Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
super michael
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 am

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:40 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:25 pm
Need I say again that Goku threw Cell a senzu before he fought Gohan? But sure he's always serious

He regressed because one time he wasn't aware that a psychic was messing with him?

And if he wins the TOP there is no need to resurrect his friends. Winning means they survive

You finding his enthusiasm to train annoying is not a regression.
Your right about Goku giving Cell a senzu bean. Goku realized his mistake when Piccolo said Gohan feelings towards battle, which is why Goku was going to eat a senzu bean and help Gohan. When the Cell Jrs were beating everyone up, his admited his mistake.
When Goku realized his mistake, that is when he was serious.

Goku was aware that someone was messing with his body in the tournament as a kid, while Tien was unaware of Chiaotzu magic messing with Goku. In DBS Goku wasn't aware that the same person was messing with his body.

Whis agreed to train Goku once he finished eating, what Goku should have done is wait and not be a pest to Whis. Goku was never a pest to any of his masters. He wasn't a pest to Master Roshi, Korin, Mr Popo, Kami and King Kai. We can't say anything about Yardrat since that was off-screen, although in the manga they didn't say anything bad about Goku.

Edit I forgot to mention Goku made friends from Universe 6, surely Goku could have told Jiren that he would wish all the erased universe back.
Goku in the Cell Game when he was listening to the radio, he heard strangers dies which got Goku pissed of so much that he went to Kami Lookout to check if Piccolo can split to make the Dragon Balls to revive everyone, when that wasn't possible Goku even went to Namek for a new guardian.
In DBS Goku saw the other universe get erased and he didn't think to wish for them to return.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:58 pm

He didn't realize his mistake. Goku panicked momentarily but goes right back to being (over)confident in his son when he's proven right about his power. Also Goku goes right back to his old ways so he doesn't learn from this situation. If we don't count Goku turning SSJ3 as a retcon, he gets into a pissing contest with Vegeta but sure he takes the stakes all so seriously. You all with the he must be serious stuff. Why don't you all take into account the full context? Why must you all cherry pick these moments where he shows the slightest signs of self awareness and seriousness but seem to never recall the moments before and after where Goku does sketchy stuff for the sake of a fight? You might have a point if Goku actually used this moment of fear to change but he doesn't. He still engages in the same reckless behavior like during his fight against Kid Buu. Yes Vegeta crushed the potara but Goku could've use the spare pair from the Kaioshin but nope. He could've gotten Gohan to help once he was revived but nope.

And lastly Piccolo didn't know what Gohan was thinking. Gohan would never think that of his father.
Goku was aware that someone was messing with his body in the tournament as a kid, while Tien was unaware of Chiaotzu magic messing with Goku. In DBS Goku wasn't aware that the same person was messing with his body.
That's not a regression or contradiction. He wasn't aware one time and was the other.
He wasn't a pest to Master Roshi, Korin, Mr Popo, Kami and King Kai.
He was rude and he is kind of a pest when he asks for things from Kaio. Again, this is your personal taste. Not to mention he didn't have to pester them. They wanted to teach Goku.
Edit I forgot to mention Goku made friends from Universe 6, surely Goku could have told Jiren that he would wish all the erased universe back.
In DBS Goku saw the other universe get erased and he didn't think to wish for them to return.
They are being erased by a god
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
super michael
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 am

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:58 pm
He didn't realize his mistake. Goku panicked momentarily but goes right back to being (over)confident in his son when he's proven right about his power. Also Goku goes right back to his old ways so he doesn't learn from this situation. If we don't count Goku turning SSJ3 as a retcon, he gets into a pissing contest with Vegeta but sure he takes the stakes all so seriously. You all with the he must be serious stuff. Why don't you all take into account the full context? Why must you all cherry pick these moments where he shows the slightest signs of self awareness and seriousness but seem to never recall the moments before and after where Goku does sketchy stuff for the sake of a fight? You might have a point if Goku actually used this moment of fear to change but he doesn't. He still engages in the same reckless behavior like during his fight against Kid Buu. Yes Vegeta crushed the potara but Goku could've use the spare pair from the Kaioshin but nope. He could've gotten Gohan to help once he was revived but nope.

