Dubs shouldnt bend over backwards to please purists. Subs shouldnt plase Casuals

[Planetnamek]

You're the only one I see "Crying" here, spare me the tiresome flame bait and trolling already. I'm going to call you out on your nonsense and there's nothing you can do about that "kid".

Naw, I’m good. You’re the child that cries bully at every opportunity. I’m surprised you didn’t accuse Abed and/or myself of being “Alt right” yet, as that’s your speed. You’re learning, boy. Well, you still use “no u” arguments, so there’s still wok to be done.

Nah you're the only "child" here, crying wolf and trying to get your revenge against me because of what happened all those months ago.

Well I wasn't going to accuse of that, but now that you mention it, yeah you kind of are starting to sound like one of those alt-right trolls right now

You still think it's cute for you to chime in when nobody asked your opinion like some unwanted pest.

Also it's "work to be done", FFS at least use proper grammar if you're going to try and insult me, looks it's like you that needs some "learning" "boy".

You going to start randomly insulting me out of nowhere again like you did all those months ago? Cause that seems more your speed. You don't actually care about what's being discussed in this thread, you only see what you think is a moment of weakness from me and you're trying to jump in for the kill. Well sorry to disappoint you but you're not going to get what you want.

P.S. i've had other users PM me about you bullying them, so don't play innocent here.

[CuppaKofe]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

[ABED]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Would you mind summing up a 30 minute video or listing a few points?

[kemuri07]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

It's kinda why when people go on tangents about wanting a 100% accurate dub, I believe it's an oversimplification of the localization process. It's why it cost a shit ton of money for game publishers to localize video games because it's a exhausting effort that goes beyond simply translating the script. You have to make it make sense for a western audience.

It's something that I've begun to appreciate more and more as I continue my japanese learning language. There are things that just do not work in an english-language setting. That's why most english dubs are considered "adaptations" rather than outright translations.

[Planetnamek]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Yes it is pathetic when another user tries to horn in on a discussion between two people for no reason other then to try and cause trouble.

Anyways thank you for the video, that was very interesting and informative.

To further get back on topic I agree that dubs shouldn't have to bend over backwards to appease fans of the original anime, I recall there was one movie that Funimation had given a somewhat humorous dub and after a screening(I think it was at AVX) with a raucous audiences Toei execs got angry and demanded a more faithful dub even after Funi execs tried to explain that just because the audience was making jokes does not mean their dub was being disrespectful to the original, but Toei wouldn't listen and as a result a lot of fans found the officially released dub to be a little too stiff.

Forgot what film that was, but it's a damn shame that a good piece of work got lost because Toei overreacted.

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

It's kinda why when people go on tangents about wanting a 100% accurate dub, I believe it's an oversimplification of the localization process. It's why it cost a shit ton of money for game publishers to localize video games because it's a exhausting effort that goes beyond simply translating the script. You have to make it make sense for a western audience.

It's something that I've begun to appreciate more and more as I continue my japanese learning language. There are things that just do not work in an english-language setting. That's why most english dubs are considered "adaptations" rather than outright translations.

Yes I suspect that's why the Yakuza video games didn't do any more English dubs after the first game when localizing them for the west, because it simply costed too much money and after the first game didn't do so hot in sales over here they figured it wasn't worth the effort to pay for big-name actors like Rachel Leigh Cook, Mark Hammil, Eliza Dushku and Michael Madsen for any future sequels when they could just save money by just sticking with the original language with subtitles.

[kemuri07]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Would you mind summing up a 30 minute video or listing a few points?

essentially localization is a lot more complicated than fans seem to realize, and that there are more important things that fans should care about. Like making sure people who put in the time and effort to adapt a project get paid, instead of getting pissy because certain aspects of the script changed to accomodate western audiences.

[kemuri07]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Yes it is pathetic when another user tries to horn in on a discussion between two people for no reason other then to try and cause trouble.

