Dubs shouldnt bend over backwards to please purists. Subs shouldnt plase Casuals

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I think what upsets DB fans the most isn't the changes made to Super's dub, but rather it being one of the only dubs they changed. As far as I know, Funimation's other dubs are as accurate as a translation can be, yet thanks to the "MA CHALDHOOOOOD" fans from the early 2000s, Super is being deliberately denied an accurate dub like Funi's other shows.

Even then, i don't really see this as anywhere close to a full on return to how FUNi was doing things back in the old days when Barry Watson and co were still making localization decisions for dubs as some people make it out to be. I'm not denying that they've perhaps pandered to the Z dub/Toonami age fans in terms of making references and such with the scripts in Super a bit more than necessary at times.

As such, it doesn't mean they have jumped back to the old "replace the music, change dialogue entirely.etc" mindset that was prevalent in 1999/2000 when the Z dub was initially being made. FUNi really isn't that kind of company anymore for the most part.

[Matches Malone]

I don't really see this as anywhere close to a full on return to how FUNi was doing things back in the old days when Barry Watson and co were still making localization decisions for dubs as some people make it out to be.

It never got that bad, or even "bad", it's just annoying seeing their other shows and even a part of DB (Kai) get truly accurate dubs while Super didn't. It doesn't help that they said they weren't being accurate on purpose, rather than it being something out of their hands.

[Planetnamek]

I agree.

I can completely understand why Funimation have gone back to their old approach for Super.

Many of the purists who spent years rallying against the Z dub still refuse to watch the Kai dub, despite it being mostly very accurate and well acted. They literally refuse to watch anything other than the original Japanese version.

This is why I totally emphasize with the OP for using the phrase "bending over backwards". It's like a kid in school being pushed around for being different, so they change to conform and fit in, only for the other kids to still reject them regardless.

Meanwhile there's the loyal dub fans who have always loved and supported the dub. Funimation treating those fans as the primary audience makes perfect sense at this point. It's mostly them who watch Super in English anyway, so they're the ones who should be catered to when it comes to script choices. Why should the dub try to meet some impossible standard for the sake of people who won't watch it anyway?

I love both the Z dub and the Kai dub. It's interesting to have two very different takes of my favourite show.

Kai also had random jokes added in to try and appeal to dub fans as well though(I.E. the totally random reference to DBZA where Nappa goes "I hate the media!") so it's not like Super's approach was that drastically different. My issue with Kai is that it couldn't make up it's mind about which camp it wanted to appeal to-the die hard dubs fans or the sub fans and for the most part it didn't end up pleasing either camp that well, hence why the DVDs and Blu-Rays didn't sell as well as expected.

So I definitely prefer Super's dub for this reason as at least it knew exactly which camp it wanted to appeal to and stuck with it instead of doing some awkward mish-mash of both where you've got characters acting more true to the original versions yet still using dub attack names. Though as others on here have said, the changes to Super were somewhat overblown as it's not like they changed the music or brought back some of the old VAs that were replaced for Kai.

Reality is most fans that wanted an accurate version of Super were fine just watching it subbed so a 100%(or close as you can get to it) faithful dub was never going to draw those people in anyways.

[ABED]

Kai also had random jokes added in to try and appeal to dub fans as well though(I.E. the totally random reference to DBZA where Nappa goes "I hate the media!") so it's not like Super's approach was that drastically different. My issue with Kai is that it couldn't make up it's mind about which camp it wanted to appeal to-the die hard dubs fans or the sub fans and for the most part it didn't end up pleasing either camp that well, hence why the DVDs and Blu-Rays didn't sell as well as expected.

This is INCREDIBLY reductive. You don't have ANY clue why they didn't sell well. It's far more likely that they didn't sell well because physical media isn't as popular and Kai is just another version of Dragon Ball Z.

And Kai isn't nearly as ambivalent as you claim. There are some bad hold overs but by and large, it's an accurate dub.

