Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:12 pm

That whole arc was a mess. That wasn't the greater good and it shows no growth. The idea that Goku wanted the living to deal with the problem is like a parent loading their kid up with debt, not helping out on the basis of saying "Kids have to learn to make their own way". He's partial responsible and he's neglecting his responsibility to make it right.

You're right about their age but Gohan needed considerable amount of help from Goku to defeat Cell.
I don't think it's a matter of what Goku does, but how.
Goku's been doing pretty much the same kind of reckless stuff, only in Z he did so with a stern look on his face, he seemed more serious. Well, that's how Toei portrayed him in the anime, and that's what sticks with the fandom.
Bingo!
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:48 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:12 pm
That whole arc was a mess. That wasn't the greater good and it shows no growth. The idea that Goku wanted the living to deal with the problem is like a parent loading their kid up with debt, not helping out on the basis of saying "Kids have to learn to make their own way". He's partial responsible and he's neglecting his responsibility to make it right.

You're right about their age but Gohan needed considerable amount of help from Goku to defeat Cell.
Again I think you're missing my point. The argument is that Goku puts his desire for battle above all else didn't apply to the majority of this arc, the final arc in the series. He refused to fight Majin Vegeta at first and kept trying to talk him out of it until Vegeta agreed to postpone their battle and fight Buu together. He taught Goten and Trunks the Fusion Dance so it's not like he left them to figure out how to defeat Buu on their own.. He couldn't have predicted Buu was going to get stronger otherwise they may have won. He wished Gohan luck after Old Kai's ritual and assumed he was strong enough to finish the job but couldn't predict Buu would absorb people. When Old Kai gave him the Potara, he wanted to fuse with Gohan and also couldn't have predicted Gohan wouldn't catch it. If any of these things were successful then he would've missed his opportunity to fight Buu one-on-one and Goku was willing to accept that.

I don't think most of DBS conflicts with this interpretation because almost every arc began outside of his control. The ToP was the only arc that I thought could've been handled differently because it would've played out the same if Zeno simply remembered the tournament he promised to have one day. He has enough strong people in his universe to look forward to fighting that I could see him deciding contacting Zeno again wasn't worth the risk and Zeno himself decides that it's time to have his tournament.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:37 am

I got it but I would argue what he did was worse in that arc. At least when he put his lust for battle before all else he dealt with the issue himself.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:53 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:37 am
I got it but I would argue what he did was worse in that arc. At least when he put his lust for battle before all else he dealt with the issue himself.
Goku did make sure to secure the Dragon Radar before leaving Earth. He initially intended to deal with the threat because he said him and Vegeta were responsible and wanted to defeat Buu together. When he first brought up the Fusion Dance, he wanted to try it with Gohan or Vegeta if they were still alive. Relying on Goten and Trunks wasn't the first option but he thought they had the best chance since they were most compatible for the Fusion Dance. I'm just saying he decided on what he thought was the best available option and it had nothing to do with his lust for battle.

In DBS, everyone is at Zeno's mercy. Up to that point, all Goku knew about him is that he's the most powerful God and capable of wiping out several universes when he's in a bad mood. Since he destroys universes in one shot, there's no backup plan of using DBs to restore anything unless Zeno allows it. I have no issue with the idea of Goku wanting to win the tournament and use the wish to resurrect everyone. I'm talking about how the arc began because Goku is still training to surpass Beerus in his own universe so he doesn't need to be bored enough to remind Zeno of the tournament.