And lastly Piccolo didn't know what Gohan was thinking. Gohan would never think that of his father.
Goku listened to Piccolo and took Piccolo advise, that means he saw that he was in the wrong. However when Gohan turned SS2 then there was nothing to worry about, that is until Gohan got overconfident. Can you explain to me what you mean that he goes back to his old way?
I believe Goku always had SS3 in the Buu Saga. What do you mean Goku got into a pissing contest with Vegeta? If you mean not using SS3 then Goku said why he didn't risk using SS3 against Vegeta.
I agree with 100% percent on the Kid Buu fight, it was stupid to destroy the potara you won't see me defend that. But here the thing Goku acknowledge his mistake that with Potara they could have killed Kid Buu in 1 shot.
Vegeta idea of leaving it to the earth was stupid, since it was his battle with Goku that revived Buu in the first place. Actually Goku thought of sending both Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, it was Vegeta idea to use the Genki Dama. Goku wasn't use of the Genki Dama since it failed against Freeza, but Vegeta convinced Goku to take the full ki of everyone and not just a little ki.
That's not a regression or contradiction. He wasn't aware one time and was the other.
Goku was aware that someone was doing something to his body, which he told Tien that he was cheating. In DBS he didn't tell anyone that someone was doing something to him.
He was rude and he is kind of a pest when he asks for things from Kaio. Again, this is your personal taste.
I remember Goku being rude about his cooking, but never bugging Kaio to train him. If you mean when Goku wanted King Kai to find Namek, that is normal seeing that he had to find a guardian to make new Dragon Balls. Goku was pissed off that Cell killed people.
What was Goku rush in Whis eating? There was no danger and no one needed to get revived.
They are being erased by a god
The Dragon Balls on earth could revive those killed by demons, these Super Dragon Balls are more powerful than Earth and Namek Dragon Ball. The issue was Goku said he didn't know what he would wish for.

If hearing stranger die made Goku want to revive everyone, then seeing other universe erased should have made Goku try to return the erased universe back.

Edit I added more text when I saw your edit. I just realized that when a post get edited there is no message that indicates that.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:42 pm

I am pointing out that Goku doesn't learn. He doesn't grow more serious and the growing stakes don't fundamentally outweigh his love of battle. Goku may have shown concern that he was wrong to give Cell the senzu but that fear he shows is not indicitive of him learning something and being more serious. We see that in future fights when he puts his love of battle above the world/universe. Super did not regress him.
The Dragon Balls on earth could revive those killed by demons, these Super Dragon Balls are more powerful than Earth and Namek Dragon Ball. The issue was Goku said he didn't know what he would wish for.
and Zeno is basically all powerful. He erased universes from existence like it was nothing. Given that and the entire point of the tournament was to wittle them down to one, I don't think it's a big leap to think that wish wouldn't come to mind.
But here the thing Goku acknowledge his mistake that with Potara they could have killed Kid Buu in 1 shot.
He acknowledges it then does NOTHING to rectify the error. He embraces his warrior pride during the fight.
Vegeta idea of leaving it to the earth was stupid, since it was his battle with Goku that revived Buu in the first place. Actually Goku thought of sending both Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, it was Vegeta idea to use the Genki Dama. Goku wasn't use of the Genki Dama since it failed against Freeza, but Vegeta convinced Goku to take the full ki of everyone and not just a little ki.
And? This is cherry picking! So what if he thought of it? What good does that do your argument when he doesn't actually go through with the more prudent solution?

