Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

[Jiren The Alpha]

Correctly ? if Goku in the original manga was written anywhere near as bad as he's written now, that manga would've crashed and burned really fast.

If that's true then why did Super not crash and burn?

[MasenkoHA]

Does Goku mature throughout the original story? How? Please provide examples.

He stops needing to pat crotches to determine sex for one.

There’s a lot more childish excitement and impatience as he waits for Roshi to train him in the 21st Budokai arc. Something that isn’t present (at least to that level) when trained by Karin or Popo or Kaio. But comes back in full force when being trained by Whis.


He becomes smart enough to pick up on Old Kaioshin likely being a dirty old man like Roshi and persuading him with a promise of getting to cop a feel on a woman. Something I don’t think Goku would be capable of at all in Super.

Overall he got much better on picking up at social cues than he was as a child.



Back to the Bulma’s Gero solution. In Dragon Ball even if his motivations were selfish (I want to fight the Cyborgs who are so powerful they decimate everyone in 3 years) he’s still able to explain and rationalize to Bulma like an adult. Goku in Super would have had a big stupid grin on his face bent his knees over pumped his fist in excitement and squee on how he can’t wait to see how strong the cyborgs are and fight them.

[PurestEvil]

Correctly ? if Goku in the original manga was written anywhere near as bad as he's written now, that manga would've crashed and burned really fast.

If that's true then why did Super not crash and burn?

Not agreeing with the other guy, but to be the devil's advocate, it's because DBS is based on an already firmly established franchise with one of the biggest fandoms of any anime, so it is doing well only DESPITE Goku's subpar characterization. The OG manga was an original story, so Toriyama could not afford to make the main character unlikable and, thus, fail to produce readership.

[MasenkoHA]

To also play Devil’s Advocate Goku’s personality in Super isn’t all that different from his successful clones like Luffy, Satoshi, and Naruto

I don’t think Goku’s personality is that off putting to Japanese third graders

[Matches Malone]

If that's true then why did Super not crash and burn?

Because it's living off the popularity of the original series. No new series just starting out could get away with a fraction of what modern DB's done wrong.

[Grimlock]

That's like asking if Goku got stronger, if you didn't notice him mature than honestly there's nothing anyone can say that will change your mind.

Then again, I've seen people saying Movie 14 base Goku can't defeat Freeza (misinterpreting Beerus' line). So there are those who also think he didn't get stronger. We have nowhere to run.

[Jiren The Alpha]

If that's true then why did Super not crash and burn?

Because it's living off the popularity of the original series. No new series just starting out could get away with a fraction of what modern DB's done wrong.

Then why couldn't GT live off the original series? Because Super did not turn aloud fans of, so that kinda tells me that Super did something right.

You should read Killing Bites if you thing a new series wouldn't get away with it

[Matches Malone]

Then why couldn't GT live off the original series?

Because franchise fatigue was starting to kick in long before GT was even a thing. GT would've fared better had they taken a few years off, as well as have Toriyama's name attached to it for marketing.

[Zephyr]

People naturally change over time. I wouldn't take a story to task for not explicitly reminding me of that fact. Time has passed? I'll accept them acting a bit different. Son Goku's depiction in the original run benefited from him evolving as a character of Toriyama's pen and aging as a human in-universe, along the same trajectory. Nozawa's performance as him evolved along the same trajectory. Just a nice bit of accidental consistency.

Super throws this out. Toriyama's pen and Nozawa's performance have progressed significantly. However, the Son Goku we see is not as far along in his evolution as this Toriyama and this Nozawa are present him are. This alone will naturally result in some heavy incongruity. Yet, we don't even get Son Goku via Toriyama's pen anymore. Not directly. And even during the original run that proved problematic. Only difference is that in the 90's, Koyama and the gang were too hung up on straightening Goku out more than would make sense, and now they're falling back on making him zanier than would make sense.

[jjgp1112]

He doesn't become more reckless. He's the same as he always was it's just the stakes increase and make it more obvious that he puts an unhealthy priority on battle.

There seems to be an equivocation with mature and serious. Nevermind not seems, that's what you mean. You know Goku is mature because he is Serious TM! Nevermind those scenes came off the heels of him letting Buu free because he indulged in a pissing contest with Vegeta. How is that maturity or progression of character?

I see no issue with that redrawn scene as he does get serious when he needs to like he does at the end right as he's about to go into battle against Freeza. It's like he has to be serious at all times in a battle for you to register it as him taking it serious.