An example of what I'm trying to say is SSJ4 Gogeta messing around with Omega Shenron until the fusion ran out. I've heard theories for why he did that but I don't recall it being explained in the series. If they had him attempt to kill Omega Shenron from the start and the fusion ran out earlier than expected then we get the same outcome. In the Moro arc, there was a big discussion about Goku wanting to spare Moro and giving him a Senzu bean when the arc could've continued the same way without this happening at all. I don't think I've seen anyone argue these are great character moments and only acceptable at best. My point is they all could've been avoided entirely with little impact on the overall arc and it would still be consistent with what's been established about those characters in the past.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:11 pm

Goku giving Moro a senzu bean wasn't out of any naive desire to spare him or a reckless disregard for the situation, though. Goku already expected Moro to immediately go back on his word and attack him - he wanted to illustrate just how spineless he really was and maybe get through to him in the process of striking him back down.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:34 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:11 pm
Goku giving Moro a senzu bean wasn't out of any naive desire to spare him or a reckless disregard for the situation, though. Goku already expected Moro to immediately go back on his word and attack him - he wanted to illustrate just how spineless he really was and maybe get through to him in the process of striking him back down.
Oops I doublechecked the chapter and forgot that part. I just remembered the discussions when the draft pages were released and thinking "Does Goku really need to give him a senzu bean for this scene to work?"

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 pm

I'm rewatching Super and things are finally starting to stick as vividly as my recollection as DB and Z, so while I agree that his character is more exaggerated than he used to be, he's not completely out of character nor has he regressed. His recklessness has always been there. He never grew out of it but what Super's writers are playing up more is his childlike exuberance, but it's not just Goku, many of the characters key traits are played bigger. It's only Chichi who feels like she regressed or at least she's the most obvious example. Vegeta doesn't feel like he regressed. He feels like he's moved forward a little though there are moments like "Bingo!" that feel a step too far. At least that was funny, though.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:21 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 pm
I'm rewatching Super and things are finally starting to stick as vividly as my recollection as DB and Z, so while I agree that his character is more exaggerated than he used to be, he's not completely out of character nor has he regressed. His recklessness has always been there. He never grew out of it but what Super's writers are playing up more is his childlike exuberance, but it's not just Goku, many of the characters key traits are played bigger. It's only Chichi who feels like she regressed or at least she's the most obvious example. Vegeta doesn't feel like he regressed. He feels like he's moved forward a little though there are moments like "Bingo!" that feel a step too far. At least that was funny, though.
Chi Chi was a weird example because they reverted her back to her pre-Boo Tiger Mom characterization for no reason other than “that’s how fans remember her” and it doesn’t seem to bother fans probably because as hated as she was everyone remembers Tiger Mom nagging wife Chi Chi not the Chi Chi who trained Goten herself.

I like Vegeta as a family man. It’s an interesting dynamic that the Saiyan who grew up as a Saiyan assimilated to earth culture better than the Saiyan who was raised on earth. But the times where Vegeta is used ad a comedic character don’t gel well. The grandmother’s secret sauce joke comes to mind.


No one ever seems to talk about Gohan receiving character development in Super he was severely lacking post-Saiyan saga. They gave fans what they wanted (bringing Gohan back as a fighter) in a fairly believable and natural way that fit his character and even called out his arrogance when fighting Super Boo.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:21 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 pm
I'm rewatching Super and things are finally starting to stick as vividly as my recollection as DB and Z, so while I agree that his character is more exaggerated than he used to be, he's not completely out of character nor has he regressed. His recklessness has always been there. He never grew out of it but what Super's writers are playing up more is his childlike exuberance, but it's not just Goku, many of the characters key traits are played bigger. It's only Chichi who feels like she regressed or at least she's the most obvious example. Vegeta doesn't feel like he regressed. He feels like he's moved forward a little though there are moments like "Bingo!" that feel a step too far. At least that was funny, though.
Chi Chi was a weird example because they reverted her back to her pre-Boo Tiger Mom characterization for no reason other than “that’s how fans remember her” and it doesn’t seem to bother fans probably because as hated as she was everyone remembers Tiger Mom nagging wife Chi Chi not the Chi Chi who trained Goten herself.

