If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

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Mad Swami
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:29 pm
Drafts aren't planning, they are the doing. Plans are what you do ahead of time. No, the outlines are the blueprints. Blueprints are used as a cheap way to see what a building will look like before the actual expensive and time consuming part of the process commences, but sometimes plans change even when construction is underway. At that point, it's not planning, it's building even though the structure isn't complete. Your analogy is very flawed.
Tv and Movies are different yes. However so are books, manga, etc. My point is well structured stories of any medium share that quality of having a clear direction
And well structured stories aren't necessarily entertaining. The point is to entertain the audience.
Dr. Strangelove, one of Stanley Kubrick's masterpieces which is a hilarious black comedy about the cold war was terrible? How on Earth can I trust your opinion lol (joke different taste is fine. I sincerely can't believe you watched it and didn't see something incredible but hey no biggie)
It wasn't funny at all. It wasn't interesting. The story is awful. No compelling characters. Making a point isn't telling a story. Kubrick is highly overrated and his best movies are ones where he tells a story - the first part of Full Metal Jacket, Spartacus, and The Shining.

I got your point, but writing and planning are two distinctly different activities.
They are. Drafts are a writer, writing out their story and thinking of the ideas along the way. They aren't meant to be seen because they aren't the full story/final product. They are the author going in with their ideas and working it out....planning.
No, that's writing. Planning is what you do before an activity.
Dr. Strngelove isn't reliant on a story, it is complete satire. Its story is just a mission during the Cold War. Again not its main point. I think it's really funny I mean comedy is subjective but "no fighting in the war room"
"mein Fuhrer, I can walk-"
I think you went in expecting the wrong thing. it's a remarkably smart comedy that really stands the test of time.

Do you think planning is exclusive to simply talking or thinking? Do you not see notes as planning? Drafts are writing....but it's not exclusionary.

That blueprint point was the silliest thing I have read. Blueprints are yes, something Civil Engineers work with....however you act like you have never heard that applied to stories or anything else.

Ok well I am entertained by rich storytelling and good planning. That's what I enjoy. However some audience members like other things. Some stories aren't about entertaining someone. They have a message that they want to tell. Some authors write what they want and hope as a bonus people gravitate to their work so they are paid. Artistic integrity and what not.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:34 pm
So what do they do? Just write and go "welp Jessie is in it now"
no.
they go "Alright back to our notes, I think we can make this work lets see what we should do..."
That's not what happened. You claimed Lord of the Rings was planned even though that's verifiably false. I don't trust your account of how anyone's writing process works.

It's not the very act of a plan existing that makes any bit of writing work. "plans change, but they still have plans" and that shows that it isn't the plan that makes it good. It's the ability to see a good idea and follow it through. How they arrive at the idea and execute that matters. Every writer's process is different.
You've done nothing to prove Lord of the rings wasn't planned because drafts are planning in a sense and it had drafts. And hey man you don't trust me on that fine but like prove me wrong without saying "I don't believe you". I personally don't trust your opinions on the topic if you can't see how drafts are planning in any shape.

Yes every writers process is different I am not saying they all do the same. My only point is a lot of the highest forms of art and good storytelling involved planning.

Draft: In the context of written composition, "drafting" refers to any process of generating preliminary versions of a written work. Drafting happens at any stage of the writing process as writers generate trial versions of the text they're developing.

Sounds like an author writting his story out and planning it out in more detail

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:48 pm

The Simpsons was a satire, but they still told stories. I know what the movie was but making a point isn't entertaining by itself. It also isn't funny.
Do you not see notes as planning? Drafts are writing....but it's not exclusionary.
A note is a shorthand. and nowhere in any of my replies do I even imply that I not see notes as planning. Writing is writing, it's not thinking on paper. It's clear you think drafts are akin to note taking, which sounds like someone highlighting every word of a textbook and calling that highlighting.
That blueprint point was the silliest thing I have read.
Your point confusing planning with drafting is the funniest thing I've read.
Some stories aren't about entertaining someone. They have a message that they want to tell. Some authors write what they want and hope as a bonus people gravitate to their work so they are paid. Artistic integrity and what not.
They are about entertaining people. You can do both, entertain them and give them a message, but if your fundamental aim is to whip a message at them, you've picked the wrong damn medium to do it. If you have a message you want to give, you first need to entertain the audience, otherwise right non-fiction.
Sounds like an author writting his story out and planning it out in more detail
By that "logic" the only way any writing isn't planning is if there are no changes and someone just publishes the first copy, which no author could do. And if that's the case, then even GT's writers had plans.