Anyways thank you for the video, that was very interesting and informative.

To further get back on topic I agree that dubs shouldn't have to bend over backwards to appease fans of the original anime, I recall there was one movie that Funimation had given a somewhat humorous dub and after a screening(I think it was at AVX) with a raucous audiences Toei execs got angry and demanded a more faithful dub even after Funi execs tried to explain that just because the audience was making jokes does not mean their dub was being disrespectful to the original, but Toei wouldn't listen and as a result a lot of fans found the officially released dub to be a little too stiff.

Forgot what film that was, but it's a damn shame that a good piece of work got lost because Toei overreacted.

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

It's kinda why when people go on tangents about wanting a 100% accurate dub, I believe it's an oversimplification of the localization process. It's why it cost a shit ton of money for game publishers to localize video games because it's a exhausting effort that goes beyond simply translating the script. You have to make it make sense for a western audience.

It's something that I've begun to appreciate more and more as I continue my japanese learning language. There are things that just do not work in an english-language setting. That's why most english dubs are considered "adaptations" rather than outright translations.

Yes I suspect that's why the Yakuza video games didn't do any more English dubs after the first game when localizing them for the west, because it simply costed too much money and after the first game didn't do so hot in sales over here they figured it wasn't worth the effort to pay for big-name actors like Rachel Leigh Cook, Mark Hammil, Eliza Dushku and Michael Madsen for any future sequels when they could just save money by just sticking with the original language with subtitles.

1. maybe drop the argument. Not worth it my guy.

2. Even within subtitles, it's not a 1-1 accurate translation because again: you need to make it make sense for an english listening/reading audience. So when I play Yakuza, while I won't say that I can understand everything, I do notice things that don't line up with what's being said.

[Planetnamek]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Yes it is pathetic when another user tries to horn in on a discussion between two people for no reason other then to try and cause trouble.

Anyways thank you for the video, that was very interesting and informative.

To further get back on topic I agree that dubs shouldn't have to bend over backwards to appease fans of the original anime, I recall there was one movie that Funimation had given a somewhat humorous dub and after a screening(I think it was at AVX) with a raucous audiences Toei execs got angry and demanded a more faithful dub even after Funi execs tried to explain that just because the audience was making jokes does not mean their dub was being disrespectful to the original, but Toei wouldn't listen and as a result a lot of fans found the officially released dub to be a little too stiff.

Forgot what film that was, but it's a damn shame that a good piece of work got lost because Toei overreacted.

It's kinda why when people go on tangents about wanting a 100% accurate dub, I believe it's an oversimplification of the localization process. It's why it cost a shit ton of money for game publishers to localize video games because it's a exhausting effort that goes beyond simply translating the script. You have to make it make sense for a western audience.

It's something that I've begun to appreciate more and more as I continue my japanese learning language. There are things that just do not work in an english-language setting. That's why most english dubs are considered "adaptations" rather than outright translations.

Yes I suspect that's why the Yakuza video games didn't do any more English dubs after the first game when localizing them for the west, because it simply costed too much money and after the first game didn't do so hot in sales over here they figured it wasn't worth the effort to pay for big-name actors like Rachel Leigh Cook, Mark Hammil, Eliza Dushku and Michael Madsen for any future sequels when they could just save money by just sticking with the original language with subtitles.

1. maybe drop the argument. Not worth it my guy.

2. Even within subtitles, it's not a 1-1 accurate translation because again: you need to make it make sense for an english listening/reading audience. So when I play Yakuza, while I won't say that I can understand everything, I do notice things that don't line up with what's being said.

Don't worry i'm over it, me and ABED worked it out through PMs.

What are some examples of not lining up with what's being said? Can't say i've ever noticed that myself.

[ABED]

This is fucking pathetic.

Anyway, I figured I'd drop this great video about the localization process when it comes to anime and manga as it's relevant to the topic. It's pretty informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb2F0tfY1A0

I definitely get why there's such a difference between sub and dub localizations.