He becomes more worldly but he doesn't mature that much. He doesn't have to pat girls to tell their gender but he's still fundamentally driven by the same things from beginning to end. That somehow you are all convinced this was is practically exclusive to Super is baffling.

That difference in Goku's characterisation doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you see it, no matter the point of view. Goku is older in Dragon Ball Super.

And? You assume that he'd be more prudent as he got older? His recklessness never resulted in anything that wasn't eventually made right again. Why change when there are no lasting consequences and he gets what he wants?

unless the progression of the plot requires he not be, in which case he's not

That's not a function of plotting that's a function of character. People are often inconsistent and hypocritical. Goku is very concrete bound. He'll let Vegeta go even though he knows it's wrong, but when he sees senseless death and destruction right in front of him then he will get upset.

unless the progression of the plot requires he not be, in which case he's not)

Not the same joke Grimlock. He didn't knowingly touch the alien's genitals. That's the joke, not that he still can't tell the difference. This isn't like Goku not having kissed Chichi.

he gradually matured as the story went on and as he got older

Give examples please. In what ways did he mature?

A lot of these misconceptions come down to cherry picking. "He was scared when he heard the Saiyans would arrive and were stronger than Raditz" and yet was excited to fight Vegeta then let him live to fight him again, "Goku yelled for Gohan to stop Cell" after giving Cell a senzu, "Goku lets Piccolo live to save Kami" after refusing any help so he could win the tournament even after all of his limbs have been injured.

People forget this is the same guy that was more absorbed in the tournament rules against Piccolo than the stakes of the fight.

The thing with Goku is that his recklessness comes from his self-confidence. It's not that he doesn't care about the potential consequences, it's just that he's sure he can handle them. This has been consistently true of his character since the 23rd TB. Why is his attitude different against Raditz? Because he is absolutely certain there's no way he can win, and oh yeah, his son got kidnapped.

I feel like Goku being more absent from the story for most of Z combined with Koyama Goku of the movies has given people a mistaken idea that he became this more serious guy in adulthood. But Goku spends most of his time during the Z portion incapacitated or punching guys, but the few times he's doing regular stuff...he's still a pretty silly guy who slaps Chi-Chi through walls and tries to convince Gohan to let an old man feel up his girlfriend.

In Super, he's far more active in the plot, and while I do think Toei has overcompensated in Goku's silliness particularly during the Black arc, it's not really much different from how he was for most of Z. Hell, during the Tournament of Power he's pretty much Koyama Goku all the way through.

[ABED]

People naturally change over time. I wouldn't take a story to task for not explicitly reminding me of that fact. Time has passed? I'll accept them acting a bit different. Son Goku's depiction in the original run benefited from him evolving as a character of Toriyama's pen and aging as a human in-universe, along the same trajectory. Nozawa's performance as him evolved along the same trajectory. Just a nice bit of accidental consistency.

Super throws this out. Toriyama's pen and Nozawa's performance have progressed significantly. However, the Son Goku we see is not as far along in his evolution as this Toriyama and this Nozawa are present him are. This alone will naturally result in some heavy incongruity. Yet, we don't even get Son Goku via Toriyama's pen anymore. Not directly. And even during the original run that proved problematic. Only difference is that in the 90's, Koyama and the gang were too hung up on straightening Goku out more than would make sense, and now they're falling back on making him zanier than would make sense.

People do change but not a whole lot very often and usually the change is either chemical like when we go from adolescence to adulthood our brain develops and people naturally gain greater impulse control. The other big reason is experience. You have enough bad things happen, it's not a guarentee but you will likely catch on to the consequences. What lasting consequences does Goku deal with?

Does Goku mature throughout the original story? How? Please provide examples.

He stops needing to pat crotches to determine sex for one.

There’s a lot more childish excitement and impatience as he waits for Roshi to train him in the 21st Budokai arc. Something that isn’t present (at least to that level) when trained by Karin or Popo or Kaio. But comes back in full force when being trained by Whis.


He becomes smart enough to pick up on Old Kaioshin likely being a dirty old man like Roshi and persuading him with a promise of getting to cop a feel on a woman. Something I don’t think Goku would be capable of at all in Super.

Overall he got much better on picking up at social cues than he was as a child.



