If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

[ABED]

I don't think it's Goku becoming a mortal being. the in universe technical explanation of where he goes isn't the point. He's dead. That's what they are going for. Goku is giving his life to save the world one last time.

Shenlong may not have been under God's control, but he was bound to him. He couldn't grant certain wishes based on God's power, he dies when God dies, etc. This wasn't the case earlier in the series, when Shenlong had no creator and there were no limits to his power.

The Dragon Balls could only grant one wish and remained dormant for a year before being able to be used again.. There were always limits. None of that is fundamentally changed in any way that impacts the ending. The Dragon Balls were overused; the damage was already done.

Whether Dende can make the DB's dormant again doesn't matter because the Dragon Balls were overused. They could just be deactivated to prevent their use going forward, but it doesn't change what happened. There has to be a cost for overusing them. Shen Long and Kami might be linked but they are two separate beings with distinct sets of abilities.

Issues like this are innevitable when a story has an ending. Endings in large part sum up what came before, and trying to find multiple ways to close things that don't just reiterate the old ending(s) is difficult.

[ABED]

Also, can Dende just deactivate the Dragon Balls? Kami had talked about being disappointed by humanity and how the Dragon Balls were used, so why didn't he just deactivate them?

They are connected but only in the same way Piccolo and Kami were connected. They're connected metaphysically, but they they have their own natures.

[Mad Swami]

Also, can Dende just deactivate the Dragon Balls? Kami had talked about being disappointed by humanity and how the Dragon Balls were used, so why didn't he just deactivate them?

They are connected but only in the same way Piccolo and Kami were connected. They're connected metaphysically, but they they have their own natures.

The concept may be somewhat reinforced by Toriyama as in Dragonball Online Dende deactivates them and then reactivates them years later. Plus in that, he was able to divide the main set into like a couple of smaller ones.

[Mad Swami]

Shenlong operating independently at the end is a return to his pre-Piccolo writing, when he was his own god unconnected to any higher beings.

I agree about GT's ending being too sentimental, because it doesn't feel earned. It works well enough on its own, but if you try and connect DB and DBZ to it, it falls apart. It's like, wow that was great, it's over, but what happened to the real ending? Also GT stands so far apart from DB/DBZ in its own little world that it feels like a whole other series ending. They don't really reconcile in my view.

He was always independent. Three different beings created their own dragon but they didn't control them. When was Shen Long an agent of Dende or Kami?

Care to explain why you think the ending doesn't feel earned?

The GT ending is great but not because of GT. The ending works regardless of that series really and was even planned first before everything else in the series.

[Matches Malone]

GT stands so far apart from DB/DBZ in its own little world that it feels like a whole other series ending.

I don't see how it does, as the entire show resolves previous plot points. The first arc starts off where Z ended, with Goku training Uub. The Baby arc is connected to the Saiyans' past, The Super 17 arc focuses on a good number of characters from the past, & the shadow dragons arc is tied back to Old Kai's warning about overusing the dragon balls. The execution was off, I give you that, but it definitely fit in with what came before it.

The manga’s ending is much more simple, it doesn’t have nearly as big a sense of finality to it. It’s more of an “and the adventure continues” ending.

This is the biggest issue I have with the manga's ending, it just feels like any other chapter. For a franchise as big as DB was, with 520 chapters, 444 episodes, 17 movies, & 2 TV specials, it deserved a better ending, and GT thankfully gave it that.

[ABED]

Shenlong operating independently at the end is a return to his pre-Piccolo writing, when he was his own god unconnected to any higher beings.

I agree about GT's ending being too sentimental, because it doesn't feel earned. It works well enough on its own, but if you try and connect DB and DBZ to it, it falls apart. It's like, wow that was great, it's over, but what happened to the real ending? Also GT stands so far apart from DB/DBZ in its own little world that it feels like a whole other series ending. They don't really reconcile in my view.

He was always independent. Three different beings created their own dragon but they didn't control them. When was Shen Long an agent of Dende or Kami?

Care to explain why you think the ending doesn't feel earned?

The GT ending is great but not because of GT. The ending works regardless of that series really and was even planned first before everything else in the series.