Would you mind summing up a 30 minute video or listing a few points?

essentially localization is a lot more complicated than fans seem to realize, and that there are more important things that fans should care about. Like making sure people who put in the time and effort to adapt a project get paid, instead of getting pissy because certain aspects of the script changed to accomodate western audiences.

Ah thanks, makes sense.

Interesting planetnamek brought up humor in a dub. Comedies tend not to do well overseas since much of it is culturally specific. What does tend to translate better is physical action, including physical comedy. It's a big reason why Kramer is a favorite among foreign audiences.

[Planetnamek]

Would you mind summing up a 30 minute video or listing a few points?

essentially localization is a lot more complicated than fans seem to realize, and that there are more important things that fans should care about. Like making sure people who put in the time and effort to adapt a project get paid, instead of getting pissy because certain aspects of the script changed to accomodate western audiences.

Ah thanks, makes sense.

That's why I don't get too upset when say 4Kids changes things in their dubs, like with GX having it so that Chumley and his father own a Hot Sauce factory instead of a Brewery. Considering one scene in that episode features a cat being given alcohol and then lapping it up, I can see why 4Kids didn't want to touch that one, MADD would've given them so much crap if a kid got the idea to give a cat alcohol after seeing that. Sounds farfetched yeah, but parents have gone after 4Kids before(Shaman King's dub in particular got a number of calls from angry parents even with how much they changed).

There was also one episode of Digimon Tamers that had to be radically altered as the monster's original form was a giant bomb, it got changed to a giant Orange flooding the park with Citrus Juice and the people in charge of the dubbing said basically that they had to change it as otherwise it never would've been allowed to air(This being after 9/11 and with certain reruns of episodes of earlier seasons already being edited to remove scenes of the kids destroying dark spires due to resembling 9/11 too closely)

[kemuri07]

Yes it is pathetic when another user tries to horn in on a discussion between two people for no reason other then to try and cause trouble.

Anyways thank you for the video, that was very interesting and informative.

To further get back on topic I agree that dubs shouldn't have to bend over backwards to appease fans of the original anime, I recall there was one movie that Funimation had given a somewhat humorous dub and after a screening(I think it was at AVX) with a raucous audiences Toei execs got angry and demanded a more faithful dub even after Funi execs tried to explain that just because the audience was making jokes does not mean their dub was being disrespectful to the original, but Toei wouldn't listen and as a result a lot of fans found the officially released dub to be a little too stiff.

Forgot what film that was, but it's a damn shame that a good piece of work got lost because Toei overreacted.


Yes I suspect that's why the Yakuza video games didn't do any more English dubs after the first game when localizing them for the west, because it simply costed too much money and after the first game didn't do so hot in sales over here they figured it wasn't worth the effort to pay for big-name actors like Rachel Leigh Cook, Mark Hammil, Eliza Dushku and Michael Madsen for any future sequels when they could just save money by just sticking with the original language with subtitles.

1. maybe drop the argument. Not worth it my guy.

2. Even within subtitles, it's not a 1-1 accurate translation because again: you need to make it make sense for an english listening/reading audience. So when I play Yakuza, while I won't say that I can understand everything, I do notice things that don't line up with what's being said.

Don't worry i'm over it, me and ABED worked it out through PMs.

What are some examples of not lining up with what's being said? Can't say i've ever noticed that myself.

Can't really state a specific scene, but Japanese is notorious for being context sensitive. So their will be moments where a character says something like にげろ！！！ but the actual sub will say something similar in tone, but not the exact word being used. A lot of anime do this.

[jjgp1112]

1. maybe drop the argument. Not worth it my guy.

2. Even within subtitles, it's not a 1-1 accurate translation because again: you need to make it make sense for an english listening/reading audience. So when I play Yakuza, while I won't say that I can understand everything, I do notice things that don't line up with what's being said.

