Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:11 am

KBABZ wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:49 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:08 pm It just blows my mind that both of the latter are somehow still around and going to this very day, especially considering One Piece and Pokemon are now 21 and 23 years old respectively in terms of the shows. They've got episode counts (exceeding or almost exceeding 1000 total in that span of time) the likes of which most animes never come even remotely close to. At the time they made their respective debuts in Japan it was Dragon Ball which had one of the highest numbers of episodes over the course of 11 years from 1986 to 1997 between the original series, DBZ and GT at 508 total.
I think Toriyama is ultimately more of an influence there when comparing Dragon Ball to One Piece. The fact of the matter is that Oda has not burnt out on One Piece nearly as fast as Toriyama did for Dragon Ball; if Toriyama hadn't done that then Dragon Ball would have certainly went on for a longer period of time.

Pokémon meanwhile has a lot of circumstance behind its success: outside of being well-made for being a video game adaptation with a writer who wanted some proper storylines, it's based on one of the biggest media properties of all time and writes in the footsteps of the games which still remain popular to this day. The success of the anime is directly tied to that of the games.
In terms of the Pokemon anime most definitely, and indeed that is very true but especially so when it was at by far it's most massive blitz of popularity here aka "Pokemania" from basically day one on our shores back in 1998 until sometime around 2001 or 2002. Now it's still done fairly well in regards to the franchise in general but more so in terms of the video games these days.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by precita » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:19 am

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:11 am
KBABZ wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:49 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:08 pm It just blows my mind that both of the latter are somehow still around and going to this very day, especially considering One Piece and Pokemon are now 21 and 23 years old respectively in terms of the shows. They've got episode counts (exceeding or almost exceeding 1000 total in that span of time) the likes of which most animes never come even remotely close to. At the time they made their respective debuts in Japan it was Dragon Ball which had one of the highest numbers of episodes over the course of 11 years from 1986 to 1997 between the original series, DBZ and GT at 508 total.
I think Toriyama is ultimately more of an influence there when comparing Dragon Ball to One Piece. The fact of the matter is that Oda has not burnt out on One Piece nearly as fast as Toriyama did for Dragon Ball; if Toriyama hadn't done that then Dragon Ball would have certainly went on for a longer period of time.

Pokémon meanwhile has a lot of circumstance behind its success: outside of being well-made for being a video game adaptation with a writer who wanted some proper storylines, it's based on one of the biggest media properties of all time and writes in the footsteps of the games which still remain popular to this day. The success of the anime is directly tied to that of the games.
In terms of the Pokemon anime most definitely, and indeed that is very true but especially so when it was at by far it's most massive blitz of popularity here aka "Pokemania" from basically day one on our shores back in 1998 until sometime around 2001 or 2002. Now it's still done fairly well in regards to the franchise in general but more so in terms of the video games these days.
For Pokemon there will always be an anime to advertise the games, but I'm kind of surprised they never moved on from Ash as the protagonist. Obviously they can't due to being connected to Pikachu, but one long 1000+ anime show about the same main character is something I never expected would happen back in 1998. The mere fact that the writers were able to get rid of both Misty/Brock alone was a surprise, especially when you realize Misty hasn't been a main character for almost 20 years and Brock for over a decade. I remember back in the day people thought the original trio wouldn't be split up again after Tracey, but they were able to get rid of both Misty/Brock fairly easily to advertise the games each gen with new female companions.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:23 pm

precita wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:19 am
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:11 am
KBABZ wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:49 pm
I think Toriyama is ultimately more of an influence there when comparing Dragon Ball to One Piece. The fact of the matter is that Oda has not burnt out on One Piece nearly as fast as Toriyama did for Dragon Ball; if Toriyama hadn't done that then Dragon Ball would have certainly went on for a longer period of time.

Pokémon meanwhile has a lot of circumstance behind its success: outside of being well-made for being a video game adaptation with a writer who wanted some proper storylines, it's based on one of the biggest media properties of all time and writes in the footsteps of the games which still remain popular to this day. The success of the anime is directly tied to that of the games.
In terms of the Pokemon anime most definitely, and indeed that is very true but especially so when it was at by far it's most massive blitz of popularity here aka "Pokemania" from basically day one on our shores back in 1998 until sometime around 2001 or 2002. Now it's still done fairly well in regards to the franchise in general but more so in terms of the video games these days.
For Pokemon there will always be an anime to advertise the games, but I'm kind of surprised they never moved on from Ash as the protagonist. Obviously they can't due to being connected to Pikachu, but one long 1000+ anime show about the same main character is something I never expected would happen back in 1998. The mere fact that the writers were able to get rid of both Misty/Brock alone was a surprise, especially when you realize Misty hasn't been a main character for almost 20 years and Brock for over a decade. I remember back in the day people thought the original trio wouldn't be split up again after Tracey, but they were able to get rid of both Misty/Brock fairly easily to advertise the games each gen with new female companions.
That's the thing which still surprises me the most about the show, and yes it's true Ash/Satoshi can't be written out at this point due to that detail and the fact they've had him established as main character for so long. If they were ever going to have moved on from him and transitioned over to a new protagonist via soft reboot or whatever the time to have done so would've been way back in the early 2000's after the Johto adventures were finished. Instead it has perpetually revolved around Ash/Satoshi since day one and the only thing that has really changed in the last 23 years and multitude of series aside from regions and Pokemon carried are the companions he travels with in each of them. Agreed about Misty/Kasumi and Brock/Takeshi but the latter's departure at the end of the original series was kind of diluted and effectively undercut by the fact that he almost immediately returned as shown in the Pokemon Weekly Broadcast Station/Pokemon Chronicles episode where he's back home in Pewter/Nibi City with his family for a spell leading up to setting off for the Hoenn region himself (Most amusing of all is his mother appears who 4Kids had written out as being dead back in episode 5 of the original series. How funny that they never even imagined at the time the producers over at OLM would introduce said character which they had killed off four years later. XD) but decided to bring him back as one of Ash's companions alongside May/Haruka and Max/Masato shortly into Advanced Generation and thus proceeded to stick around until the end of Diamond and Pearl/Sinnoh.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:48 pm