I have no idea what this means. What does planning the ending have to do with the issue. You make it sound like that's not a positive. They had an idea of where they wanted the story to go. Many stories generally do.

I disagree that the manga's ending feels like any other chapter. It feels like an appropriate ending for DB. Goku wants to keep getting stronger, and the ending conveys that he's never going to stop striving to get improve.

[Mad Swami]

He was always independent. Three different beings created their own dragon but they didn't control them. When was Shen Long an agent of Dende or Kami?

Care to explain why you think the ending doesn't feel earned?

The GT ending is great but not because of GT. The ending works regardless of that series really and was even planned first before everything else in the series.

I have no idea what this means. What does planning the ending have to do with the issue. You make it sound like that's not a positive. They had an idea of where they wanted the story to go. Many stories generally do.

I disagree that the manga's ending feels like any other chapter. It feels like an appropriate ending for DB. Goku wants to keep getting stronger, and the ending conveys that he's never going to stop striving to get improve.

My main point is before the rest of GT was thought up of, that ending was written. Essentially it wasn't "They had an end point in mind"
it was "All they had at the start was that ending"

[ABED]

The GT ending is great but not because of GT. The ending works regardless of that series really and was even planned first before everything else in the series.

I have no idea what this means. What does planning the ending have to do with the issue. You make it sound like that's not a positive. They had an idea of where they wanted the story to go. Many stories generally do.

I disagree that the manga's ending feels like any other chapter. It feels like an appropriate ending for DB. Goku wants to keep getting stronger, and the ending conveys that he's never going to stop striving to get improve.

My main point is before the rest of GT was thought up of, that ending was written. Essentially it wasn't "They had an end point in mind"
it was "All they had at the start was that ending"

Are you claiming that as a negative or that it works because it was planned?

[Mad Swami]

I have no idea what this means. What does planning the ending have to do with the issue. You make it sound like that's not a positive. They had an idea of where they wanted the story to go. Many stories generally do.

I disagree that the manga's ending feels like any other chapter. It feels like an appropriate ending for DB. Goku wants to keep getting stronger, and the ending conveys that he's never going to stop striving to get improve.

My main point is before the rest of GT was thought up of, that ending was written. Essentially it wasn't "They had an end point in mind"
it was "All they had at the start was that ending"

Are you claiming that as a negative?

Yes I would say having no story and simply the final episode is a negative. There were no Shadow Dragons, no Baby, no anything just the last episode with Goku Jr. and what not.

[ABED]

My main point is before the rest of GT was thought up of, that ending was written. Essentially it wasn't "They had an end point in mind"
it was "All they had at the start was that ending"

Are you claiming that as a negative?

Yes I would say having no story and simply the final episode is a negative. There were no Shadow Dragons, no Baby, no anything just the last episode with Goku Jr. and what not.

They didn't have the story planned out and neither did Toriyama. Having just an ending is actually a good idea. It allows you to focus, but also the flexibility to pivot if something isn't working. I don't know where this idea that planning is necessary for good storytelling. The trap many writers who plan things out fall into is that they tick the boxes of all the plot points they planned to but ultimately failed to tell a compelling story.

[Mad Swami]

Are you claiming that as a negative?

Yes I would say having no story and simply the final episode is a negative. There were no Shadow Dragons, no Baby, no anything just the last episode with Goku Jr. and what not.

They didn't have the story planned out but neither did Toriyama. Having just an ending is actually a good idea. It allows you to focus, but also the flexibility to pivot if something isn't working. I don't know where this idea that planning is necessary for good storytelling.

Sure but they weren't nearly as skilled with writing on the fly as AT. Again, however, nothing in GT makes that ending work. It works because of Z and Og. Playing sentimental music and showing flashbacks to all of Goku's events can be done now and work just as well.

Planning is necessary for good novels, movies, and overall more serious story based stories. Like a Wes Anderson film is planned, or something like the Lighthouse. However, with Shonen planning is far less lenient I would concede. Stories need structure and should feel planned out. Tolkien didn't just write the Lord of the Rings as he went he probably planned it out through the different ways he wants to present his themes and ideas. Frodo's arc of experiencing corruption and moving past it (after he succumbs to the ring), the different characters and the way they'd tie into the story. How the book tackles fate, danger of power human nature, all planned. Or look at something like The Godfather.

