Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

[90sDBZ]

I'm not claiming that he always did the right thing in Z. He certainly acted irresponsibly at times.

The key difference was that even he couldn't turn a blind eye when shit hit the fan right in front of him. Frieza was an immediate threat to everyone, while the Androids were 3 years away, which left him 3 years to train. Was it a morally sound decision? Of course not. But I can at least understand his thought process. In the ToP people are being deleted right in front of him and he doesn't seem to care in the least.

I can see what you're getting at when you say Goku made rationalisations in Z. But making rationalisations requires at least having a conscience to begin with, something he often seems to lack altogether in Super.

And for all the iffy rationalisations he did make in Z, I honestly don't believe letting Gotenks fight was one of them. What did he stand to gain personally? He was willing to sacrifice the fight of a lifetime. Even if it was a weak plan I honestly think his heart was in the right place.

While he did put the team together for the ToP, he also recklessly disregarded Gohan's strategy from the outset, which raises the question why he made him captain at all.

[ABED]

In context that comes across as a rationalization and not a genuine reason he doesn't stop him. And it's not like they would have to kill him to stop him. They don't even bother to track him down and keep tabs on him for the future. I'll give you the Piccolo example but even there that feels like a bonus to him rather than the motivating factor especially in light of how he fought the battle where flat out refused any help regardless of the stakes or how hurt he was because to do so would mean he gets disqualified.

I guess I see your distinction of how his love of fighting is portrayed but I don't see an issue with him having childlike glee about it. He's still putting the earth in danger

The key difference was that even he couldn't turn a blind eye when shit hit the fan right in front of him.

To which I would say that did not change. He didn't think Freeza would blow up the world in the middle of the battle but when it happens once he's gone back in time he kills Freeza.

In the ToP people are being deleted right in front of him and he doesn't seem to care in the least.

What do you expect him to do? He knew those were the stakes going in and he can't do anything about it.

But making rationalisations requires at least having a conscience to begin with, something he often seems to lack altogether in Super.

I don't think that's true at all. It comes across as not wanting a debate.

I honestly don't believe letting Gotenks fight was one of them. What did he stand to gain personally? He was willing to sacrifice the fight of a lifetime. Even if it was a weak plan I honestly think his heart was in the right place.

His heart wasn't in the right place. How would he be sacrificing the fight of a lifetime if he doesn't have the time to fight it? If anything it is worse than in Super because he is passing the buck. If we don't consider Super Saiyan 3 as a retcon, apparently Goku is willing to put the Earth in danger for a fight but not willing to clean up the mess.

[90sDBZ]

The key difference was that even he couldn't turn a blind eye when shit hit the fan right in front of him.

To which I would say that did not change. He didn't think Freeza would blow up the world in the middle of the battle but when it happens once he's gone back in time he kills Freeza.

Frieza destroyed Namek in the middle of their previous battle, so it should have been painfully obvious at that point he'd try blowing up Earth.

In the ToP people are being deleted right in front of him and he doesn't seem to care in the least.

What do you expect him to do? He knew those were the stakes going in and he can't do anything about it.

I'd expect him to show some sign of remorse considering he's largely responsible. Or at least drop the overly happy attitude he has throughout the tournament. We at least got that much during the Cell Games, where he acknowledged he'd screwed up and apologised to his friends.

But making rationalisations requires at least having a conscience to begin with, something he often seems to lack altogether in Super.

I don't think that's true at all. It comes across as not wanting a debate.

I think it is true because he shows no remorse for anything he causes, even when it's unclear that the damage could be fixed.

I honestly don't believe letting Gotenks fight was one of them. What did he stand to gain personally? He was willing to sacrifice the fight of a lifetime. Even if it was a weak plan I honestly think his heart was in the right place.

His heart wasn't in the right place. How would he be sacrificing the fight of a lifetime if he doesn't have the time to fight it? If anything it is worse than in Super because he is passing the buck. If we don't consider Super Saiyan 3 as a retcon, apparently Goku is willing to put the Earth in danger for a fight but not willing to clean up the mess.