Don't worry i'm over it, me and ABED worked it out through PMs.

What are some examples of not lining up with what's being said? Can't say i've ever noticed that myself.

Can't really state a specific scene, but Japanese is notorious for being context sensitive. So their will be moments where a character says something like にげろ！！！ but the actual sub will say something similar in tone, but not the exact word being used. A lot of anime do this.

Because of the nature of the language, A LOT of Japanese humor is pun-based. That's why when it comes to shows that are entirely comedy like Shin-chan, Funimation just says fuck it and completely rewrites it from the ground-up.

It actually adds a layer to King Kai when you directly translate his comedy into English. In Japan, his character is that he's an eccentric guy who likes to tell jokes despite being a respected God and martial arts master.

On the flipside, in Western culture puns are considered the lowest of low hanging fruit, so his pun-based humor in America turns him from simply a jokester God to a hacky, unfunny jokester God.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Some of the things people say about Super's dub, both here and elsewhere is a little exaggerated. This isn't nearly the kind of full on rewriting and inserting of terrible jokes and dialogue left, right and center that was done by script writers back in the days of Barry Watson and co running things on the production end. We're not getting god awful lines on the level of "Cat loves food" and "That's one whopper of a lizard anymore" and it really isn't to the level of how things were back in 1999 when the transition to in house really came.

I feel like some people will have issues with Funimation punching up dialogue no matter how unimportant the change is. But it's true that they never pulled anything on the level of the baffling story rewrites like they did with the Ocean and '99 dubs, and that's way more important to me. On top of that, the performances of Funi's cast is just on a whole other level from where they were back in 1999. Like, I never would have expected any of those guy to be great voice actors back when the switchover happened.

On the other hand, I still occasionally catch myself humming "Cat Loves food yeahyeahyeahyeah", thanks for whatever that's worth Funi.

Took the words right from my mouth. Like yeah I have my qualms with Super's dub, but for 90% of the time I think it's perfectly fine unless there's something I'm seriously missing, or if my standards are judged to be set too low. Still light-years ahead of their pre-Kai stuff.

[Aim]

People will put down dubs for not being the same experience as the original. Its an adaptation of it. Things change in adaptation, things are going to be diferent wether we like it or not.

I don't think it's like that. Anyway, we'll never know with Dragon Ball until a proper dub is done. Making changes that aren't needed are always really stupid. Most people can accept change if needed, no one is asking for everything to be 100% like the Japanese, because then it wouldn't make sense.

[Grimlock]

As a translator myself, I'd say that the changes needed are mostly cultural. Expressions, jokes, puns, specific words... These are the ones needed. You have to find a way to give the same experience as the original provides or give a similar one to ensure not only faithfulness to the source material, but for the audience to get the same feeling the original content wants the audience to have. You have to convey the same meaning or find a similar one.

Changing entire dialogues, even in important moments, is a great risk. How many times have we seen "that's a dub thing, in the Japanese/original..."? People may not notice/know, but that is actually a serious matter. And it goes without saying we should never have that problem.

I'll turn to Bardock TV Special as an example, since it's the only thing I also watched in English and honestly, I don't see any difference between that Bardock and Dragon Ball Online/Minus Bardock. Both are loving parents. English dub changed his personality entirely because the entire script is different than the original (kudos to Sonny Strait, though. His voice is good for the character!). Who knows what more big changes there are in the series itself... Well, certainly those of you who watched both in English and Japanese will be able to tell about this more accurately.

Meanings, messages, general dialogues, names, titles, intentions, feelings, understanding... All must remain as the original.

[Aim]

I can completely understand why Funimation have gone back to their old approach for Super.

Many of the purists who spent years rallying against the Z dub still refuse to watch the Kai dub, despite it being mostly very accurate and well acted. They literally refuse to watch anything other than the original Japanese version.