I like Vegeta as a family man. It’s an interesting dynamic that the Saiyan who grew up as a Saiyan assimilated to earth culture better than the Saiyan who was raised on earth. But the times where Vegeta is used ad a comedic character don’t gel well. The grandmother’s secret sauce joke comes to mind.


No one ever seems to talk about Gohan receiving character development in Super he was severely lacking post-Saiyan saga. They gave fans what they wanted (bringing Gohan back as a fighter) in a fairly believable and natural way that fit his character and even called out his arrogance when fighting Super Boo.
All this. There's plenty of humor to be had with Vegeta being the curmudgeon as well as his assimilation into Earth life the broad comedy of him changing Beerus's bedsheets doesn't work as well, at least not as executed.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:21 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:54 pm
I'm rewatching Super and things are finally starting to stick as vividly as my recollection as DB and Z, so while I agree that his character is more exaggerated than he used to be, he's not completely out of character nor has he regressed. His recklessness has always been there. He never grew out of it but what Super's writers are playing up more is his childlike exuberance, but it's not just Goku, many of the characters key traits are played bigger. It's only Chichi who feels like she regressed or at least she's the most obvious example. Vegeta doesn't feel like he regressed. He feels like he's moved forward a little though there are moments like "Bingo!" that feel a step too far. At least that was funny, though.
Chi Chi was a weird example because they reverted her back to her pre-Boo Tiger Mom characterization for no reason other than “that’s how fans remember her” and it doesn’t seem to bother fans probably because as hated as she was everyone remembers Tiger Mom nagging wife Chi Chi not the Chi Chi who trained Goten herself.

I like Vegeta as a family man. It’s an interesting dynamic that the Saiyan who grew up as a Saiyan assimilated to earth culture better than the Saiyan who was raised on earth. But the times where Vegeta is used ad a comedic character don’t gel well. The grandmother’s secret sauce joke comes to mind.


No one ever seems to talk about Gohan receiving character development in Super he was severely lacking post-Saiyan saga. They gave fans what they wanted (bringing Gohan back as a fighter) in a fairly believable and natural way that fit his character and even called out his arrogance when fighting Super Boo.
Chi Chi didn't revert back to her Pre Buu Saga self, she is worse than ever. Chi Chi never tried to stop Goku from training at all in DBZ, in DBS Chi Chi does try to stop Goku from training and controlling him.
Chi Chi in DBZ she at least compromised and let Goku have a say in what he can do with Gohan. Chi Chi even compromised to allow Gohan to go to Namek, train for the Cyborgs for 3 years, train in the ROSAT for 1 years which is 1 day and go to the Cell Game.

DBS Chi Chi doesn't let Goku do anything he wants wtih Goten, isn't allowed to train with him or spar with him. He isn't allowed to take Goten with him for training like Whis. There is 0% chance of changing DBS Chi Chi minds.

DBZ Chi Chi her mind could get changed and then comes her Buu Saga development which made her a good character. She lost her hate of training and fighting.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:18 pm

Chichi didn't compromise and let Gohan go to Namek, she gave in. Gohan yelled at her and asserted that he wanted go. Regardless, it exaggerates her Tiger-mom-ness whereas at least other characters were either static or moved forward in some way even if in more caricaturish ways.

Chichi rarely changed her mind as much as she went "Oh forget it, you don't listen to me anyway"
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:18 pm
Chichi didn't compromise and let Gohan go to Namek, she gave in. Gohan yelled at her and asserted that he wanted go. Regardless, it exaggerates her Tiger-mom-ness whereas at least other characters were either static or moved forward in some way even if in more caricaturish ways.

Chichi rarely changed her mind as much as she went "Oh forget it, you don't listen to me anyway"
Chi Chi still allowed Gohan to go to Namek on the condition that he takes his homework to space, maybe compromise might not be the correct word. In DBS Goten told Chi Chi that he wants to get super strong, but no Chi Chi didn't care. Chi Chi never lets Goten train or fight at all in DBS.