[Planetnamek]

Kai also had random jokes added in to try and appeal to dub fans as well though(I.E. the totally random reference to DBZA where Nappa goes "I hate the media!") so it's not like Super's approach was that drastically different. My issue with Kai is that it couldn't make up it's mind about which camp it wanted to appeal to-the die hard dubs fans or the sub fans and for the most part it didn't end up pleasing either camp that well, hence why the DVDs and Blu-Rays didn't sell as well as expected.

This is INCREDIBLY reductive. You don't have ANY clue why they didn't sell well. It's far more likely that they didn't sell well because physical media isn't as popular and Kai is just another version of Dragon Ball Z.

And Kai isn't nearly as ambivalent as you claim. There are some bad hold overs but by and large, it's an accurate dub.

But the Orange Bricks were still selling like hotcakes even back when Kai first came out on DVD, so it does not seem all the reductive to me, it seems like a perfectly logical theory, besides it's not like physical media sales were down that drastically in the early 10s as that was before there were a dozen different streaming services with hundreds of shows on them so there was still a need for them, so by all rights Kai should've done very well on home video, but the fact that it didn't leads me to believe the culprit was not knowing which audience to appeal to. The complaining about Super's inaccuracy sounds largely the same to me as the complaints about Kai's inaccuracy.

[ABED]

Kai also had random jokes added in to try and appeal to dub fans as well though(I.E. the totally random reference to DBZA where Nappa goes "I hate the media!") so it's not like Super's approach was that drastically different. My issue with Kai is that it couldn't make up it's mind about which camp it wanted to appeal to-the die hard dubs fans or the sub fans and for the most part it didn't end up pleasing either camp that well, hence why the DVDs and Blu-Rays didn't sell as well as expected.

This is INCREDIBLY reductive. You don't have ANY clue why they didn't sell well. It's far more likely that they didn't sell well because physical media isn't as popular and Kai is just another version of Dragon Ball Z.

And Kai isn't nearly as ambivalent as you claim. There are some bad hold overs but by and large, it's an accurate dub.

But the Orange Bricks were still selling like hotcakes even back when Kai first came out on DVD, so it does not seem all the reductive to me, it seems like a perfectly logical theory, besides it's not like physical media sales were down that drastically in the early 10s as that was before there were a dozen different streaming services with hundreds of shows on them so there was still a need for them, so by all rights Kai should've done very well on home video, but the fact that it didn't leads me to believe the culprit was not knowing which audience to appeal to. The complaining about Super's inaccuracy sounds largely the same to me as the complaints about Kai's inaccuracy.

First, the orange bricks were of the series that everyone loved. Second, the home video market hadn't hit rock bottom then. Third, the episode count made it a better deal. Yes, physical media sales were down pretty significantly in the early 10s. The peak for DVD's was 2005. Kai was the latest in the line of DBZ releases. It was bound to do only okay. It seems you had your opinion and deduced the reasons from there.

Dub fans aren't put off by inaccuracies and hardcore fans of the original in the US aren't a big enough market to make much of a difference even if they were put off by the dub-isms.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/the-dea ... years.html

[Planetnamek]

This is INCREDIBLY reductive. You don't have ANY clue why they didn't sell well. It's far more likely that they didn't sell well because physical media isn't as popular and Kai is just another version of Dragon Ball Z.

And Kai isn't nearly as ambivalent as you claim. There are some bad hold overs but by and large, it's an accurate dub.

But the Orange Bricks were still selling like hotcakes even back when Kai first came out on DVD, so it does not seem all the reductive to me, it seems like a perfectly logical theory, besides it's not like physical media sales were down that drastically in the early 10s as that was before there were a dozen different streaming services with hundreds of shows on them so there was still a need for them, so by all rights Kai should've done very well on home video, but the fact that it didn't leads me to believe the culprit was not knowing which audience to appeal to. The complaining about Super's inaccuracy sounds largely the same to me as the complaints about Kai's inaccuracy.