Back to the Bulma’s Gero solution. In Dragon Ball even if his motivations were selfish (I want to fight the Cyborgs who are so powerful they decimate everyone in 3 years) he’s still able to explain and rationalize to Bulma like an adult. Goku in Super would have had a big stupid grin on his face bent his knees over pumped his fist in excitement and squee on how he can’t wait to see how strong the cyborgs are and fight them.

Well reasoned and articulated. I appreciate it and agree. He is more childlike, though I do like that he throws away the pretense of not wanting to pre-emptively stop an enemy for sane reasons. We know he didn't really believe those reasons. It often happens that the longer a story goes the more certain attributes get stressed for the sake of a joke. Joey on Friends got hungrier as the show went on. Food was a go to joke by the end moreso than his sex life. Kevin on The Office got dumber. There are plenty of other examples through pop culture. It's hardly the worst thing to be less subtle. That sort of stuff I give a pass.

Does Goku mature throughout the original story? How? Please provide examples.

That's like asking if Goku got stronger, if you didn't notice him mature than honestly there's nothing anyone can say that will change your mind.

This comment is so utterly disingenuous I don't know where to begin. I've stated before for example that I know Goku can tell if someone is male/female without patting their crotches. That wasn't the sort of thing I was asking about. Don't believe that your POV is so obvious that there isn't room for discussion.

It seems many here are convinced Goku had outgrown his battle loving tendencies and wouldn't actively put the universe/multiverse in danger for a good battle by some point in DBZ but there is ample evidence to show that's not the case. That is a fact that's way more obvious than him being able to pick up on social cues.

[Kataphrut]

Something I wonder if people have considered when talking about Super Goku is that he's the end result of the arc Goku went through towards the end of the original manga where he was unsatisfied with his role as protector of the Earth and trying to set up the next-generation fighters to take over that role. The unspoken reason being that he wanted to be able to focus on fighting purely for fun, which was more or less laid out at the very end when he took off with Uub.

That "arc" basically ended with him realising it wasn't worth it and having to step back into the action himself. Look at his actions during the Buu arc, from the way he handled Majin Vegeta to how he acted during the final battle, between crushing the potara and acting overconfident about his Super Saiyan 3 power being able to handle the job. Tell me that doesn't lead straight into how he is in Super. Plus, he also has the added benefit of a "safety net" in the form of Beerus, Whis, three sets of Dragon Balls and being friends with the most powerful god in the multiverse. Of course he's not going to take matters as seriously as he did, why would he? The story by design barely requires it.

[Zephyr]

People naturally change over time. I wouldn't take a story to task for not explicitly reminding me of that fact. Time has passed? I'll accept them acting a bit different. Son Goku's depiction in the original run benefited from him evolving as a character of Toriyama's pen and aging as a human in-universe, along the same trajectory. Nozawa's performance as him evolved along the same trajectory. Just a nice bit of accidental consistency.

Super throws this out. Toriyama's pen and Nozawa's performance have progressed significantly. However, the Son Goku we see is not as far along in his evolution as this Toriyama and this Nozawa are present him are. This alone will naturally result in some heavy incongruity. Yet, we don't even get Son Goku via Toriyama's pen anymore. Not directly. And even during the original run that proved problematic. Only difference is that in the 90's, Koyama and the gang were too hung up on straightening Goku out more than would make sense, and now they're falling back on making him zanier than would make sense.

People do change but not a whole lot very often and usually the change is either chemical like when we go from adolescence to adulthood our brain develops and people naturally gain greater impulse control. The other big reason is experience. You have enough bad things happen, it's not a guarentee but you will likely catch on to the consequences. What lasting consequences does Goku deal with?

Of the top of my head, here, I can't say that Goku really ever does suffer the consequences. I'd argue that repeatedly managing to avoid consequences would probably pretty naturally play a role in someone becoming more confident in themselves, and in becoming increasingly willing to make greater and greater gambles.

[The Undying]

I think the change from Z Goku to Super (anime) Goku is jarring, dub fan or not.

This eloquently hits the nail on the head for me.

I think if we're strictly comparing Goku's portrayal between manga serializations, the difference/change isn't that jarring or drastic. There might be the occasional panel or three that doesn't quite gel with our preconceptions of the character, but I feel like Goku is generally fine in the Super manga's interpretation of him. I don't doubt that's arguable for some readers, but I also don't doubt that whether it's arguable comes down to which exact degree they're willing to nitpick the tiniest (perceived) nuances. Without Toriyama writing and drawing the guy himself, the closest you can get is an approximation of Goku.