But he would have had time to fight Buu if he'd immediately teleported to him upon sensing him while fighting Vegeta. He still had several hours left on earth at that point. And even before the boys got involved his initial plan was Fusion with Gohan or Vegeta. He was willing to set pride aside and fuse before even taking a crack at Buu, and sacrifice the fight of the century all for the sake of saving the earth.

In his mind he might have been able to beat Buu with SS3, but he'd learned by then that there will always be a stronger villain, and he wouldn't be there to stop them. He wanted the boys to be ready for a future threat, and stopping Buu would be great experience. I don't believe for a second that Goku intended to pass the buck. You make it sound like he just couldn't be bothered to stop Buu.

[ABED]

Frieza destroyed Namek in the middle of their previous battle, so it should have been painfully obvious at that point he'd try blowing up Earth.

And yet he shows up on Earth without destroying it before Goku arrives. Clearly Freeza wants a fight. Until then it's just a possibility and it's not staring him right in the face like say when 20 destroyed the city in front of him.

He was willing to set pride aside

he acknowledged he'd screwed up and apologised to his friends.

And goes right back to his old ways in the next arc.

The TOP wasn't his idea so he didn't screw up.

I think it is true because he shows no remorse for anything he causes, even when it's unclear that the damage could be fixed.

Was he really? He wasn't willing to put pride aside and put a stop to Vegeta when apparently he had the power to.
Does she show any signs for the death of all those people at the hands of any of the enemies he let live?

He was willing to set pride aside and fuse before even taking a crack at Buu, and sacrifice the fight of the century all for the sake of saving the earth.

Yes he's willing but we also see that he's also willing to put things in great danger for the sake of a fight. It never dawns on him to get Gohan once he's alive.

I don't believe for a second that Goku intended to pass the buck. You make it sound like he just couldn't be bothered to stop Buu.

If Goku has the power and apparently the time to defeat Buu, why is it in any way a good thing to put the world in greater danger if he is unsure the kids who still need time (more than he has) to train? That's not well intentioned. It's naive in the extreme. It's also out of character. If he has enough time and enough confidence to think he has a chance to win, why wouldn't he fight Buu? What points to Goku having learned anything?

It seems the only thing missing from Goku in Super to you is the flimsiest pretense of another reason to let enemies go beyond a good battle because you already acknowledged how reckless he is throughout the entirety of DBZ.

[90sDBZ]

And yet he shows up on Earth without destroying it before Goku arrives. Clearly Freeza wants a fight.

Frieza was willing to fight on Namek too, until he started losing that is. It should have been obvious history would repeat itself.

And goes right back to his old ways in the next arc.

He was sorry he put Gohan in that situation in light of realising Gohan had no passion for fighting. Goten and Trunks clearly enjoyed fighting, which Goku saw during the Tournament.

The TOP wasn't his idea so he didn't screw up.

He'd already seen first hand that Zeno was willing to erase innocents with Trunks' timeline. Going to Zeno to push for the Tournament even after seeing that (and repeated warnings from Beerus) goes far beyond his regular irresponsibility.

Was he really? He wasn't willing to put pride aside and put a stop to Vegeta when apparently he had the power to.
Does he show any signs for the death of all those people at the hands of any of the enemies he let live?

He clearly cares in Z because of his reaction to Cell wiping out the soldiers. It prompts him to get new Dragon Balls to revive everyone. He does the same thing during Buu's rampage, trying his best to ensure everyone is revived. There are countless times throughout both DB and Z were he shows distress at innocent people being put in danger. In Super this distress is largely absent, and he even risks destroying the universe himself during his fight with Beerus.

[kyppk]

I hadn't seen Z for many years when DBS came out, and there was a bit of an adjustment for me. I'd honestly thought I had either outgrown the series, or that I was remembering Z through rose-tinted glasses for a while. I ended up stopping DBS around the end of the Copy-Vegeta arc because of that. I then came back a few years later when Super was fully released in bluray and skipped the last bit of Copy-Vegeta and went to Future Trunks and made it though the entirely of Super still having some gripes about certain characters behaviors.

[ABED]

And yet he shows up on Earth without destroying it before Goku arrives. Clearly Freeza wants a fight.