Goku is more childlike in Super, but he is as reckless as he always was. Don't forget, this is the same guy who wouldn't allow any help against Piccolo so he wouldn't get disqualified from the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's a fight for the fate of the world and he gives Piccolo a free shot to make up for the one Kami blocked.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 3106
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:45 pm

super michael wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:04 pm

Goku never kissing in the mouth in DBS is not a contradiction, since we are never shown in the entire Dragon Ball that Goku has ever kissed in the mouth before.
Not a straight up contradiction but it seems somehow unlikely Chi Chi could convince Goku to have intercourse with her at least twice and never once in their 20+ years of marriage have they kissed on the mouth. Obviously Goku isn’t a total stranger to physical intimacy. It’s not impossible he never kissed Chi Chi just seems unlikely and only brings up questions of Goku’s ability to consent.

Also the fact that they seemed to have had a Christian inspired wedding at the end of Dragon Ball also just raises doubt that they never kissed on the mouth. Like even on their wedding day?

I realize the actual depiction of the wedding was anime only but we are talking about going from the OG and Z anime to Super

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2074
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:45 pm
super michael wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:04 pm

Goku never kissing in the mouth in DBS is not a contradiction, since we are never shown in the entire Dragon Ball that Goku has ever kissed in the mouth before.
Not a straight up contradiction but it seems somehow unlikely Chi Chi could convince Goku to have intercourse with her at least twice and never once in their 20+ years of marriage have they kissed on the mouth. Obviously Goku isn’t a total stranger to physical intimacy. It’s not impossible he never kissed Chi Chi just seems unlikely and only brings up questions of Goku’s ability to consent.

Also the fact that they seemed to have had a Christian inspired wedding at the end of Dragon Ball also just raises doubt that they never kissed on the mouth. Like even on their wedding day?

I realize the actual depiction of the wedding was anime only but we are talking about going from the OG and Z anime to Super
It's not impossible to think at some point they had to have done so. Because in the western view of marriage in most places there isn't a total lack of this kind of intimate or passionate contact, and that's why the reference/joke in the one episode of Super seemed so weird to me. Like really, you expect me to just buy that neither Goku nor Chi Chi have ever kissed each other even once in the course of their admittedly unconventional marriage and yet they were still able to concieve Gohan and Goten?
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 pm

It feels like we're ruminating too hard on what amounts to what is little more than a weak joke. As much as I disagree about Goku's recklessness being a regression in Super, at least that's substantive.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
super michael
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 am

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:42 pm
I am pointing out that Goku doesn't learn. He doesn't grow more serious and the growing stakes don't fundamentally outweigh his love of battle. Goku may have shown concern that he was wrong to give Cell the senzu but that fear he shows is not indicitive of him learning something and being more serious. We see that in future fights when he puts his love of battle above the world/universe. Super did not regress him.
I think now I understand your point. Goku does reckless things in DB and DBZ and we know he doesn't learn, since he does the same mistake again. So DBS having Goku being reckless isn't a contradiction. Basically Goku puts battle before the safety of the world.
and Zeno is basically all powerful. He erased universes from existence like it was nothing. Given that and the entire point of the tournament was to wittle them down to one, I don't think it's a big leap to think that wish wouldn't come to mind.
There is no indication that was what Goku was thinking, the only thing we know is that Goku didn't know what to wish for. Vegeta said what he would wish for to Cabba and there was no problem.
He acknowledges it then does NOTHING to rectify the error. He embraces his warrior pride during the fight.
How could he correct his error? I was thinking Goku could have used IT to teleport to KibitoKai to get new Potara, but there was none left.
Although Goku could have used IT to teleport to Gohan and Gotenks to bring them to Kaioshin planet.
And? This is cherry picking! So what if he thought of it? What good does that do your argument when he doesn't actually go through with the more prudent solution?

Goku is more childlike in Super, but he is as reckless as he always was. Don't forget, this is the same guy who wouldn't allow any help against Piccolo so he wouldn't get disqualified from the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's a fight for the fate of the world and he gives Piccolo a free shot to make up for the one Kami blocked.
It means the one who is to blame is Vegeta for making the plan, although Goku gets the blame for following Vegeta plans. In other words they are both to blame here.