First, the orange bricks were of the series that everyone loved. Second, the home video market hadn't hit rock bottom then. Third, the episode count made it a better deal. Yes, physical media sales were down pretty significantly in the early 10s. The peak for DVD's was 2005. Kai was the latest in the line of DBZ releases. It was bound to do only okay. It seems you had your opinion and deduced the reasons from there.

Dub fans aren't put off by inaccuracies and hardcore fans of the original in the US aren't a big enough market to make much of a difference even if they were put off by the dub-isms.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/08/the-dea ... years.html

I still think it was at least one of the factors as to why it didn't sell as well as expected.

[ABED]

People don't give nearly as much of a crap about how accurate a dub is as you think.

I give you a well reasoned argument complete with evidence that the home video market had tanked and you still hold on to your belief?

[Planetnamek]

People don't give nearly as much of a crap about how accurate a dub is as you think.

I give you a well reasoned argument complete with evidence that the home video market had tanked and you still hold on to your belief?

But as you mentioned the Orange Bricks were still selling, just cause the market took a downtown did not automatically mean EVERY DVD boxset released during that time sold poorly, so if you ask me it seems a bit short-sighted and narrow-minded to simply use "the market took a downtown" as the ONLY reason the Kai sets didn't sell that well, not sure why you are so focused on insisting that "the market" is the sole reason why those sets didn't sell well. You have no way of proving for an absolute stone cold fact that there weren't other reasons why those sets didn't sell that well.

This reminds me of when WB immediately stopped making 2-D animated films after Quest for Camelot bombed, they immediately jumped to the conclusion that 2-D animation was dead and so they stopped making films in that format(which unfortunately led to other studios like Dreamworks and Disney following in their footsteps), WB never stopped to consider that the real reason that movie flopped was because it just plain sucked, not because it was a 2-D animated film.

Sorry but you can only blame "the market" so much before it starts to sound like a convenient catch-all excuse for anytime a DVD sells poorly.

I agree most don't care about an accurate dub, hence why owning Kai on DVD wasn't that attractive of a prospect for many people, you just inadvertently proved my point even more. Plus that wasn't the only reason, Kai's removal of a ton of stuff including filler arcs that people really liked and also cutting out a bunch of character development also turned a good number of people off.

You seem to think i'm ignoring the market taking a downturn, i'm not, i'm sure that played a role but it wasn't the only reason they didn't sell well.

[ABED]

I clearly didn't say that was the only reason the sets didn't sell all that well. Do we even know how they sold?

not sure why you are so focused on insisting that "the market" is the sole reason

That's a complete misreading of my argument. I literally started my first reply by numbering my reasons.

I agree most don't care about an accurate dub, hence why owning Kai on DVD wasn't that attractive of a prospect for many people, you just inadvertently proved my point even more.

Stop that right now. I didn't prove anything of your point. People don't care, hence why the dub not being able to pick a lane means nothing. How you twisted that into me inadvertently proving your point, I don't know. If anything, you just contradicted yourself. One second you're all "they made too many changes for the fans of the in house dub, and too many changes for purists", and the next you say "most don't care about an accurate dub". They don't care one way or the other.

The market for DBZ was already saturated with DBZ releases, another one wasn't an attractive buy especially one with a lower episode count at about the same price point as when the original sets were released.

With the exception of the episodes of Gohan training for the Saiyans, none of the character development was cut.

[Planetnamek]

I clearly didn't say that was the only reason the sets didn't sell all that well. Do we even know how they sold?

not sure why you are so focused on insisting that "the market" is the sole reason

That's a complete misreading of my argument. I literally started my first reply by numbering my reasons.

I agree most don't care about an accurate dub, hence why owning Kai on DVD wasn't that attractive of a prospect for many people, you just inadvertently proved my point even more.

Stop that right now. I didn't prove anything of your point. People don't care, hence why the dub not being able to pick a lane means nothing. How you twisted that into me inadvertently proving your point, I don't know. If anything, you just contradicted yourself. One second you're all "they made too many changes for the fans of the in house dub, and too many changes for purists", and the next you say "most don't care about an accurate dub". They don't care one way or the other.