Pokemon the anime doesn’t need to exist though. The brand is old enough and has had enough presence that they could cancel the cartoon and it probably wouldn’t impact sales in the slightest. It really didn’t need to exist past “let’s advertise these new buggy games as well as give a sneak peak at the improved second generation”

And that goes for any of these seemingly immortal advertainment shows

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:48 pm Pokemon the anime doesn’t need to exist though. The brand is old enough and has had enough presence that they could cancel the cartoon and it probably wouldn’t impact sales in the slightest. It really didn’t need to exist past “let’s advertise these new buggy games as well as give a sneak peak at the improved second generation”

And that goes for any of these seemingly immortal advertainment shows
Yes, and considering that Pokemon Red and Green came out in Japan just over a full year before the series even premiered (I don't think the anime really started early development until sometime midway through the year or shortly after) and though it took some time to gradually catch on by late 1996 it was really starting to become a big thing and the series coming out in April 1997 just further added onto it leading to the massive wave of smash success that would follow the world over and especially here in the US. I agree that the show doesn't necessarily need to keep going, they could potentially announce it's ending at any time and there's still more than enough content going around for the brand to continue.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:24 pm

Not to mention the anime fell off a long time ago so it's not like it's particularly strong promotion.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:29 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:24 pm Not to mention the anime fell off a long time ago so it's not like it's particularly strong promotion.
True, as i only really watch the OG era (Kanto to Johto) now and so not really interested that much in the Advanced Generation onward stuff anymore. It doesn't really seem like it's as big of a promotional thing especially when compared to the former during the first few years of the franchise's reign.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:48 pm

the animation in sun and moon easily makes it much more worth watching compared to something like the johto episodes.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:01 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:48 pm the animation in sun and moon easily makes it much more worth watching compared to something like the johto episodes.
Funny how they had the same overall style more or less for twenty something years (slow gradual transition from cels to computer animation in 2001/2002 aside) and it wasn't until Sun and Moon started in 2016 that OLM actually revamped the look of the characters and everything else.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by precita » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:58 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:24 pm Not to mention the anime fell off a long time ago so it's not like it's particularly strong promotion.
The initial Pokemon fad cooled down in 2001-2002 which was during the mid-Johto era. Obviously Pokemon is never going to have that hugely popular fad status it had from 1997-2001 again, but it's still remained consistently popular all through the 2000's and the 2010 decade. The anime still regularly made the top 10 ratings each week only beaten out by Yokai Watch when it was in its prime a few years ago.

Besides that all the original fans are around 30 years old now, so they've mostly been replaced by a younger gen of fans that got into the anime around the mid-2000's or later. It's the same reason Misty is nowhere as popular in the Pokemon fandom as she used to be, simply because she hasn't been around for 20 years and there's 9 other female leads after her now. A lot of us original fans predicted this would happen around the time Hoenn started and May was introduced, and it's why the writers decided to make Misty's departure permanent.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:19 pm

precita wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:58 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:24 pm Not to mention the anime fell off a long time ago so it's not like it's particularly strong promotion.
The initial Pokemon fad cooled down in 2001-2002 which was during the mid-Johto era. Obviously Pokemon is never going to have that hugely popular fad status it had from 1997-2001 again, but it's still remained consistently popular all through the 2000's and the 2010 decade. The anime still regularly made the top 10 ratings each week only beaten out by Yokai Watch when it was in its prime a few years ago.

Besides that all the original fans are around 30 years old now, so they've mostly been replaced by a younger gen of fans that got into the anime around the mid-2000's or later. It's the same reason Misty is nowhere as popular in the Pokemon fandom as she used to be, simply because she hasn't been around for 20 years and there's 9 other female leads after her now. A lot of us original fans predicted this would happen around the time Hoenn started and May was introduced, and it's why the writers decided to make Misty's departure permanent.
That's true, and those fans such as me who were kids around the time when Pokemon was in that absolutely massive blitz phase in the late '90s/early 2000's were succeed by subsequent groups of new fans who came after Misty was already no longer traveling with Ash and Brock like during the early years. Sure the anime and franchise as a whole still has a good deal of popularity but not anything close to how it was back then.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:24 pm

Count me in on the "Only?" boat.