But Shonen is dramatacally different so your right planning isn't critical. However, I would correct the blanket statment and retract it to "planning isn't as nescssary for Shonen"

[ABED]

GT was not a hermetically sealed show nor should it be. The ending isn't just GT's ending. It's the ending of all three shows. Playing schmaltzy music doesn't make the ending work. In fact playing overly sentimental music can often have the opposite effect.

And no, having a plan isn't necessary to tell a good story. That's verifiably wrong. Plenty of mystery novelists don't have a plan but they know their genre so well and the structure of what beats and when they have to hit them to make their story work.

Most TV shows aren't meticulously mapped out. They make it up as they go. At most, Vince Gilligan knew Walt would go from Mr. Chips to Scarface. The rest he made up. Hell, he initially thought they'd kill Jessie (the second lead) at the end of season 1 before the writers' strike that year cut their episode order in half. He realized how great Jessie's and Walt's chemistry was and kept him around. They showed Walt buying a machine gun at the beginning of season 5 and didn't know what he would do with it for nearly two years. They simply had enough time to figure it out. In On Writing, Stephen King talks about not writing with an outline.

Um, Lord of the Rings wasn't planned out

And lastly, stories shouldn't feel planned. They should feel organic. Stories should have structure, but that doesn't require planning. It doesn't matter how a storyteller works, just that the end product is entertaining. Some are meticulous planners, others are pantsers. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different. They all just need to accomplish the same goal, entertain the audience, it doesn't matter how they get there.

serious story based stories.

What's a story based story?

[Psajdak]

I used to think that planned stories are always better, because with stuff like foreshadowing twists, and even what we call deus ex machinas actually make sense, and aren't just asspulls, or retcons...

I may still feel the same about shorter stories, but when it comes to series that is going for an indefinite amount of time, frankly, while I still wish for some level of consistency, I also don't want for writers to be bounded by what their younger selves once decided.

Authors are people too, and their ideas, and feelings change over time, and at least for me, one of the reasons I love DB series is because it evolved as time passed.

[Mad Swami]

GT was not a hermetically sealed show nor should it be. The ending isn't just GT's ending. It's the ending of all three shows. Playing schmaltzy music doesn't make the ending work. In fact playing overly sentimental music can often have the opposite effect.

And no, having a plan isn't necessary to tell a good story. That's verifiably wrong. Plenty of mystery novelists don't have a plan but they know their genre so well and the structure of what beats and when they have to hit them to make their story work.

Most TV shows aren't meticulously mapped out. They make it up as they go. At most, Vince Gilligan knew Walt would go from Mr. Chips to Scarface. The rest he made up. Hell, he initially thought they'd kill Jessie (the second lead) at the end of season 1 before the writers' strike that year cut their episode order in half. He realized how great Jessie's and Walt's chemistry was and kept him around. They showed Walt buying a machine gun at the beginning of season 5 and didn't know what he would do with it for nearly two years. They simply had enough time to figure it out. In On Writing, Stephen King talks about not writing with an outline.

Um, Lord of the Rings wasn't planned out

And lastly, stories shouldn't feel planned. They should feel organic. Stories should have structure, but that doesn't require planning. It doesn't matter how a storyteller works, just that the end product is entertaining. Some are meticulous planners, others are pantsers. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different. They all just need to accomplish the same goal, entertain the audience, it doesn't matter how they get there.

serious story based stories.

What's a story based story?

What's a story based story? really? Breaking Bad, The Departed, 1984, etc. Obviously was referring to stories that are Narrative heavy. Unlike Dragonball which simply is not.

Lord of the RIngs had no planning? No first draft? Because I am pretty sure Lord of the Rings had a first draft.