Frieza was willing to fight on Namek too, until he started losing that is. It should have been obvious history would repeat itself.

And goes right back to his old ways in the next arc.

He was sorry he put Gohan in that situation in light of realising Gohan had no passion for fighting. Goten and Trunks clearly enjoyed fighting, which Goku saw during the Tournament.

The TOP wasn't his idea so he didn't screw up.

He'd already seen first hand that Zeno was willing to erase innocents with Trunks' timeline. Going to Zeno to push for the Tournament even after seeing that (and repeated warnings from Beerus) goes far beyond his regular irresponsibility.

Was he really? He wasn't willing to put pride aside and put a stop to Vegeta when apparently he had the power to.
Does he show any signs for the death of all those people at the hands of any of the enemies he let live?

He clearly cares in Z because of his reaction to Cell wiping out the soldiers. It prompts him to get new Dragon Balls to revive everyone. He does the same thing during Buu's rampage, trying his best to ensure everyone is revived. There are countless times throughout both DB and Z were he shows distress at innocent people being put in danger. In Super this distress is largely absent, and he even risks destroying the universe himself during his fight with Beerus.

You are arguing what you think Goku should've done not what you think he would do. It should be obvious what all these bad guys will do and he still lets them go.

Not only did he know Gohan wasn't passionate about fighting (it's flat out text) that's not relevant to whether he went back to putting the world in danger for the sake of fighting.

The innocents were already going to die when zamasu merged with that reality. And again, we're dealing with a possibility not the fact staring Goku right in his face. Also the TOP was gonna happen anyways.

Goku is also upset at the destruction caused by Beerus and Zamasu. It's not largely absent you refuse to see it and outright dismiss DBZ's counterexamples because he gave such a flimsy pretense for why he let bad guys go.

[Gaffer Tape]

I agree with those who have already said that, generally speaking, any feelings of alienation or an adjustment period has little to do with the dub's mishandling of Goku but simply that Dragon Ball Super's Goku is in many ways a strong departure from how he was portrayed in classic Dragon Ball.

It's certainly not as simple as saying "Goku in classic DB is 'x'" and "Goku in DB Super is 'y'". That's akin to saying "Dragon Ball the TV series is about comedy" and "Dragon Ball Z is about serious fighting." As we have all discussed to death around here, Dragon Ball's writing evolved over time, and while you can make sweeping generalizations to a degree that fit those two categories, the truth is a bit more nuanced than that. The same applies to the evolution of how Goku's character was written, and it's easy to see the seeds of what would become DB Super's Goku in later portions of the original Dragon Ball manga. It's no secret that I have taken issue with how the character of Goku was handled in the later arcs of DB and how inconsistent he became to what had been portrayed before. He overall becomes far more reckless and far more obsessed with fighting to the exclusion of all else (unless the progression of the plot requires he not be, in which case he's not). So it's all there, and you can easily chart the progression. It doesn't come out of nowhere. However, the degree of its application in the new series is precipitous.

I do agree with MasenkoHA that what stands out about this newest incarnation of Goku is his pronounced lack of maturity. He very much has the same disposition as Goku from the very beginning of the series to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he started pat-patting people's genitals again. If there is one consistent developmental trait of Goku is that he does gradually and naturally become more mature. Sure, he's still a silly goofball throughout, but he becomes more savvy and certainly knows how to be serious when necessary. It's not hard to see how that reintroduced childlike disposition melds with his increased recklessness that was carried over and amplified from the latter part of the original series. Those two traits complement each other well enough in isolation that you can see how one feeds into the other. But when you compare it to any other form of Goku, it is incredibly jarring.

I think it's best expressed by this wonderful redraw by MatoiRisu on Twitter, who extrapolates how Goku's first encounter with Freeza might look were it this new Dragon Ball Super version of Goku.

[Grimlock]

That image has become so iconic now. It truly expresses in the most accurate way what is so wrong about modern Goku.

That difference in Goku's characterisation doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you see it, no matter the point of view. Goku is older in Dragon Ball Super. Goku is more experienced in Dragon Ball Super. How is it even possible to regret one's personality to a point even before you had showed some level of maturity in the face of the enemy/serious situation?