Yes that is the problem they made Goku seem more childish, although I see your point how Goku was always reckless. Your point about Piccolo is so good, I think that is what convinced me. However if they wanted to do gag episode of Goku they should have done gag that doesn't contradict on things that Goku has skills or knew.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:35 pm

How could he correct his error? I was thinking Goku could have used IT to teleport to KibitoKai to get new Potara, but there was none left.
Although Goku could have used IT to teleport to Gohan and Gotenks to bring them to Kaioshin planet.
There you go. Even if Goku didn't teleport to get Gohan and Gotenks he could've asked Kaioshin to get them. And even if the potara were all gone (I don't recall), he ultimately agrees with Vegeta. He doesn't do any of it because he doesn't want to.

He's definitely more childlike and by and large that doesn't bother me as I don't think that's a contradiction of his character. I find it entertaining enough to look past it. The things that bother me the most about Super are the use of Freeza, Broly, repitive arcs, boring fanservice, and not enough of those little moments that show growth in the characters or just the right amount of heart.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1386
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by DemonRin » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:17 am

*Dusts off old account* been a while.

I'm on the side who thinks Super Goku is easily consistent with Late manga/Z Goku.

There's SOME obvious exaggeration, but I think a lot of the criticisms are overblown and I honestly think I know a few reasons why.

A big one is that the "Z" portion of the original story had non stop crisis after crisis after crisis.

Think about it, you never really get any down time where everything is peaceful.

Gohan is kidnapped, Goku saves him -> Immediately dies -> in the afterlife, he has to train to fight the Saiyans -> When he arrives back on Earth, friends are already dead -> Goku is severely injured -> Immediately has to go help his Friends on Namek. all his gravity training was specifically for that. -> In his first real fight on Namek, he's injured and has to be put in a tank to heal -> When he comes out, Freeza is transformed and things are already dire -> Goku stranded out in space after the fight -> When he arrives back on Earth, he is IMMEDIATELY informed about the Cyborgs -> All training for the next 3 years is specifically for that threat -> Goku dies against Cell -> Goku is dead and gets ONE DAY back on Earth to spend with his family -> That one day is interrupted by Boo.

The revival movies and Super by comparison, have PLENTY of down time where no actual threats or serious stuff is looming.

There was no oncoming threat before Beerus showed himself. When the threat of Beerus seemed real, Goku put aside his desire to fight and accepted the God powerup. He says out loud he wasn't too keen on it because he didn't earn it, but he still TOOK it and fought for the Earth.
They weren't immediately told at the end of that movie/arc that Freeza was back and they needed to prepare or anything, so we get back to downtime. A LOT of Goku's "excited to train with Whis" moments were this. There was no threat, no looming villain, so he COULD just relax and have fun with his training. The U6 Tournament arc was ALL this. There were no stakes to that, so goofy battle-happy Goku makes a lot more sense.

During the Zamasu arc he was pretty serious for a lot of that tho. He also was the one who suggested they fuse for example despite still thinking it was permanent at least to start. He even comes up with the ultimate solution of calling Zeno (which feels kinda asspully, but the button had been established so...)

I'm honestly behind, I still haven't seen the ToP and only recently started watching the buildup to it, but I remember hearing a lot of people complaining about how bad Goku was apparently during this and how he was callous and didn't care about the Universe being destroyed and yada yada and then I watched it and... It really wasn't that bad?

He doesn't listen to Beerus but honestly didn't think Zeno would wipe out the losing universes. Immediately after the stakes are made clear to him he asks Beerus if he should try to talk the Zenos out of it. Meaning, his desire to fight DIDN'T override this time. He recognized the threat, and wanted to talk to the Zenos to try to fix his mistake but then Beerus tells him no, he'll only make things worse and HE LISTENS. He demonstrates he realized he screwed up not listening to Beerus last time, so this time he DOES. We find out the Zenos were going to wipe those universes ANYWAY and Goku's tournament only gave a Universe a chance to survive. I GUESS you can make an argument he should have thrown that fight during the exhibition match, but they made clear to him he wasn't supposed to and the consequences for getting caught faking it would have been bad.