I remember Jessie was initially planned to be kill which thank god they didn't because the show's quality would have severely dipped I fear. However, just because plans change doesn't mean there were no plans. Stephen King, I do not respect as his books I feel are pretty mediocre with his best work coming from film adaptations (The Shinning, Shawshank, Green Mile, Stand by me). I am not saying this to weaken your point, however, I will say Stephen King's writing shows that lack of direction which is a critical flaw of his work he even acknowledges with how he doesn't know how to end his stories.

Stories should feel organic....but not directionless. A story should have a cohesive flow and rhythm. Look at some of the best stories like 1984, Dr. Strangelove, or Reservoir Dogs. They never feel as if they don't know where to go, they organically flow. My point does not dispute that. He'll look at the best arcs of Dragonball, the story doesn't bounce around crazy alla Buu arc and flows naturally with a clear direction, alla Saiyan arc.

Mystery Authors don't release the first chapter of their book without having already planned who the killer/culprit is. Again they go through drafts. No tv series don't have every episode mapped out. However they plan what they want to do in an episode. They talk and again, draft it out.

EDIT: The only stories off the top of my head that feel really directionless but still hold immense quality are Big Lebowski and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. However the stories of those movies aren't the main thing, the characters and atmosphere/experience is. They purposfully don't lean heavily on their story in favor for a different style.

[ABED]

That wasn't helpful and no, I didn't know what you meant. I've never heard anyone use the term "story based story". I think you are hinting at plot driven stories.

A draft isn't planning, that's doing. Of course he had a first draft. Every story that has ever existed has a first draft. That's not what is meant by planning as opposed to pantsing. If that were true, then there would be no such thing as making a story up on the fly.

Hard disagree about King's writing.

Direction doesn't equate to planning.

Dr. Strangelove is terrible. It confuses making a point with telling a story.

And the nature of TV is completely different from film. Stop comparing the two. Films by and large tell a self contained limited story. TV by its nature is meant to sustain for much longer. As such, it can't afford to plan in excessive detail.

Mystery Authors don't release the first chapter of their book without having already planned who the killer/culprit is. Again they go through drafts. No tv series don't have every episode mapped out. However they plan what they want to do in an episode. They talk and again, draft it out.

Again, all wrong. A number of them don't actually plan how the culprit is from the start. They figure it out as they go then smooth it over in rewrites to make sure it makes sense. This can easily be researched. And drafts aren't planning, they are writing. Drafts aren't planning.

However, just because plans change doesn't mean there were no plans.

And it wasn't the plan that made it good. It was the ability to pivot. Writers don't need plans, they just need time. That's the biggest value in an outline, it saves time. It can definitely help to focus, but it's biggest value is saving time.

I used to think that planned stories are always better, because with stuff like foreshadowing twists,

A lot of foreshadowing isn't the result of intentional plants as much as writers paying attention to their own continuity.

[Mad Swami]

That wasn't helpful and no, I didn't know what you meant. I've never heard anyone use the term "story based story".

A draft isn't planning, that's doing. Of course he had a first draft. Every story that has ever existed has a first draft. That's not what is meant by planning as opposed to pantsing. If that were true, then there would be no such thing as making a story up on the fly.

Hard disagree about King's writing.

Direction doesn't equate to planning.

Dr. Strangelove is terrible. It confuses making a point with telling a story.

And the nature of TV is completely different from film. Stop comparing the two. Films by and large tell a self contained limited story. TV by its nature is meant to sustain for much longer. As such, it can't afford to plan in excessive detail.

Mystery Authors don't release the first chapter of their book without having already planned who the killer/culprit is. Again they go through drafts. No tv series don't have every episode mapped out. However, they plan what they want to do in an episode. They talk and again, draft it out.

Again, all wrong. A number of them don't actually plan how the culprit is from the start. This can easily be researched. And drafts aren't planning, they are writing. Drafts aren't planning.

Drafts are absolutely planning. They are literally a blueprint of a story. I can't find any details saying Toriyama drafted his original manga. Super was drafted somewhat but I can't find if he did the original. How are drafts not planning? They aren't the final product, They are a blueprint of the final product that is subject to change. Sometimes large and sometimes not. It's literally just a skeleton that an author looks at to make their story. Think of it like this. Was Toriyama's notes (drafts) a outline/plan for Super? answer yes. He never did that kind of thing for Og he took it one chapter at a time. He may have had rough ideas in his head but he wasn't doing the same thing he did for Super.