It's when we specifically compare TV Z to TV Super that things start to feel wonky as all hell. I'd say they're almost completely different characters under those formats, neither of which are true to Toriyama's conception, though it depends on the scene.

[super michael]

Here are the ways Goku regressed in DBS:

- DBS Goku = So what if you die King Kai, you are already dead. This is when recruiting C17.
- DBS Goku = Goku doesn't realize someone doing something to slow him down. Chiaotzu uses magic.
- DBS Goku = Goku the only one to not know Monaka is weak.
- DBS Goku = Goku the only one who doesn't know that Beerus was lying.
- DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.
- DBS Goku = Forgets senzu beans, urn and talisman, which lead to Future Trunks time line being erased, since Mafuba was useless.
- DBS Goku = Doesn't care that Vegeta was disappearing, he rather waste time asking question and holding back. He showed no emotion at all to Vegeta disappearing.
- DBS Goku = Enjoys dropping his guard too much even when he knows he is the target and can get attacked at any time. His guard is so down that he can't react at all.
- DBS Goku = Unable to keep secrets stated by Bulma.
- DBS Goku = Forces anyone to fight him, even if they have no desire or just plain don't want to fight such as Monaka, Zamasu, Gohan, etc.
- DBS Goku = doesn’t acknowledge any mistakes he does
- DBS Goku = When Jiren ask Goku what would he wish for, Goku says that he doesn't know even though he saw the other Universe erased.
- DBS Goku = Goku was annoying Whis and being impatient, even though Whis agreed to train him. Goku got so annoying that Whis considered not training him.
- DBS Goku = He doesn't take anything seriously, in the ToP recruitment everyone had to constantly remind him to take things seriously and that he is responsible.

- In DBZ Goku was scared that if dead Vegeta dies, he would no longer exist.
- In DB Goku knew there was cheating in his battle with Tien. He was aware someone was doing something to him.
- In DB Goku was the only one who knew who was stronger between Tien vs Tao Pai Pai.
- In DB Goku was the only one who knew Kami was lying.
- In DB Master Roshi had to disguise his scent to fool Goku nose and have Nam far away to fool Goku. But later on Goku knew Master Shen identity by his scent, when Master Shen tried to kill him while asleep.
- DB and DBZ Goku never forgets senzu beans.
- DB and DBZ Goku cares when he sees or hear friend, family and strangers die. Remember Cell killing on the radio.
- DB and DBZ knows what to wish for, which is to revive his friends.
- DBZ Goku was caught of guard by Jeice attack, but Goku was able to react.
- DB and DBZ Goku was able to keep Kami and Future Trunks secret.
- In DB and DBZ Goku was never a pest or annoying to get someone to train him. They normally agreed and when they agreed he was patient.

The majority of time Goku talks or does something, it is normally stupid things.

Then there is the whole showing Goku vs Caulifla and Krillin exaggerating their SS2 power, instead of showing Vegeta vs Toppo who are SSB level who are stronger. In the entire Dragon Ball no one recovers ki and stamina by fighting, that didn't happen in any saga of DB and DBZ.

[90sDBZ]

- DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.

This was one of the biggest ones for me. It was a funny scene, but like many other comedic scenes in Super it came at the expense of the character.

It just bugs me how Goku's friends constantly have to go to absurd lengths to stop him from doing something stupid. They looked up to him and respected him in DB/Z, but now they must constantly bend over backwards to keep him from screwing up.

It's like he's turned into Peter Griffin, and I expect him to say "Hey everybody! Guess what unbelievably stupid thing I did this week!".

[MasenkoHA]

- DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.

This was one of the biggest ones for me. It was a funny scene, but like many other comedic scenes in Super it came at the expense of the character.

It just bugs me how Goku's friends constantly have to go to absurd lengths to stop him from doing something stupid. They looked up to him and respected him in DB/Z, but now they must constantly bend over backwards to keep him from screwing up.

It's like he's turned into Peter Griffin, and I expect him to say "Hey everybody! Guess what unbelievably stupid thing I did this week!".

A lot of Super’s humor just feels a bit forced especially in regards to Goku’s stupidity. Like him forgetting the jar for the mafuba.


Part of what made Dragon Ball’s humor work as it got more serious was the absurdism being played straight This pink demon is turning people into candy but we’re still going to treat it like its serious. If the Boo saga happened in Super there would be a gag where Goku tries to eat his friends after Boo turns them into chocolate.