And the cherry on the top is that the last trace of a matured Goku can only be found nowadays in a medium not even handled by the original creator and author. How is it possible that Toei, the one that handled Goku poorly thoughout the movies and the anime is also portraying the very same character correctly through Xeno Goku? The difference is even more noticeable when they are in the same place.

He very much has the same disposition as Goku from the very beginning of the series to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he started pat-patting people's genitals again.

That has already been done... again. Are we going to have a third time in Dragon Ball Super?

[Kataphrut]

That image has become so iconic now. It truly expresses in the most accurate way what is so wrong about modern Goku.

That difference in Goku's characterisation doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you see it, no matter the point of view. Goku is older in Dragon Ball Super. Goku is more experienced in Dragon Ball Super. How is it even possible to regret one's personality to a point even before you had showed some level of maturity in the face of the enemy/serious situation?

And the cherry on the top is that the last trace of a matured Goku can only be found nowadays in a medium not even handled by the original creator and author. How is it possible that Toei, the one that handled Goku poorly thoughout the movies and the anime is also portraying the very same character correctly through Xeno Goku? The difference is even more noticeable when they are in the same place.

Well, the obvious reason would be that "Toei" is not a singular writing entity in the way Toriyama and Toyotaro are. It's fun to look at their output and draw trends from it, but that doesn't really work when you're talking about an animation company with multiple writers. There were episodes of Super that portrayed Goku more maturely than others, just as there were episodes of GT that portrayed him more immaturely.

The reason it doesn't bother me is because you could say the same about him across Toriyama's output. The three modern movies in particular lean hard into the immature waku waku attitude that people seem to associate exclusively with Toei.

He very much has the same disposition as Goku from the very beginning of the series to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he started pat-patting people's genitals again.

That has already been done... again. Are we going to have a third time in Dragon Ball Super?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he say "Hey Gohan, your new friend's a girl right?" when he met Videl in the Buu arc. At least he said that in the Kai dub, and this thread was meant to be about dub Goku.

[Fable]

I do agree with MasenkoHA that what stands out about this newest incarnation of Goku is his pronounced lack of maturity. He very much has the same disposition as Goku from the very beginning of the series to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he started pat-patting people's genitals again. If there is one consistent developmental trait of Goku is that he does gradually and naturally become more mature. Sure, he's still a silly goofball throughout, but he becomes more savvy and certainly knows how to be serious when necessary.

You communicated it better than I ever could've. Fans often misinterpret this to mean Goku must solely be solemn. That's not at all what his character was by the end of the run of the original manga. Goku exhibited childlike innocence, selfishness, and ignorance but he gradually matured as the story went on and as he got older (while still retaining those traits to a certain degree.) It was a progression of character and not a regression. What we see in Super is the exact opposite of that; it switches between exaggeration to borderline bastardization.

Moments like these—as brief as they were—were refreshing.

Spoiler:

[ABED]

He doesn't become more reckless. He's the same as he always was it's just the stakes increase and make it more obvious that he puts an unhealthy priority on battle.

There seems to be an equivocation with mature and serious. Nevermind not seems, that's what you mean. You know Goku is mature because he is Serious TM! Nevermind those scenes came off the heels of him letting Buu free because he indulged in a pissing contest with Vegeta. How is that maturity or progression of character?

I see no issue with that redrawn scene as he does get serious when he needs to like he does at the end right as he's about to go into battle against Freeza. It's like he has to be serious at all times in a battle for you to register it as him taking it serious.

He becomes more worldly but he doesn't mature that much. He doesn't have to pat girls to tell their gender but he's still fundamentally driven by the same things from beginning to end. That somehow you are all convinced this was is practically exclusive to Super is baffling.

That difference in Goku's characterisation doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you see it, no matter the point of view. Goku is older in Dragon Ball Super.