How was me saying "Narrative heavy story" wasn't helpful?

Tv and Movies are different yes. However so are books, manga, etc. My point is well structured stories of any medium share that quality of having a clear direction

Dr. Strangelove, one of Stanley Kubrick's masterpieces which is a hilarious black comedy about the cold war was terrible? How on Earth can I trust your opinion lol (joke different taste is fine. I sincerely can't believe you watched it and didn't see something incredible but hey no biggie)

Again you clearly misread my point. I never said they have it planned from the start, I said "Mystery Authors don't release the first chapter of their book without having already planned who the killer/culprit is." they write and plan and go back and tweak etc.

[Mad Swami]

And drafts aren't planning, they are writing. Drafts aren't planning.

They are. Drafts are a writer, writing out their story and thinking of the ideas along the way. They aren't meant to be seen because they aren't the full story/final product. They are the author going in with their ideas and working it out....planning.

[ABED]

Drafts aren't planning, they are the doing. Plans are what you do ahead of time. No, the outlines are the blueprints. Blueprints are used as a cheap way to see what a building will look like before the actual expensive and time consuming part of the process commences, but sometimes plans change even when construction is underway. At that point, it's not planning, it's building even though the structure isn't complete. Your analogy is very flawed.

Tv and Movies are different yes. However so are books, manga, etc. My point is well structured stories of any medium share that quality of having a clear direction

And well structured stories aren't necessarily entertaining. The point is to entertain the audience.

Dr. Strangelove, one of Stanley Kubrick's masterpieces which is a hilarious black comedy about the cold war was terrible? How on Earth can I trust your opinion lol (joke different taste is fine. I sincerely can't believe you watched it and didn't see something incredible but hey no biggie)

It wasn't funny at all. It wasn't interesting. The story is awful. No compelling characters. Making a point isn't telling a story. Kubrick is highly overrated and his best movies are ones where he tells a story - the first part of Full Metal Jacket, Spartacus, and The Shining.

I got your point, but writing and planning are two distinctly different activities.

They are. Drafts are a writer, writing out their story and thinking of the ideas along the way. They aren't meant to be seen because they aren't the full story/final product. They are the author going in with their ideas and working it out....planning.

No, that's writing. Planning is what you do before an activity.

[Mad Swami]

However, just because plans change doesn't mean there were no plans.

And it wasn't the plan that made it good. It was the ability to pivot. Writers don't need plans, they just need time. That's the biggest value in an outline, it saves time. It can definitely help to focus, but it's biggest value is saving time.

Not my point. My point is sure plans change but they exist. Sure it wasn't the plan that helped Breaking Bad continue strong for 4 more seasons, it was the writers looking at their plan and working in the character of Jessie due to fan love and the on-screen chemistry between Arron Paul (Jessie) and Bryan Cranston (Walter White).

So what do they do? Just write and go "welp Jessie is in it now"
no.
they go "Alright back to our notes, I think we can make this work lets see what we should do..."


Mr Robot is another fine example of a television show having excellent planning and hey would you look at that its one of the best things to come from tv in the last few years.

[ABED]

So what do they do? Just write and go "welp Jessie is in it now"
no.
they go "Alright back to our notes, I think we can make this work lets see what we should do..."

That's not what happened. You claimed Lord of the Rings was planned even though that's verifiably false. I don't trust your account of how anyone's writing process works.

It's not the very act of a plan existing that makes any bit of writing work. "plans change, but they still have plans" and that shows that it isn't the plan that makes it good. It's the ability to see a good idea and follow it through. How they arrive at the idea and execute that matters. Every writer's process is different.

GT's issues have ZERO to do with a lack of a plan. It's simply poor execution full of flat to non existant character arcs, and boring fights. There was an initial plan to evoke early DB, but it's clear they pivoted when they felt it wasn't working and went back to tried and true formula of later Dragon Ball that had been in effect since Piccolo Daimao.