This is one area I wasn't too happy. I don't think they should have included this. To me, at this point they'd already sold me on this not being Goku's fault due to him being willing to try to talk the Zenos out of it and the Zenos saying they were going to wipe these universes anyway... adding this muddied things IMO.

That's as far as I've gotten actually, so I honestly don't know what happens next (Despite having seen the Broli movie) tho I am excited to see it.

I really enjoy Super. To me, it's not the classic the OG manga was, but it's a worthy continuation and is actually pretty fun. They DO go a little too far at times with the characterization, I can't deny that.

The whole "Goku never kissed Chichi" thing was easily the worst thing in all of Super and probably the DB franchise as a whole.

But this idea that Super Goku is a wholly different character than OG Goku doesn't gel with me.
"FUNi should take [DBZ] out behind the woodshed, give it one last treat, then blow its f%#@$ng brains out before it attacks the baby again." ~Rocketman

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Regular
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am

Oh absolutely, was there EVER a hard break in my mind. Problem is it happened years before Super started airing, so I was more than prepared for it.

I was a dubbie as a kid. I'm the perfect example of the doomsday scenario FUNimation set up for American fans: someone whose entire reference point was the 1996-2003 dub, who owned the Orange Bricks, who hated Kai just because it was more accurate, and who was Faulconer over Kikuchi (even though to be fair I still prefer Faulconer stylistically, though I 100% agree his music doesn't fit what Dragon Ball Z was supposed to be). To me, Son Goku was Kung Fu Space Jesus, the Japanese Superman who was borderline holy and all-merciful and pacifistic.

Some time around 2012 near the announcement of Battle of Gods, I started seriously watching Kai and looking into the origins of the series and the Japanese version as a result. It came at around the same time I started rediscovering kung fu movies too. It didn't take long for me to start seeing quotes that Goku was never supposed to be a "hero" per se and that he was always a selfish character who didn't just love fighting but lusted for it and really just happened to know who to aim his fists at, sort of like those goofy '70s kung fu movies you'd see in any grindhouse theatre. It wasn't fans saying this though. It was Toriyama himself. The creator of the series.

HIM saying that Goku was not supposed to be Kung Fu Space Jesus can't even be reasoned against. It's his character. And speaking as a writer, nothing irks me more than the thought of people so totally misunderstanding your character as to think they're something you exhaustively exclaim they're not... especially because a foreign localization team fucked your work up and didn't bother fixing it in time. Or worse, they changed your character precisely because they felt he needed to be changed to fit the market. Imagine someone in, say, Francoist Spain saying, "Let's take Superman and turn him into a fanatical fascist trade busting wifebeater so he can appeal to Falangist Catholic sensibilities."

For a short time I didn't want to accept it, but I eventually came around to it and realized this was actually a far more interesting character to boot.

It's been interesting seeing Western fans have to deal with this, though. FUNimation lucked out in the 90s. They changed everything about the series that they could, even things that made no sense to change, and could get away with it because Dragon Ball as an IP was over and its creator was so thoroughly burned out that there was zero chance we'd ever get new content for it, coincidentally right as the USA was just getting its puritanical little hands on it. This also came at the tail end of that culture of eviscerating and Macekreing anime to fit "American" sensibilities to boot, especially to make it for American children (who, as aforementioned, were fed complete dreck that pandered excessively to them and, for the most part, were the way they were to not offend their parents more than anything even though those same kids were probably already watching M-rated movies).

They didn't expect Super, I'm sure. By 2015, FUNimation had at least made the attempt to be as faithful to Japanese scripts as possible, taking liberties only where needed (such as for jokes and references that didn't translate well) or where they thought funny. So applying this same standard to Dragon Ball, an already established series with loads of burnt-in memes and standards in the USA meant.... uh oh.

"Guys, I think we fucked up"
LITTLE MISS SAVAGE
Coming March 16th, 2021 to RoyalRoad and who knows where else!

kemuri07
Regular
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am

For a short time I didn't want to accept it, but I eventually came around to it and realized this was actually a far more interesting character to boot.