I mean, I haven't seen much of this, only from fans that think everything needs to be the same no matter what.

I speak out against the Kai dub because Funimation from what I've been told has no back bone. Using terrible outdated names from the old dub is so inappropriate, not to mention they still add in lines that are unnecessary.

I for one, do refuse to listen to anything other than the original Japanese version, because the dub has butchered it for me, and so have the stans. Making Son Goku sound like a stereotypical western tough guy for neurotic fanboys is extremely insulting.

This is why I totally emphasize with the OP for using the phrase "bending over backwards". It's like a kid in school being pushed around for being different, so they change to conform and fit in, only for the other kids to still reject them regardless.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. The difference between the kid at school being pushed around is that usually that kid hasn't done anything wrong. Being different isn't bad, they aren't hurting anyone and are getting on with themselves. The dub is bastardized a franchise that deserves better treatment. Dub stans are making excuses for the treatment DB has gotten. I've seen countless times dub fans constantly criticizing the Japanese, saying Goku sounds like an old lady, saying it doesn't fit the characters, and oh god I can never forget the countless times I've witnessed the "B-but Goku is a MAN, a muscular MAN! A MAN shouldn't be voiced by a WoMaN!".

Oh, and lets not forget the awful shit people said when the VA of Mr. Satan died.

Meanwhile there's the loyal dub fans who have always loved and supported the dub. Funimation treating those fans as the primary audience makes perfect sense at this point.

Lots of these fans have moved on, there is always a new generation that deserves a more accurate telling of the franchise, there really isn't an excuse, just because you like a parody of a franchise doesn't mean it should carry on into newer versions of the show, old fans will always have their old dub, if anything, it's them who have bullied everyone else to confirm with what they want.

It's mostly them who watch Super in English anyway, so they're the ones who should be catered to when it comes to script choices.

Do you know how many new fans Super has brought in? If things were done properly, we wouldn't have this problem. Old fans would have gotten used to it at this point, or they would have just gone back to watching their old dub, which is fine.

Why should the dub try to meet some impossible standard for the sake of people who won't watch it anyway?

How can you say anything about "impossible standards" when they literally were doing fine in the beginning of Kai? This impossible standard you speak of is none existent, believe it or not, but not everyone is blinded by nostalgia, especially new fans for obvious reasons.

I love both the Z dub and the Kai dub. It's interesting to have two very different takes of my favourite show.

Good, we are all DB fans here. We are in 2020, there shouldn't be any "different takes", I would have expected we would be at the point of adapting things faithfully by now

Capitalism is a bitch.

I'll turn to Bardock TV Special as an example, since it's the only thing I also watched in English and honestly, I don't see any difference between that Bardock and Dragon Ball Online/Minus Bardock. Both are loving parents. English dub changed his personality entirely because the entire script is different than the original (kudos to Sonny Strait, though. His voice is good for the character!). Who knows what more big changes there are in the series itself... Well, certainly those of you who watched both in English and Japanese will be able to tell about this more accurately.

Meanings, messages, general dialogues, names, titles, intentions, feelings, understanding... All must remain as the original.

Imagine how great it would be if, no matter what gender, if they hired someone who could do an English take on the Son family, and I mean a real one, not this "every character needs to sound deeply male" one we have right now.

Dub fans aren't put off by inaccuracies

Then they shouldn't be put off by accuracies.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I can completely understand why Funimation have gone back to their old approach for Super.

Many of the purists who spent years rallying against the Z dub still refuse to watch the Kai dub, despite it being mostly very accurate and well acted. They literally refuse to watch anything other than the original Japanese version.

I mean, I haven't seen much of this, only from fans that think everything needs to be the same no matter what.

I speak out against the Kai dub because Funimation from what I've been told has no back bone. Using terrible outdated names from the old dub is so inappropriate, not to mention they still add in lines that are unnecessary.

