled everyone.

I wouldn't say they were wasted. Most of these characters retired by the Cell and Buu sagas so I felt GT respected where they left off. In DBS, their contribution has mostly been defeating weak henchmen and tournament contestants. We know they all retire again by EoZ so it's just temporarily bringing them out of retirement for the sake of fan service.

I admit some of it was fun to watch since I get to relive the good old days but I wouldn't say they were wasted if we had less of them fighting. It would be like if Gero had a group of weaker androids or Babidi had more henchmen for Piccolo and the humans to fight against. It gives them a chance to contribute but doesn't really move the plot forward and obvious fan service.

[ABED]

Does anyone have this big of an issue with Trunks and Goten having no trouble turning Super Saiyan as youngsters without any training?

Yes, it's been a common complaint for years prior to modern DB being a thing. The reason it's not a big deal now is because you've got the likes of Caulifla getting 3 forms out of nowhere. She went from not knowing what Ssj was to gaining the ability to use it, the grade forms, and Ssj2 on the spot.

The issue was small in comparison. At worst, it was a minor annoyance, and people have got to stop abusing phrases like "out of nowhere". Caulifla had someone train her how to turn Super Saiyan. She had pain to draw on. It makes way more sense than sheltered kids somehow accessing it without training and without strong emotion.

GT's ending is effective and emotional but only because it strongly evokes the feeling and good memories from Dragon Ball and Z, and not the ride that GT takes us on itself.

GT was a hermetically sealed series. It was the end of what was to that point three shows, and endings are supposed to evoke the past. It's not just the end of GT, it's the ending of DB, DBZ, and GT.

[ShaggyBlanco]

I still don't get how people can complain about U6 (Base to SS2) when Broly exists (SS1 to SSB to ~SSG Gogeta in his first fight)

[ABED]

GT was a hermetically sealed series

Ugh, that should read, it was NOT a hermetically sealed series.

[DevilKing99]

I still don't get how people can complain about U6 (Base to SS2) when Broly exists (SS1 to SSB to ~SSG Gogeta in his first fight)

And they don't say shit Goku surpassing 100+ million gods in less than 60 years.

It was said Roshi trained for around 100 years for the Kamemaha and Goku mastered after seeing it once and so did Tien

It's the argument of hypocrisy to the fullest extent.

Gotenks went SSJ3 because he felt like it with zero actually fighting experience at all

Goten transformed into an SSJ before he even knew what flying and Ki even was.

[ABED]

I still don't get how people can complain about U6 (Base to SS2) when Broly exists (SS1 to SSB to ~SSG Gogeta in his first fight)

And they don't say shit Goku surpassing 100+ million gods in less than 60 years.

They are hypocrites to the fullest extent.

Gotenks went SSJ3 because he felt like it with zero actually fighting experience at all

Goku surpassing immortal gods never bothered me just by virtue of some are more naturally adept.

It's a story and not the sort of issue that should bother anyone.

[precita]

I still don't get how people can complain about U6 (Base to SS2) when Broly exists (SS1 to SSB to ~SSG Gogeta in his first fight)

The Broly movie is a fanservice movie. It really doesn't make sense a regular Saiyan can be up to Blue level, even beyond that whatever Gogeta's power is.

[90sDBZ]

I still don't get how people can complain about U6 (Base to SS2) when Broly exists (SS1 to SSB to ~SSG Gogeta in his first fight)

And they don't say shit Goku surpassing 100+ million gods in less than 60 years.

It was said Roshi trained for around 100 years for the Kamemaha and Goku mastered after seeing it once and so did Tien

It's the argument of hypocrisy to the fullest extent.

Gotenks went SSJ3 because he felt like it with zero actually fighting experience at all

Goten transformed into an SSJ before he even knew what flying and Ki even was.

The Roshi Kamehameha thing is a good example.

Although I think Gotenks can get away with having SS3, due to him being a fused warrior who spent at least some time in the Time Chamber. His SS1 power before going in was supposed to be greater than SS3 Goku, so him unlocking SS3 easily isn't that hard to believe.

I think the thing with Caulifa is part of a bigger issue, the issue being the crazy power scaling we see throughout Super. When Goku first went SSG, it was supposed to put him on a level far beyond other mortal characters, yet we see countless other characters hold their own against him. Pretty much none of these cases are given an explanation.

Okay Hit is a 1000 year old assassin so I buy that. But when you have countless random characters turning up at God level, it requires some serious suspension of disbelief.