Goku wanted to train Gohan for 3 years, but in the end Chi Chi allowed Goku to train Gohan for 3 years on the condition that once the cyborg are done that Gohan only studies. Again you won't see Chi Chi do that in DBS.

In DBS her answer is always no to train and fight. DBZ her answer can start as no but later on turn to yes with conditions. Then comes Buu Saga were she has no problem with fighting and training, the best version of Chi Chi.
We never seen DBZ Chi Chi stop Goku from training that is new in DBS.

Chi Chi even alerted Bulma to stop Goten from going with Goku to Whis, that is just going to far.

DBS Chi Chi was just plain annoying, it is a good thing that in DBS manga they didn't make Chi Chi regress.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:11 pm

She didn't allow anything. Gohan asserted his independence. I get it, they play up the tiger mom stuff which even in DBZ was played up more than the manga. She didn't compromise because she saw reason. It was either out of her control, someone disobeyed her, or she flat out gave in.

The cyborg thing was a case of "fine you are just gonna do it anyway" And she agrees after Goku accidentally hits her too hard.

She was regressed in Super. The big difference in those situations and Goten is Goten doesn't assert himself and do it anyway. He complies which feels out of character for him.
We never seen DBZ Chi Chi stop Goku from training that is new in DBS.
When do we see that in Super?
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:11 pm
She didn't allow anything. Gohan asserted his independence. I get it, they play up the tiger mom stuff which even in DBZ was played up more than the manga. She didn't compromise because she saw reason. It was either out of her control, someone disobeyed her, or she flat out gave in.

The cyborg thing was a case of "fine you are just gonna do it anyway" And she agrees after Goku accidentally hits her too hard.

She was regressed in Super. The big difference in those situations and Goten is Goten doesn't assert himself and do it anyway. He complies which feels out of character for him.
We never seen DBZ Chi Chi stop Goku from training that is new in DBS.
When do we see that in Super?
Even though your right that Chi Chi gave in, that is still a good thing. Goten in DBS at the end he didn't comply he and Goku got away from Chi Chi while she was talking to herself. She didn't say "Oh Goku with Goten, nothing is going to go wrong", no Chi Chi got Bulma involved.

Goku wanted to go to Whis for training but Chi Chi wanted to prevent Goku from going to Whis for training, she didn't care what reason Gohan, Goten and Goku gave. Goku had to run away and grab Whis to leave Chi Chi.
There was episode that Goku says he can't train with Kaio or Whis due to Chi Chi making him work, which again is something we don't see before.

Remember this both Future Gohan and Future Goten died due to being weak to do anything. Chi Chi reason that there are no bad guys is really stupid. There are always evil around.

I want to see Goten train and fight and not see Chi Chi constantly stop him 100% which is annoying. Luckily the manga of DBS didn't do this.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:37 pm

There was an explanation for why Chi Chi was strict on Goku working. They were running low on finances because Gyumao was running out of treasure.

And that’s the funny thing. Chi Chi is rarely ever actually wrong. Goku should be working to support his family especially if she’s the one taking care of all household duties. Even her not wanting her underage sons to go off to train to fight aliens/cyborgs/whatever is justifiable. She’s only “wrong” because of the type of series she’s in.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:43 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:37 pm
There was an explanation for why Chi Chi was strict on Goku working. They were running low on finances because Gyumao was running out of treasure.

And that’s the funny thing. Chi Chi is rarely ever actually wrong. Goku should be working to support his family especially if she’s the one taking care of all household duties. Even her not wanting her underage sons to go off to train to fight aliens/cyborgs/whatever is justifiable. She’s only “wrong” because of the type of series she’s in.
Goku was given money by Mr Satan and then later Chi Chi lied to Goku about spending all their money in a short time to force Goku to work. Chi Chi excuse was that she wants Goku to be a great example for Pan.