I for one, do refuse to listen to anything other than the original Japanese version, because the dub has butchered it for me, and so have the stans. Making Son Goku sound like a stereotypical western tough guy for neurotic fanboys is extremely insulting.

This is why I totally emphasize with the OP for using the phrase "bending over backwards". It's like a kid in school being pushed around for being different, so they change to conform and fit in, only for the other kids to still reject them regardless.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. The difference between the kid at school being pushed around is that usually that kid hasn't done anything wrong. Being different isn't bad, they aren't hurting anyone and are getting on with themselves. The dub is bastardized a franchise that deserves better treatment. Dub stans are making excuses for the treatment DB has gotten. I've seen countless times dub fans constantly criticizing the Japanese, saying Goku sounds like an old lady, saying it doesn't fit the characters, and oh god I can never forget the countless times I've witnessed the "B-but Goku is a MAN, a muscular MAN! A MAN shouldn't be voiced by a WoMaN!".

Oh, and lets not forget the awful shit people said when the VA of Mr. Satan died.

Meanwhile there's the loyal dub fans who have always loved and supported the dub. Funimation treating those fans as the primary audience makes perfect sense at this point.

Lots of these fans have moved on, there is always a new generation that deserves a more accurate telling of the franchise, there really isn't an excuse, just because you like a parody of a franchise doesn't mean it should carry on into newer versions of the show, old fans will always have their old dub, if anything, it's them who have bullied everyone else to confirm with what they want.

It's mostly them who watch Super in English anyway, so they're the ones who should be catered to when it comes to script choices.

Do you know how many new fans Super has brought in? If things were done properly, we wouldn't have this problem. Old fans would have gotten used to it at this point, or they would have just gone back to watching their old dub, which is fine.

Why should the dub try to meet some impossible standard for the sake of people who won't watch it anyway?

How can you say anything about "impossible standards" when they literally were doing fine in the beginning of Kai? This impossible standard you speak of is none existent, believe it or not, but not everyone is blinded by nostalgia, especially new fans for obvious reasons.

I love both the Z dub and the Kai dub. It's interesting to have two very different takes of my favourite show.

Good, we are all DB fans here. We are in 2020, there shouldn't be any "different takes", I would have expected we would be at the point of adapting things faithfully by now

Capitalism is a bitch.

I'll turn to Bardock TV Special as an example, since it's the only thing I also watched in English and honestly, I don't see any difference between that Bardock and Dragon Ball Online/Minus Bardock. Both are loving parents. English dub changed his personality entirely because the entire script is different than the original (kudos to Sonny Strait, though. His voice is good for the character!). Who knows what more big changes there are in the series itself... Well, certainly those of you who watched both in English and Japanese will be able to tell about this more accurately.

Meanings, messages, general dialogues, names, titles, intentions, feelings, understanding... All must remain as the original.

Imagine how great it would be if, no matter what gender, if they hired someone who could do an English take on the Son family, and I mean a real one, not this "every character needs to sound deeply male" one we have right now.

Again. I love this post. And this thread was more aimed at those that criticized the Latin American dub. I hate what Funimation did to Dragon Ball and you are entirely justified in feeling the way you do.

[90sDBZ]

I can completely understand why Funimation have gone back to their old approach for Super.

Many of the purists who spent years rallying against the Z dub still refuse to watch the Kai dub, despite it being mostly very accurate and well acted. They literally refuse to watch anything other than the original Japanese version.

I mean, I haven't seen much of this, only from fans that think everything needs to be the same no matter what.

I speak out against the Kai dub because Funimation from what I've been told has no back bone. Using terrible outdated names from the old dub is so inappropriate, not to mention they still add in lines that are unnecessary.

I for one, do refuse to listen to anything other than the original Japanese version, because the dub has butchered it for me, and so have the stans. Making Son Goku sound like a stereotypical western tough guy for neurotic fanboys is extremely insulting.