The market for DBZ was already saturated with DBZ releases, another one wasn't an attractive buy especially one with a lower episode count at about the same price point as when the original sets were released.

With the exception of the episodes of Gohan training for the Saiyans, none of the character development was cut.

Stop doing what? Disagreeing with you? I don't think so, and you're the only person I see misreading arguments and contradicting yourself right now.

If people didn't care this forum wouldn't exist, you can't just say "people don't care because I say so", that's not how things work. Your post is highly reductive.

I didn't contradict myself at all, both of the things I said about Kai are true, it changed too much for both camps as i've stated multiple times on here already, it sounds like you deliberately misread my argument just to try and prove your own point(or your reading comprehension needs work), stop doing that.

[ABED]

No, stop doing the whole "You inadvertantly proved my point" BS. I'm growing tired of that and the strawman arguments.

Is the statement hyperbolic? Sure, but for the love of god, we're a small community and not enough to make much of a difference in the scheme of things, a point I've already made several posts back - hardcore purists aren't a significant market. You have to know that statement was hyperbolic. I didn't literally mean literally no one. I shouldn't have to explain that.

If people didn't care this forum wouldn't exist, you can't just say "people don't care because I say so"... Your post is highly reductive.

Stop knocking down strawman arguments! I love this community, but we're a niche within a niche. DB in the US didn't become successful appealing to people who know all the ins and outs of DB, it's Wuxia roots, or its Kung Fu movie influences. It was successful because regardless of what any company does with it, as long as it's on a channel kids watch at a time when they watch, it will find a significant audience.

it changed too much for both camps

I didn't contradict myself at all, both of the things I said about Kai are true, it changed too much for both camps as i've stated multiple times on here already, it sounds like you deliberately misread my argument just to try and prove your own point(or your reading comprehension needs work), stop doing that.

And yet apparently accuracy doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, the dub fans won't care. Yes, you did say multiple times that too much was changed for both camps, but you also said dub fans don't care how accurate the dub is. How do you square those two statements?

You are criticizing my reading comprehension and yet you say with a straight face that my ONLY argument is that the sole reason the Kai DVD's didn't sell well was because the market dropped out despite that clearly NOT being my only argument. If you are going to be this disingenuous, why would I take you seriously especially given you don't have a shred of evidence, and the facts contradict at least one of your points.

[Planetnamek]

No, stop doing the whole "You inadvertantly proved my point" BS. I'm growing tired of that and the strawman arguments.

Is the statement hyperbolic? Sure, but for the love of god, we're a small community and not enough to make much of a difference in the scheme of things, a point I've already made several posts back - hardcore purists aren't a significant market. You have to know that statement was hyperbolic. I didn't literally mean literally no one. I shouldn't have to explain that.

If people didn't care this forum wouldn't exist, you can't just say "people don't care because I say so"... Your post is highly reductive.

Stop knocking down strawman arguments! I love this community, but we're a niche within a niche. DB in the US didn't become successful appealing to people who know all the ins and outs of DB, it's Wuxia roots, or its Kung Fu movie influences. It was successful because regardless of what any company does with it, as long as it's on a channel kids watch at a time when they watch, it will find a significant audience.

it changed too much for both camps

I didn't contradict myself at all, both of the things I said about Kai are true, it changed too much for both camps as i've stated multiple times on here already, it sounds like you deliberately misread my argument just to try and prove your own point(or your reading comprehension needs work), stop doing that.

And yet apparently accuracy doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, the dub fans won't care. Yes, you did say multiple times that too much was changed for both camps, but you also said dub fans don't care how accurate the dub is. How do you square those two statements?

You are criticizing my reading comprehension and yet you say with a straight face that my ONLY argument is that the sole reason the Kai DVD's didn't sell well was because the market dropped out despite that clearly NOT being my only argument. If you are going to be this disingenuous, why would I take you seriously especially given you don't have a shred of evidence, and the facts contradict at least one of your points.

I'm growing of tired of you bullying other users on here, stop doing that. I watched you do it to Julie for no good reason and now you're trying to do it to me, well I won't have it.