But you're wrong, planning isn't everything short of the final completed draft.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:55 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:48 pm
The Simpsons was a satire, but they still told stories. I know what the movie was but making a point isn't entertaining by itself.
Do you not see notes as planning? Drafts are writing....but it's not exclusionary.
A note is a shorthand. and nowhere in any of my replies do I even imply that I not see notes as planning. Writing is writing, it's not thinking on paper. It's clear you think drafts are akin to note taking, which sounds like someone highlighting every word of a textbook and calling that highlighting.

That blueprint point was the silliest thing I have read.
Your point confusing planning with drafting is the funniest thing I've read.
Some stories aren't about entertaining someone. They have a message that they want to tell. Some authors write what they want and hope as a bonus people gravitate to their work so they are paid. Artistic integrity and what not.
They are about entertaining people. You can do both, entertain them and give them a message, but if your fundamental aim is to whip a message at them, you've picked the wrong damn medium to do it. If you have a message you want to give, you first need to entertain the audience, otherwise right non-fiction.
Sounds like an author writing his story out and planning it out in more detail
By that "logic" the only way any writing isn't planning is if there are no changes and someone just publishes the first copy.
Simpsons is more reliant on a story. It is a sitcom. Dr. Strangelove isn't about the story. Some movies/tv/books aren't heavily focused on their story

My point on saying drafting is a form of planning is the funniest thing you have ever read? Your life is boring. No, but in all seriousness, I just fail to comprehend how a writer going through and writing out the ideas they have and then working on them doesn't count as planning in any way.

My point about the notes was simply because you are writting something down it counts as planning. Here let me try and restructure my point a little bit. Drafting is something an Author does without fully intending to realese yet and instead develop what they have already/ think of ideas. Therefore, it would count as a type of planning as planning is the process in which an author thinks about their story or whatever for the final product. So in the end when an author makes a draft they usually don't intend for that to be their product instead trying to work on their ideas and plan it out more through winging it in a rough copy.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:00 pm

I was being facetious. You made a ridiculous claim, I'm calling it out. A plan is a representation of something, but a draft is not that. It is the thing. It's not usually the end product in its most polished form, but it's the act of doing it. It's not planning.
I just fail to comprehend how a writer going through and writing out the ideas they have and then working on them doesn't count as planning in any way.
There's a difference between outlining and writing. Planning is a representation of something. I get what you are saying but writing and planning are two different acts.

If early drafts are planning, that undercuts your point about GT not having a plan.

Notes and writing a manuscript/screenplay, etc. are different. Notes are brief.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:03 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:00 pm
I was being facetious. You made a ridiculous claim, I'm calling it out. A plan is a representation of something, but a draft is not that. It is the thing. It's not usually the end product in its most polished form, but it's the act of doing it. It's not planning.
I just fail to comprehend how a writer going through and writing out the ideas they have and then working on them doesn't count as planning in any way.
There's a difference between outlining and writing. Planning is a representation of something. I get what you are saying but writing and planning are two different acts.

If early drafts are planning, that undercuts your point about GT not having a plan.
Alright lets reel it back because we are starting to see a little eye to eye about are respective points. Back to DB and GT. How does my thought process that early drafts count as a type of planning affect my point on GT seeming directionless? Again keep in mind I said Shonen/Manga are very different

A draft is an outline I would say

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm

A draft is an outline I would say
This is verifiably incorrect. An outline is a planning tool to help see the essay or story, etc. at a glance. By it's nature, it's much shorter. Even the word implies they aren't the same.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:00 pm
I was being facetious. You made a ridiculous claim, I'm calling it out. A plan is a representation of something, but a draft is not that. It is the thing. It's not usually the end product in its most polished form, but it's the act of doing it. It's not planning.
I just fail to comprehend how a writer going through and writing out the ideas they have and then working on them doesn't count as planning in any way.
There's a difference between outlining and writing. Planning is a representation of something. I get what you are saying but writing and planning are two different acts.