This is why I totally emphasize with the OP for using the phrase "bending over backwards". It's like a kid in school being pushed around for being different, so they change to conform and fit in, only for the other kids to still reject them regardless.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. The difference between the kid at school being pushed around is that usually that kid hasn't done anything wrong. Being different isn't bad, they aren't hurting anyone and are getting on with themselves. The dub is bastardized a franchise that deserves better treatment. Dub stans are making excuses for the treatment DB has gotten. I've seen countless times dub fans constantly criticizing the Japanese, saying Goku sounds like an old lady, saying it doesn't fit the characters, and oh god I can never forget the countless times I've witnessed the "B-but Goku is a MAN, a muscular MAN! A MAN shouldn't be voiced by a WoMaN!".

Oh, and lets not forget the awful shit people said when the VA of Mr. Satan died.

Meanwhile there's the loyal dub fans who have always loved and supported the dub. Funimation treating those fans as the primary audience makes perfect sense at this point.

Lots of these fans have moved on, there is always a new generation that deserves a more accurate telling of the franchise, there really isn't an excuse, just because you like a parody of a franchise doesn't mean it should carry on into newer versions of the show, old fans will always have their old dub, if anything, it's them who have bullied everyone else to confirm with what they want.

It's mostly them who watch Super in English anyway, so they're the ones who should be catered to when it comes to script choices.

Do you know how many new fans Super has brought in? If things were done properly, we wouldn't have this problem. Old fans would have gotten used to it at this point, or they would have just gone back to watching their old dub, which is fine.

Why should the dub try to meet some impossible standard for the sake of people who won't watch it anyway?

How can you say anything about "impossible standards" when they literally were doing fine in the beginning of Kai? This impossible standard you speak of is none existent, believe it or not, but not everyone is blinded by nostalgia, especially new fans for obvious reasons.

I love both the Z dub and the Kai dub. It's interesting to have two very different takes of my favourite show.

Good, we are all DB fans here. We are in 2020, there shouldn't be any "different takes", I would have expected we would be at the point of adapting things faithfully by now

Capitalism is a bitch.

I've seen many fans of the Japanese version say they refuse to watch even Kai in English, despite it being a sincere attempt at giving them what they said they wanted for years. I just don't understand the logic of fans who complained about the Z dub for years, only to say they still won't watch Kai simply because it's not the original Japanese. If that's the case then why bother rallying for those "improvements" in the first place?

And how are dub fans neurotic? Labelling a portion of the fanbase for their tastes isn't going to do your argument any favours. There are assholes on both sides without a doubt, but you can't paint all dub fans with the same brush.

I used the phrase "impossible standard" because I was referring to those fans of the original who still won't watch Kai in English. They'll never be satisfied with anything that isn't the Japanese version. That dub was extremely accurate for the most part, and the performances were great. Just because it holds on to a few names from the old dub it somehow makes the entire thing unwatchable? If that's the case the dub might as well go in its own direction.

What does any of this have to do with Capitalism? You condemn Capitalism while posting with a device that you wouldn't have access to without it.

[VegettoEX]

You condemn Capitalism while posting with a device that you wouldn't have access to without it.

More than anything, just want to say this is a total bullshit cop-out dismissal. We as common, everyday fans do the best we can with what we're given. You're not going to have a discussion about Dragon Ball with a hermit living out in the middle of nowhere devoid of any technology, so miss me (all of us) with this one, please. (On the other hand, we're absolutely free to criticize the establishments that create these environments.)

Anyway, about the "well they don't even want to watch the accurate dubs!!!" thing:

No. I don't. I have no reason to.

I have no attachment to this voice cast. (I was watching the show before they existed. I was running this website before they existed.)

The product(s) in question themselves (e.g., Kai) is not something I want to watch even in Japanese, so it's not like I'm going to watch some other version of it.*

I'm interested in things as they were originally produced.