You're the only one I see being disingenuous here, why on earth should I possibly take you seriously when you are this weirdly obsessed about an innocuous post I made about a potential reason why the show didn't sell well on DVD?

You don't have a shred of evidence either beyond "cause I said so" and that's just not going to cut it(and no those sales charts don't prove that Kai itself didn't sell well solely because of a downturn in physical media, as plenty of other DVD sets sold well during that time)

I can easily square them, dub fans not caring about the accuracy of the dub is precisely why they didn't turn out to buy Kai in drove-because they already had their Z dub which they were perfectly happy with, therefore they weren't going to buy DBZ again just for a more accurate version with new VAs replacing the old ones they grew up with and which cut out a lot of material people liked. Makes perfect sense to me.

You're the only one I see doing strawman arguments here.

[XanatosVanBadass]

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

[ABED]

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

This! It's hard to educate casual audiences on things like this. They don't get aspect ratios, all they get is "why isn't this image filling up my screen?"

And Kai was not some new series. It's just a shorter version of DBZ. Why buy fewer episodes of a show they already own at a higher price point?

[Planetnamek]

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

Yes you randomly jumping in is sooooo hilarious

Nobody was asking for you to chime in, that makes you sound like a child.

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

This! It's hard to educate casual audiences on things like this. They don't get aspect ratios, all they get is "why isn't this image filling up my screen?"

And Kai was not some new series. It's just a shorter version of DBZ. Why buy fewer episodes of a show they already own at a higher price point?

I pretty much said the same thing. Dub fans aren't going to want a shorter version of DBZ, especially not one with a different script and different VAs.

[XanatosVanBadass]

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

Yes being all arrogant and holier then thou is sooooo hilarious

Nobody was asking for you to chime in.

It’s a public discussion, kid. I’ll “chime in” as I please. And there’s nothing you can do about it. Maybe stay out of forums like this if you can’t do anything beyond crying bully when you’re losing the argument.

[Planetnamek]

If the children are done “no u!”ing...

Anyway, Kai didn’t do well for a multitude of reasons. One is frankly, most of the normie fans likely didn’t “get” Kai or what it was. Dragon Ball Z was the proven familiar thing, hence why the OBs outsold the Kai sets in as Abed said, in a market over saturated with DB content. Come to think of it, didn’t the Kai DVDs start coming out no long after the Dragon Boxes? And before that the orange bricks. And one thing they all had in common was they were each advertised as the “definitive” way to watch DBZ.

Yeah, anyone can see that by Kai, fans caught on.

Now back you your scheduled herp derp about “bullying”!

Yes being all arrogant and holier then thou is sooooo hilarious

Nobody was asking for you to chime in.

It’s a public discussion, kid. I’ll “chime in” as I please. And there’s nothing you can do about it. Maybe stay out of forums like this if you can’t do anything beyond crying bully when you’re losing the argument.

You're the only one I see "Crying" here, spare me the tiresome flame bait and trolling already. I'm going to call you out on your nonsense and there's nothing you can do about that "kid".

Let's be honest, the only reason you're even jumping in now is because you're still sore that you got in trouble because of that time you randomly insulted me out of nowhere all those months ago, so you're trying to get back at me now.

[ABED]

Sorry everyone.

Now could someone please explain to me what this means?

I still believe dubs should aim to give the viewer the same experience as a watcher to the original. But now I have come to realize taking this approach too far is wrong.

What constitutes taking the approach of giving the dub viewer the same experience as a Japanese viewer too far?

[XanatosVanBadass]

You're the only one I see "Crying" here, spare me the tiresome flame bait and trolling already. I'm going to call you out on your nonsense and there's nothing you can do about that "kid".

Naw, I’m good. You’re the child that cries bully at every opportunity. I’m surprised you didn’t accuse Abed and/or myself of being “Alt right” yet, as that’s your speed. You’re learning, boy. Well, you still use “no u” arguments, so there’s still wok to be done.