If early drafts are planning, that undercuts your point about GT not having a plan.

Notes and writing a manuscript/screenplay, etc. are different. Notes are brief.
Some Drafts are brief. Some don't cover the full story

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm
A draft is an outline I would say
This is verifiably incorrect. An outline is a planning tool to help see the essay or story, etc. at a glance. By it's nature, it's much shorter. Even the word implies they aren't the same.
A draft accomplishes those things. A writer might set out to write a draft to do all of that. Except size drafts are notably larger. However an outline is not some rule bound term. Drafts are a type of outline a good deal of the time but again back to DB

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:10 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm
A draft is an outline I would say
This is verifiably incorrect. An outline is a planning tool to help see the essay or story, etc. at a glance. By it's nature, it's much shorter. Even the word implies they aren't the same.
A draft accomplishes those things. A writer might set out to write a draft to do all of that. Except size drafts are notably larger. However, an outline is not some rule-bound term. Look at all the drafts of Alien 3, they sound more like outlines but are called drafts because they can be similar. Drafts are a type of outline a good deal of the time but again back to DB

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:11 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:00 pm
I was being facetious. You made a ridiculous claim, I'm calling it out. A plan is a representation of something, but a draft is not that. It is the thing. It's not usually the end product in its most polished form, but it's the act of doing it. It's not planning.
I just fail to comprehend how a writer going through and writing out the ideas they have and then working on them doesn't count as planning in any way.
There's a difference between outlining and writing. Planning is a representation of something. I get what you are saying but writing and planning are two different acts.

If early drafts are planning, that undercuts your point about GT not having a plan.

Notes and writing a manuscript/screenplay, etc. are different. Notes are brief.
Some Drafts are brief. Some don't cover the full story
Those drafts are the story.
A draft accomplishes those things. A writer might set out to write a draft to do all of that. Except size drafts are notably larger. However an outline is not some rule bound term. Drafts are a type of outline a good deal of the time but again back to DB
As not only someone who has written his fairshare, but is also brothers with a published author, I can tell you, none of what you wrote here is correct.

You made the point that DBGT had an ending but no plan. Now you're saying, drafts are plans. If that's the case, every story is planned.

Anyway, having an ending was good for GT. Even though I have issues with the series as a whole, the ending felt inevitable. It was a rocky ride, but it felt like a very natural place to conclude a DB series after Toriyama had already ended his story. I thought it was a genuinely great idea to pick up the thread that Toriyama left dangling - the idea of overusing the DB's, and bring some resolution to it.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Mad Swami
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:11 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:07 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:00 pm
I was being facetious. You made a ridiculous claim, I'm calling it out. A plan is a representation of something, but a draft is not that. It is the thing. It's not usually the end product in its most polished form, but it's the act of doing it. It's not planning.


There's a difference between outlining and writing. Planning is a representation of something. I get what you are saying but writing and planning are two different acts.

If early drafts are planning, that undercuts your point about GT not having a plan.

Notes and writing a manuscript/screenplay, etc. are different. Notes are brief.
Some Drafts are brief. Some don't cover the full story
Those drafts are the story.
A draft accomplishes those things. A writer might set out to write a draft to do all of that. Except size drafts are notably larger. However an outline is not some rule bound term. Drafts are a type of outline a good deal of the time but again back to DB
As not only someone who has written his fairshare, but is also brothers with a published author, I can tell you, none of what you wrote here is correct.

You made the point that DBGT had an ending but no plan. Now you're saying, drafts are plans. If that's the case, every story is planned.