We're given little to no background on the training these characters went through. We know Goku and Vegeta went through some exceptional circumstances to become who they were, and they're given God Ki on top of that. How is it that all these characters in the ToP can go toe-to-toe with them? How did 17 get to SSB Tier? Why does Goku need to go SSB to win a beam struggle with Krillin?

I'm not a massive fan of power level debates, but when you have such inexplicable jumps in power for so many characters on a consistent basis it's hard not to raise an eyebrow. It takes you out of the show at times. With a couple of exceptions, DB and Z both made it clear that character A was in a different league to character B, and that would only change with a solid and clear explanation.

[ABED]

Muten Roshi created the Kamehameha. It's a lot easier to copy something someone created than create something from scratch. Hardly a slamdunk. I have a bigger problem with bringing Roshi out of retirement to rehash his arc back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.

[precita]

So many mortals being able to match God/Blue is getting kind of odd. As far as I can tell it only happened with a few characters though:

- Freeza in Golden Form is still weaker than Blue.

- Goku Black who is literally in Goku's body, so it makes sense to have comparable power since Goku was already Blue when Zamasu body swapped with him. The other Zamasu was immortal and couldn't feel damage.

- Hit is like 1000+ years old, right? While it's a bit iffy there, at least there's some sort of explanation. Goku beat Botamo in his base form, and Vegeta was only Super Saiyan when he took out Frost, Magetta and same with Cabba. So they aren't at God level.

- 17 being able to match Blue power is where things generally go off the rails.

- In the TOP did we see anyone else resist Blue besides Jiren, Toppo, and Kefla? I don't remember. I think Dyspo fought the red God form.

[Koitsukai]

For the U6 saiyans, following the S-cells theory, I don't think it's crazy.

I see it as when you are leveling up in GTA V but don't pay attention to it, and then you go to the Ammu-Nation store and find out you now have access to the mini-gun, the RPG, etc. The U6 saiyans were as strong as DBS Goku and Vegeta (in base). If Goku had that much power in base back in Namek, going SS would've been much easier than it was. Not to mention it might've been overkill.

[Matches Malone]

For the U6 saiyans, following the S-cells theory, I don't think it's crazy.

I don't think there's a word in English that can describe how crazy it is. A Ssj2 Kefla is somehow able to put up a fight against UI Omen, which is leagues ahead of Blue, which is leagues ahead of God, which is leagues ahead of Ssj3, which is leagues ahead of Ssj2. How on earth is she that strong ? She should've been one shotted by SsjG.

Hit is a 1000 year old assassin so I buy that. But when you have countless random characters turning up at God level, it requires some serious suspension of disbelief.

The tournament of power pretty much threw logic out the window when it came to power scaling. There's the whole "but they were holding back" that super's fans use, but if that was the case why bother transforming into Blue in the first place ?

[90sDBZ]

So many mortals being able to match God/Blue is getting kind of odd.

It's even more odd when you consider Goku absorbed most of the God ki and was able to somewhat challenge Beerus in base.

It's not so much the fact that Cabba and Caulifa can go Super Saiyan. It's the fact that they're strong enough to hold their own against Goku and Vegeta in the first place, with or without Super Saiyan. Goku would be nothing to them if he hadn't gone through the God ritual, and there's no explanation for it other than them being Saiyans.

[WittyUsername]

Super obviously doesn’t care for power scaling in general. I’m not even sure why people are still trying to make sense of that stuff. The characters are as strong as they need to be. That’s all there is to it. I know that “who is stronger” debates have always been a thing in the fandom, but Toriyama, Toyatoro and Toei have made it clear that they simply aren’t interested in adhering to that.

[ShaggyBlanco]

So many mortals being able to match God/Blue is getting kind of odd.

It's even more odd when you consider Goku absorbed most of the God ki and was able to somewhat challenge Beerus in base.

It's not so much the fact that Cabba and Caulifa can go Super Saiyan. It's the fact that they're strong enough to hold their own against Goku and Vegeta in the first place, with or without Super Saiyan. Goku would be nothing to them if he hadn't gone through the God ritual, and there's no explanation for it other than them being Saiyans.

Its kinda weird that pretty much every saiyan has more "potential" or "natural talent" than Goku/Vegeta,the kids were already born stronger (compared to Kid Goku for Gohan and Namek for Goten/Trunks), U6's had their bases equal to them post God Ki and now Broly is... well Broly
If any of them actually trained enough or with an angel like Goku/Vegeta there would be no contest