So...here's my thing: I think either people misinterpreted that Toriyama quote, or Toriyama himself doesn't get his own character. Because while Goku is a severely flawed individual, this idea that he's some anti-hero isn't even reflected in the original manga. Everytime this topic comes up it's usually in reference to either more noble characters such as Superman or Batman, or the original funimation dub. Sure, Goku does not see it as his personal duty the planet, but he absolutely has the qualities that makes him a Hero.

The problem with Super isn't that Goku is presented with flaws, it's that those flaws become so massive that they completely override nearly every single one of his likable traits. More importantly, we're still expected to root for him. There's nothing subversive about Super--it's just poor writing. I think people attach themselves to this idea that "Goku is an anti-hero" because it's edgy and cool, but that's not how Super really approaches it. And while there are some hints of self-awareness, it never really goes there because it can't.

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Regular
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:52 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:04 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am

For a short time I didn't want to accept it, but I eventually came around to it and realized this was actually a far more interesting character to boot.

So...here's my thing: I think either people misinterpreted that Toriyama quote, or Toriyama himself doesn't get his own character.
I understood Toriyama's quote completely after a while. I didn't make that mention of kung fu movies for no reason: it took watching those again, the kinds with characters that went by names like Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan as well as Chia-Hui Liu, Angela Mao, and Sammo Hung and all the Brucesploitation actors (the favorite being the delightfully named Dragon Lee) that made it "click." Son Goku is a martial artist. It sounds like the most bafflingly obvious thing you could possibly say but most Western fans have never even seen a kung fu movie, so the nuances of what makes a kung fu hero what they are are lost on us until we see the works that actually went into Dragon Ball's creation.

Son Goku is exactly the kind of person I could've seen Chan play in a middling-budget kung fu fantasy movie. And in those movies, the heroic characters tend to be far from what we think of as "heroes" but certainly couldn't be considered "morally gray antiheroes." In these films, these characters tend to be eager to fight as much as help, though within reason. Especially when they tend to be portrayed as young and hotheaded with an overzealousness for showing off their martial prowess, often getting their asses kicked by vastly stronger and more experienced warriors and authority figures. They're not going to harm the innocent or deliberately put the innocent in harm's way, though sometimes it looks like they are as part of some plan or trap. And by god, they tend to have voracious appetites. One type of scene in more than a few kung fu movies is that of the hero guzzling down on large amounts of food. The most boring kung fu, kung fu fantasy, and wuxia movies feature the stoic, chivalrous, human-Superman blank slate "hero" and none of these, I can imagine, appealed to Toriyama in comparison to the ones with goofy, mischievous, danger-prone, and perverted protagonists.

It also helps that Son Goku, as in Sun Wukong Son Goku, could be seen as not exactly a hero either. Several of his actions, by Western standards, would be considered downright evil (such as standing against divinity to the point of open rebellion) but also some of his own personal flaws like his arrogance aren't exactly heroic either.

So when putting all that together, it's understandable where Toriyama was coming from. Those who try seeing him as a Western-style antihero instead are still missing the point because they're trying to relate Dragon Ball to something like Marvel, DC, or Image comics.
LITTLE MISS SAVAGE
Coming March 16th, 2021 to RoyalRoad and who knows where else!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:03 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:04 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:03 am

For a short time I didn't want to accept it, but I eventually came around to it and realized this was actually a far more interesting character to boot.

So...here's my thing: I think either people misinterpreted that Toriyama quote, or Toriyama himself doesn't get his own character. Because while Goku is a severely flawed individual, this idea that he's some anti-hero isn't even reflected in the original manga. Everytime this topic comes up it's usually in reference to either more noble characters such as Superman or Batman, or the original funimation dub. Sure, Goku does not see it as his personal duty the planet, but he absolutely has the qualities that makes him a Hero.