Anyway, having an ending was good for GT. Even though I have issues with the series as a whole, the ending felt inevitable. It was a rocky ride, but it felt like a very natural place to conclude a DB series after Toriyama had already ended his story. I thought it was a genuinely great idea to pick up the thread that Toriyama left dangling - the idea of overusing the DB's, and bring some resolution to it.
I'll finish it out by saying a few things.

1. No I was correct, a draft can be used similarly to an outline. You can't say I am wrong because you disagree. Back up brah

2. I also write a great deal as it's my dream occupation. When I write drafts I do exactly what I said and other authors do as well. Who is your brother? Just curious as to what is work encompasses. However I guess I could see you wanting to keep that private which is fair but as far as I am concerned you could just be saying that as a sad attempt at authority. Not that you are just saying. I merley wish to look as a friendly glance.

3. Gt Had the ending of the story planned without knowing a clear way to get there. my point isn't Gt writers never planned their story as they wrote, just that they didn't have a clear plan leading to that ending and it weakens the ending overall despite the ending being really good. GT just felt aimless and that was my point. (Ironic given the fact they had the ending down)

4. Your point makes it seem as though planning and writting cant be done at the same time which is laughable.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:51 pm

1. I won't back up, you're flat out wrong. A draft isn't planning, it's doing. It is by its nature not a plan.
2. My brother is Don Watkins. He writes about philosophy and politics and his first novel will be published next year (I think).
just that they didn't have a clear plan leading to that ending and it weakens the ending overall despite the ending being really good. GT just felt aimless and that was my point. (Ironic given the fact they had the ending down)
Because the plan isn't the point. They don't need a clear plan because the plan is not the point. It's the end product that is the point. A plan is just one way to get there.
4. Your point makes it seem as though planning and writting cant be done at the same time which is laughable.
Feel free to make youself laugh because you would be laughing at a strawman argument. All I'm saying is they are two distinct acts. You have a tendency to do that, and then obnoxiously condescendingly laugh. You haven't earned the right to talk down to me, so back up... brah. If you are unclear about a point, don't assume, just ask. This is a discussion forum afterall.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:54 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:51 pm
1. I won't back up, you're flat out wrong. A draft isn't planning, it's doing. It is by its nature not a plan.
2. My brother is Don Watkins. He writes about philosophy and politics and his first novel will be published next year (I think).
just that they didn't have a clear plan leading to that ending and it weakens the ending overall despite the ending being really good. GT just felt aimless and that was my point. (Ironic given the fact they had the ending down)
Because the plan isn't the point. They don't need a clear plan because the plan is not the point. It's the end product that is the point. A plan is just one way to get there.
4. Your point makes it seem as though planning and writting cant be done at the same time which is laughable.
Feel free to make youself laugh because you would be laughing at a strawman argument. All I'm saying is they are two distinct acts.
but they aren't just done exclusively you can plan during your writing process.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:58 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:54 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:51 pm
1. I won't back up, you're flat out wrong. A draft isn't planning, it's doing. It is by its nature not a plan.
2. My brother is Don Watkins. He writes about philosophy and politics and his first novel will be published next year (I think).
just that they didn't have a clear plan leading to that ending and it weakens the ending overall despite the ending being really good. GT just felt aimless and that was my point. (Ironic given the fact they had the ending down)
Because the plan isn't the point. They don't need a clear plan because the plan is not the point. It's the end product that is the point. A plan is just one way to get there.
4. Your point makes it seem as though planning and writting cant be done at the same time which is laughable.
Feel free to make youself laugh because you would be laughing at a strawman argument. All I'm saying is they are two distinct acts.
but they aren't you can plan during your writing process.
I can walk and chew gum at the same time, but they are two different things. I can write, realize something isn't working, then plan something else then resume writing and it can be quick plan, but they are all separate acts.

Shooting a film isn't planning even though films take a different form than what gets shot, very often.

I'm not claiming, nor have I ever claimed that planning ONLY happens prior to starting something. Generally speaking, that's the where the bulk of the planning happens.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:39 pm

Specifically drafting a story I will always consider planning but oh well. I see your point you see mine.

more appalled by the disrespect to Dr. Strangelove lol

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