The people who actually made the original things with their own hands are the ones I'm curious about. They are the ones who have the stories to tell about how it got made. They are the ones whose opinions, lives, and work history shaped the product.

None of that is a condemnation of the English dub; it's just not even a factor to begin with. It's a curiosity at best, and a source of documentation/informational-frustration at worst otherwise.

If other people want to / insist on watching it, that's great. For them, my hope is that it could (and should) live up as faithfully to the original version so we can all experience something as close to the same vision as each other. (Here is where you insert a totally separate discussion about approaches to localization, the history of anime dubbing, and a million other things outside the scope of what's actually being asked here. One of these discussion is: "If they want to rewrite an extremely basic mainstream show, they should instead just go make their own show in the first place.")

(*Side note: many of us DID give it the old college try. I even reviewed it right here on the website, both in written and podcast form. To all of my earlier points, though, it's not like I was ever going to suddenly switch and exclusively watch in English. It was a curiosity.)

[kemuri07]

I can completely understand why Funimation have gone back to their old approach for Super.

Many of the purists who spent years rallying against the Z dub still refuse to watch the Kai dub, despite it being mostly very accurate and well acted. They literally refuse to watch anything other than the original Japanese version.

I mean, I haven't seen much of this, only from fans that think everything needs to be the same no matter what.

I speak out against the Kai dub because Funimation from what I've been told has no back bone. Using terrible outdated names from the old dub is so inappropriate, not to mention they still add in lines that are unnecessary.

I for one, do refuse to listen to anything other than the original Japanese version, because the dub has butchered it for me, and so have the stans. Making Son Goku sound like a stereotypical western tough guy for neurotic fanboys is extremely insulting.

This is why I totally emphasize with the OP for using the phrase "bending over backwards". It's like a kid in school being pushed around for being different, so they change to conform and fit in, only for the other kids to still reject them regardless.

There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something. The difference between the kid at school being pushed around is that usually that kid hasn't done anything wrong. Being different isn't bad, they aren't hurting anyone and are getting on with themselves. The dub is bastardized a franchise that deserves better treatment. Dub stans are making excuses for the treatment DB has gotten. I've seen countless times dub fans constantly criticizing the Japanese, saying Goku sounds like an old lady, saying it doesn't fit the characters, and oh god I can never forget the countless times I've witnessed the "B-but Goku is a MAN, a muscular MAN! A MAN shouldn't be voiced by a WoMaN!".

Oh, and lets not forget the awful shit people said when the VA of Mr. Satan died.

Meanwhile there's the loyal dub fans who have always loved and supported the dub. Funimation treating those fans as the primary audience makes perfect sense at this point.

Lots of these fans have moved on, there is always a new generation that deserves a more accurate telling of the franchise, there really isn't an excuse, just because you like a parody of a franchise doesn't mean it should carry on into newer versions of the show, old fans will always have their old dub, if anything, it's them who have bullied everyone else to confirm with what they want.

It's mostly them who watch Super in English anyway, so they're the ones who should be catered to when it comes to script choices.

Do you know how many new fans Super has brought in? If things were done properly, we wouldn't have this problem. Old fans would have gotten used to it at this point, or they would have just gone back to watching their old dub, which is fine.

Why should the dub try to meet some impossible standard for the sake of people who won't watch it anyway?

How can you say anything about "impossible standards" when they literally were doing fine in the beginning of Kai? This impossible standard you speak of is none existent, believe it or not, but not everyone is blinded by nostalgia, especially new fans for obvious reasons.

I love both the Z dub and the Kai dub. It's interesting to have two very different takes of my favourite show.

Good, we are all DB fans here. We are in 2020, there shouldn't be any "different takes", I would have expected we would be at the point of adapting things faithfully by now

Capitalism is a bitch.

What does any of this have to do with Capitalism? You condemn Capitalism while posting with a device that you wouldn't have access to without it.

hahahah....oh boy. That's a good one. Nice bit of logic there, chap.