What about Goten and Goku having a battle, what is wrong with that? Goten dream is to get super strong, that is his reason to go to Whis and he wasn't planning on going alone he was going with Goku.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:49 pm

Regardless Super's issues with Goku aren't necessarily due to other writers taking on the character. Characters being broader is very common as a series progresses. It happens all the time in sitcoms. It's not inherently bad, either.

As exaggerated as Goku's child like enthusiasm for battle can come across in Super (he leaves a Goku shaped hole in his wall when he hears Vegeta is training with Whis and Beerus) it's preferable to his dub dialog being the righter of wrongs but his actions being incongruous with that.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:09 pm

Dragon Ball Super isn't a sitcom that is a huge difference, plus DBS is after the Buu Saga. When character progress and grow they get less childish and more patient. Goku being a pest to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train with him, that never happened in DB and DBZ.
Goku didn't let Whis eat in peace, so a yes from Whis wasn't enough for Goku it had to be now.

Whis said yes and because Goku was annoying Whis was considering not training Goku. Remember this Goku doing dumb things can be funny, but when it is done too much it can get boring.

Vegeta is actually way better in DBS both anime and manga. I have zero issues with him.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm

super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Dragon Ball Super isn't a sitcom that is a huge difference, plus DBS is after the Buu Saga. When character progress and grow they get less childish and more patient. Goku being a pest to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train with him, that never happened in DB and DBZ.
Goku didn't let Whis eat in peace, so a yes from Whis wasn't enough for Goku it had to be now.

Whis said yes and because Goku was annoying Whis was considering not training Goku. Remember this Goku doing dumb things can be funny, but when it is done too much it can get boring.

Vegeta is actually way better in DBS both anime and manga. I have zero issues with him.
It's not but it started as a gag manga and those roots are always there and returns pretty strongly in the Buu arc to the point of Buu getting bored and reading manga while drinking a cream soda. The story doesn't get progressively more serious. The tone continually shifts. It's goofier than a sitcom so the goofiness that it displays is not at odds with the story. Super just took the goofier elements and did them more often and in odd places. A villain wishing for something as trivial as a few years off their age is a very DB joke, it's just not a Freeza joke.

Being a pest to Whis is not out of character. What you find annoying isn't relevant to whether it is in character
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 pm
super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Dragon Ball Super isn't a sitcom that is a huge difference, plus DBS is after the Buu Saga. When character progress and grow they get less childish and more patient. Goku being a pest to Whis, even though Whis agreed to train with him, that never happened in DB and DBZ.
Goku didn't let Whis eat in peace, so a yes from Whis wasn't enough for Goku it had to be now.

Whis said yes and because Goku was annoying Whis was considering not training Goku. Remember this Goku doing dumb things can be funny, but when it is done too much it can get boring.

Vegeta is actually way better in DBS both anime and manga. I have zero issues with him.
It's not but it started as a gag manga and those roots are always there and returns pretty strongly in the Buu arc.

Being a pest to Whis is not out of character. What you find annoying isn't relevant to whether it is in character
I realize Dragon Ball started out as a gag manga and anime, gag are good because it makes me laugh.

Goku being a pest to Whis was out of character and here is why:

When Master Roshi said he he would train Goku, that was it he waited. Lets not forget Master Roshi first made Goku bring a girl, otherwise no training. Goku didn't turn into a pest to make Master Roshi train him and he did as he was told, he brought the wrong type of girl until he got the right one. Goku trying to get Master Roshi attention by screaming into his ear is not the same as Whis already agreeing to train Goku and Goku being a pest.

When Kaio made Goku tell as joke, Goku didn't become a pest so Kaio would train him instantly he tried to do as Kaio told him and tell a joke.

What I find good or bad is irrelevant fair enough, however when they make Goku forget skills, knowledge or progress from his past self just for a gag and they do it constantly then that is bad. Make other characters do some gag and not constantly Goku only.

What about Goku suggesting to eat load of senzu beans to become immortal, Goku has never said anything as dumb as this in DBZ.

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