The problem with Super isn't that Goku is presented with flaws, it's that those flaws become so massive that they completely override nearly every single one of his likable traits. More importantly, we're still expected to root for him. There's nothing subversive about Super--it's just poor writing. I think people attach themselves to this idea that "Goku is an anti-hero" because it's edgy and cool, but that's not how Super really approaches it. And while there are some hints of self-awareness, it never really goes there because it can't.
the difference is simply the scale. They didn't become more massive, just more obvious. When the stakes were the world people could play off Goku's determination to win as him being a good sport but it's the same exact thing as when Goku places his desire to fight the strongest above preemptively stopping the apocalypse or being all too eager to fight in a tournament for the fate of the multiverse.

Does this really bother people that he puts his love of battle above pretty much all else?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

kemuri07
Regular
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:02 pm

Not really. The difference is quality of writing. While Toriyama may have intended Goku to be selfish, he wrote him in a way that made him a likable protagonist despite his flaws. That's not really the case for Super and why a lot of people, including myself, had issue with the character.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:00 am

kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:02 pm
Not really. The difference is quality of writing. While Toriyama may have intended Goku to be selfish, he wrote him in a way that made him a likable protagonist despite his flaws. That's not really the case for Super and why a lot of people, including myself, had issue with the character.
kemuri07 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:02 pm
Not really. The difference is quality of writing. While Toriyama may have intended Goku to be selfish, he wrote him in a way that made him a likable protagonist despite his flaws. That's not really the case for Super and why a lot of people, including myself, had issue with the character.
That's vague. What made him more like him in DB and DBZ? Because as far as I can tell much of it stems from a mistaken belief that he grew more serious and out of his desire for just battle.

Is being more childlike in his glee for training and fighting that unlikeable?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Skar » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:11 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:00 am
That's vague. What made him more like him in DB and DBZ? Because as far as I can tell much of it stems from a mistaken belief that he grew more serious and out of his desire for just battle.

Is being more childlike in his glee for training and fighting that unlikeable?
In my opinion, Goku was more mature in the Buu saga. It's why I never had any complaints about his adult characterization on GT and considered it natural progression. I could be wrong but the following is my interpretation from the manga.

In the Buu saga, he wanted to teamup with Majin Vegeta to defeat Buu together and willing to have Goten and Trunks train to deal with him. Buu was the most powerful villain in history at the time but Goku was willing to forgo the opportunity of an all-out battle against him for what Goku considered the greater good. He only fought Buu to distract him so Trunks could retrieve the Dragon Radar and refused to let Dende heal him when it might've extended his remaining time on Earth. He was willing to fight Kid Buu alone but he underestimated Buu and regretted it. That shouldn't negate everything he did throughout that saga like unwilling to face Super Buu without fusion ao the only explanation why he would be willing to fight Kid Buu is believing he stood a chance alone.

Almost every arc in DBS began out of Goku's control so it was only the start of the ToP that bothered me. Goku rushes to ask Zeno about the tournament without considering the risk after this god destroyed an entire timeline and six universes previously in the present timeline over some unknown minor annoyance. I've gotten over it at this point but it's the kind of writing I've only seen in fanwork and never predicted I'd see in official material especially after the Buu saga. In DBZ, Goku kept to himself for the next ten years looking forward to facing Buu's reincarnation. In DBS, he still has Uub to look forward to while also currently training to surpass Beerus with Whis, the most powerful being in their universe. The ToP could've easily begun with present Zeno remembering the tournament he promised to have and continue the same way from there without making unnecessarily make Goku look reckless.

I agree with what some others have said that Goku's characterization in DBS comes down to having multiple writers therefore multiple interpretations. I can ignore manga or anime-only scenes because they were usually for the sake of a gag. There were only a few scenes that bothered me but I didn't have a problem with Goku's characterization in BoG and Broly. Despite Broly being a new challenge, I thought it was in-character for Goku to sympathize with him and realize that Broly didn't like fighting rather than only thinking about fighting this strong guy. I think those types of light-hearted stories work better since this is a midquel set during the final timeskip of the series.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18606
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:50 pm

Skar wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:11 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:00 am
That's vague. What made him more like him in DB and DBZ? Because as far as I can tell much of it stems from a mistaken belief that he grew more serious and out of his desire for just battle.