[jjgp1112]

Just to be clear, we're all talking about the same Goku who immediately fucked up the details of Trunks' story and needed Piccolo to cover for him, right? The same Goku that told Bulma to have a healthy baby? The same Goku that casually gave away both Trunks' name and Vegeta being his father 3 years later?

[super michael]

Just to be clear, we're all talking about the same Goku who immediately fucked up the details of Trunks' story and needed Piccolo to cover for him, right? The same Goku that told Bulma to have a healthy baby? The same Goku that casually gave away both Trunks' name and Vegeta being his father 3 years later?

How does Goku wishing Bulma to have a healthy baby reveal that the person is from the future, let alone that person being Bulma son?
You are correct about Goku forgetting the details from Future Trunks and had it not being for Piccolo, then they would have missed the Androids. However this doesn't contradict anything, since Goku has never shown to memories a lot of details.
The purpose of keeping Trunks identity a secret is so Trunks continues to get born, once Trunks is born then keeping Trunks secret isn't important anymore.

Goku has never forgotten senzu, however this happened in DBS which is a contradiction. Goku has never forgotten to bring items to battle, which is something that happened in DBS.

Goku never kissing in the mouth in DBS is not a contradiction, since we are never shown in the entire Dragon Ball that Goku has ever kissed in the mouth before.

[ABED]

Here are the ways Goku regressed in DBS:

- DBS Goku = So what if you die King Kai, you are already dead. This is when recruiting C17.
- DBS Goku = Goku doesn't realize someone doing something to slow him down. Chiaotzu uses magic.
- DBS Goku = Goku the only one to not know Monaka is weak.
- DBS Goku = Goku the only one who doesn't know that Beerus was lying.
- DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.
- DBS Goku = Forgets senzu beans, urn and talisman, which lead to Future Trunks time line being erased, since Mafuba was useless.
- DBS Goku = Doesn't care that Vegeta was disappearing, he rather waste time asking question and holding back. He showed no emotion at all to Vegeta disappearing.
- DBS Goku = Enjoys dropping his guard too much even when he knows he is the target and can get attacked at any time. His guard is so down that he can't react at all.
- DBS Goku = Unable to keep secrets stated by Bulma.
- DBS Goku = Forces anyone to fight him, even if they have no desire or just plain don't want to fight such as Monaka, Zamasu, Gohan, etc.
- DBS Goku = doesn’t acknowledge any mistakes he does
- DBS Goku = When Jiren ask Goku what would he wish for, Goku says that he doesn't know even though he saw the other Universe erased.
- DBS Goku = Goku was annoying Whis and being impatient, even though Whis agreed to train him. Goku got so annoying that Whis considered not training him.
- DBS Goku = He doesn't take anything seriously, in the ToP recruitment everyone had to constantly remind him to take things seriously and that he is responsible.

- In DBZ Goku was scared that if dead Vegeta dies, he would no longer exist.
- In DB Goku knew there was cheating in his battle with Tien. He was aware someone was doing something to him.
- In DB Goku was the only one who knew who was stronger between Tien vs Tao Pai Pai.
- In DB Goku was the only one who knew Kami was lying.
- In DB Master Roshi had to disguise his scent to fool Goku nose and have Nam far away to fool Goku. But later on Goku knew Master Shen identity by his scent, when Master Shen tried to kill him while asleep.
- DB and DBZ Goku never forgets senzu beans.
- DB and DBZ Goku cares when he sees or hear friend, family and strangers die. Remember Cell killing on the radio.
- DB and DBZ knows what to wish for, which is to revive his friends.
- DBZ Goku was caught of guard by Jeice attack, but Goku was able to react.
- DB and DBZ Goku was able to keep Kami and Future Trunks secret.
- In DB and DBZ Goku was never a pest or annoying to get someone to train him. They normally agreed and when they agreed he was patient.

The majority of time Goku talks or does something, it is normally stupid things.

Then there is the whole showing Goku vs Caulifla and Krillin exaggerating their SS2 power, instead of showing Vegeta vs Toppo who are SSB level who are stronger. In the entire Dragon Ball no one recovers ki and stamina by fighting, that didn't happen in any saga of DB and DBZ.

Need I say again that Goku threw Cell a senzu before he fought Gohan? But sure he's always serious

He regressed because one time he wasn't aware that a psychic was messing with him?

And if he wins the TOP there is no need to resurrect his friends. Winning means they survive

You finding his enthusiasm to train annoying is not a regression.