If you were ten years old when the run started, you'd be twenty by its end. That's more than long enough for any series to last, and being over fifty volumes when said and done becomes a major hurdle to new readers.

(DB is over that collectively with Super, but at least you can say the latter is an optional sequel.)

Things like Conan are mostly episodic, and One Piece is genuinely just too fucking long. Even Naruto at its massive 70 volumes (prior to the sequel) is too long. JoJo at least structures itself like different series.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:48 am

What? The Pokemon anime was instrumental to it's success in Gen 1. Was part of the anime boom during that period and pretty much is the main reason people outside of gamers knew what Pokemon was in the west. The anime, back then, was absolutely vital. Everyone of all ages was watching it, it's what made people buy the games in the first place in the west.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:36 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:48 am What? The Pokemon anime was instrumental to it's success in Gen 1. Was part of the anime boom during that period and pretty much is the main reason people outside of gamers knew what Pokemon was in the west. The anime, back then, was absolutely vital. Everyone of all ages was watching it, it's what made people buy the games in the first place in the west.


Nobody said it wasn’t?

We’re talking about the anime NOW not back in the late 90s where the cartoon and trading card game was primary and the gameboy games were secondary.


At this point the games really don’t need the cartoon to sell them and the cartoon is nowhere near the powerhouse it was back in 97-2001

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:38 am

I'm not surprised because the manner in which the series was handled by the anime staff really showed a lack of interest in operating in a very large box of ideas. Eventually they were going to collapse.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by VDenter » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:19 am

A decade is a pretty long time. Imagine Toriyama dedicating 10+ years to a single project like this. In that sense, it is no wonder why most works of this length have parts that are low points. Creator burnout will inevitably happen at some point.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:49 am

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:38 am I'm not surprised because the manner in which the series was handled by the anime staff really showed a lack of interest in operating in a very large box of ideas. Eventually they were going to collapse.
From what I've heard the head writer had bigger plans and ideas for the anime but was constantly stifled by upper management, hence why the opening Kanto season in particular has stronger story ideas and moments compared to after that point (he left mid-way through Johto).

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:03 am

KBABZ wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:49 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:38 am I'm not surprised because the manner in which the series was handled by the anime staff really showed a lack of interest in operating in a very large box of ideas. Eventually they were going to collapse.
From what I've heard the head writer had bigger plans and ideas for the anime but was constantly stifled by upper management, hence why the opening Kanto season in particular has stronger story ideas and moments compared to after that point (he left mid-way through Johto).
I was talking about DBGT! :p

But yeah, this applies to Pokemon's first series, too. It's a shame that actual creators kept being ignored in favor of publishing executives.
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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:10 am

KBABZ wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:49 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:38 am I'm not surprised because the manner in which the series was handled by the anime staff really showed a lack of interest in operating in a very large box of ideas. Eventually they were going to collapse.
From what I've heard the head writer had bigger plans and ideas for the anime but was constantly stifled by upper management, hence why the opening Kanto season in particular has stronger story ideas and moments compared to after that point (he left mid-way through Johto).
Apparently the upper suits at OLM constantly hamstrung the writers, and at times pushed stupid things such as their "brilliant" idea to replace Brock/Takeshi in the Orange Islands arc with Tracey Sketchit/Kenji a few episodes in. They did this according to Takeshi Shudo on his blog back in 2009 because the former was thought in that case to be too "Japanese looking" and people on our side of the world wouldn't like him. Thankfully those upper management people saw the error in their decision eventually realizing Brock was actually a popular character in the West and thus ultimately brought back full time near the end of that season.

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Re: Anyone surprised the original run of Dragon Ball/DBZ/GT only lasted about 10 years?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:54 am

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:03 am
KBABZ wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:49 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:38 am I'm not surprised because the manner in which the series was handled by the anime staff really showed a lack of interest in operating in a very large box of ideas. Eventually they were going to collapse.
From what I've heard the head writer had bigger plans and ideas for the anime but was constantly stifled by upper management, hence why the opening Kanto season in particular has stronger story ideas and moments compared to after that point (he left mid-way through Johto).
I was talking about DBGT! :p

But yeah, this applies to Pokemon's first series, too. It's a shame that actual creators kept being ignored in favor of publishing executives.
Oops! Well in regards to GT, I think having to spin up an entirely new show that requires 100% writing while concurrently producing and ending an existing anime was not the best decision, because it meant they started the next big arc kinda half-cocked. I mean, the Black Star arc lacks any sort of villain figure or force at all, and it's not interested in exploring character relationships to any degree like the Pilaf Arc did (since Goku and Bulma were new back then). Then when they tried to do that it was like a villain dogpile until they eventually got to Baby. They had a lot of ideas but, like Super, they didn't really have the prep time to think them through and flesh them out.

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