Is being more childlike in his glee for training and fighting that unlikeable?
In my opinion, Goku was more mature in the Buu saga. It's why I never had any complaints about his adult characterization on GT and considered it natural progression. I could be wrong but the following is my interpretation from the manga.

In the Buu saga, he wanted to teamup with Majin Vegeta to defeat Buu together and willing to have Goten and Trunks train to deal with him. Buu was the most powerful villain in history at the time but Goku was willing to forgo the opportunity of an all-out battle against him for what Goku considered the greater good. He only fought Buu to distract him so Trunks could retrieve the Dragon Radar and refused to let Dende heal him when it might've extended his remaining time on Earth. He was willing to fight Kid Buu alone but he underestimated Buu and regretted it. That shouldn't negate everything he did throughout that saga like unwilling to face Super Buu without fusion ao the only explanation why he would be willing to fight Kid Buu is believing he stood a chance alone.

Almost every arc in DBS began out of Goku's control so it was only the start of the ToP that bothered me. Goku rushes to ask Zeno about the tournament without considering the risk after this god destroyed an entire timeline and six universes previously in the present timeline over some unknown minor annoyance. I've gotten over it at this point but it's the kind of writing I've only seen in fanwork and never predicted I'd see in official material especially after the Buu saga. In DBZ, Goku kept to himself for the next ten years looking forward to facing Buu's reincarnation. In DBS, he still has Uub to look forward to while also currently training to surpass Beerus with Whis, the most powerful being in their universe. The ToP could've easily begun with present Zeno remembering the tournament he promised to have and continue the same way from there without making unnecessarily make Goku look reckless.

I agree with what some others have said that Goku's characterization in DBS comes down to having multiple writers therefore multiple interpretations. I can ignore manga or anime-only scenes because they were usually for the sake of a gag. There were only a few scenes that bothered me but I didn't have a problem with Goku's characterization in BoG and Broly. Despite Broly being a new challenge, I thought it was in-character for Goku to sympathize with him and realize that Broly didn't like fighting rather than only thinking about fighting this strong guy. I think those types of light-hearted stories work better since this is a midquel set during the final timeskip of the series.
How was he more mature? He still puts his love of battle above the fate of the universe and if you don't see SSJ3 as a retcon, he allows vegeta to goad him into a pissing contest for nothing. Instead of dealing with the threat he helped create he passes the buck to young kids. That doesn't show maturity in the least.

When fighting Kid Buu instead of doing the prudent thing and getting Gohan to help once he returned he used the Genkidama.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Skar » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:50 pm
How was he more mature? He still puts his love of battle above the fate of the universe and if you don't see SSJ3 as a retcon, he allows vegeta to goad him into a pissing contest for nothing. Instead of dealing with the threat he helped create he passes the buck to young kids. That doesn't show maturity in the least.

When fighting Kid Buu instead of doing the prudent thing and getting Gohan to help once he returned he used the Genkidama.
Well I said it was my interpretation. He didn't make the smartest decision at every turn but my point was that he was willing to forgo fighting Buu on his own for what he believed to be the greater good. He had no intention of being resurrected and wanted them to deal with it to be prepared for a future threat since he wouldn't be around. Goten and Trunks were only a few years younger than Gohan when he killed Cell and no way for him to predict Buu was going to get stronger by the time they finished their training.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1813
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:08 pm

I don't think it's a matter of what Goku does, but how.
Goku's been doing pretty much the same kind of reckless stuff, only in Z he did so with a stern look on his face, he seemed more serious. Well, that's how Toei portrayed him in the anime, and that's what sticks with the fandom.
And in DBS, Goku does the same kind of stupid stuff but with a funny look on his face, he is all goofy-looking, he always has his eyes wide open, a naive expression, more carefree, something hard to find in DBZ, closer to his childhood.

All in all, I don't think the original portray of Goku has changed that much from DB to DBS, but Toei might have taken liberties in the 90s that weren't that faithful to the original material.

Post Reply