And? You assume that he'd be more prudent as he got older? His recklessness never resulted in anything that wasn't eventually made right again. Why change when there are no lasting consequences and he gets what he wants?

unless the progression of the plot requires he not be, in which case he's not

That's not a function of plotting that's a function of character. People are often inconsistent and hypocritical. Goku is very concrete bound. He'll let Vegeta go even though he knows it's wrong, but when he sees senseless death and destruction right in front of him then he will get upset.

unless the progression of the plot requires he not be, in which case he's not)

Not the same joke Grimlock. He didn't knowingly touch the alien's genitals. That's the joke, not that he still can't tell the difference. This isn't like Goku not having kissed Chichi.

he gradually matured as the story went on and as he got older

Give examples please. In what ways did he mature?

A lot of these misconceptions come down to cherry picking. "He was scared when he heard the Saiyans would arrive and were stronger than Raditz" and yet was excited to fight Vegeta then let him live to fight him again, "Goku yelled for Gohan to stop Cell" after giving Cell a senzu, "Goku lets Piccolo live to save Kami" after refusing any help so he could win the tournament even after all of his limbs have been injured.

[Matches Malone]

That image has become so iconic now. It truly expresses in the most accurate way what is so wrong about modern Goku.

I don't know what's worse, the way Goku's being written, or the number of fans lying to themselves that he's no different from how he was before.

[Magnificent Ponta]

That image has become so iconic now. It truly expresses in the most accurate way what is so wrong about modern Goku.

I don't know what's worse, the way Goku's being written, or the number of fans lying to themselves that he's no different from how he was before.

It couldn't possibly be that they actually think there's good reason to disagree with you, or anything - no, they're just "lying to themselves".

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Goku's personal characterisation between series (and really, ABED's making a lot of fair points), this kind of disrespect for a genuinely-held difference of opinion is, quite frankly, obnoxious.

[Matches Malone]

It couldn't possibly be that they actually think there's good reason to disagree with you, or anything - no, they're just "lying to themselves".

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Goku's personal characterisation between series (and really, ABED's making a lot of fair points), this kind of disrespect for a genuinely-held difference of opinion is, quite frankly, obnoxious.

Saying there's no difference between the 2 is like saying there's no difference between the colors White and Black. Some things aren't opinions, they're simple facts.

[Magnificent Ponta]

It couldn't possibly be that they actually think there's good reason to disagree with you, or anything - no, they're just "lying to themselves".

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Goku's personal characterisation between series (and really, ABED's making a lot of fair points), this kind of disrespect for a genuinely-held difference of opinion is, quite frankly, obnoxious.

Saying there's no difference between the 2 is like saying there's no difference between the colors White and Black. Some things aren't opinions, they're simple facts.

Everything written is susceptible of interpretation, and the position that at his core (whatever the tenor of the gags that attend him these days), Goku generally hasn't changed and his characterisation is overall consistent, is a perfectly respectable one. Dismissively giving out that it's 'crazy-talk' or whatever is tiresome in the extreme, and really damned rude to boot.

[Matches Malone]

Everything written is susceptible of interpretation, and the position that at his core (whatever the tenor of the gags that attend him these days), Goku generally hasn't changed and his characterisation is overall consistent, is a perfectly respectable one. Dismissively giving out that it's 'crazy-talk' or whatever is tiresome in the extreme, and really damned rude to boot.

I'm not saying you can't like how he's written, that's subjective. However, to say that modern Goku is the same as Classic Goku would be like saying Freeza has the same personality as Fat Buu. There's a line between subjectivity and objectivity, so saying everything is subjective is really saying we don't want to offend anyone so whatever one thinks is correct.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Everything written is susceptible of interpretation, and the position that at his core (whatever the tenor of the gags that attend him these days), Goku generally hasn't changed and his characterisation is overall consistent, is a perfectly respectable one. Dismissively giving out that it's 'crazy-talk' or whatever is tiresome in the extreme, and really damned rude to boot.

I'm not saying you can't like how he's written, that's subjective. However, to say that modern Goku is the same as Classic Goku would be like saying Freeza has the same personality as Fat Buu. There's a line between subjectivity and objectivity, so saying everything is subjective is really saying we don't want to offend anyone so whatever one thinks is correct.

And naturally, what you think is "objective" and what those who disagree with you think is necessarily "subjective". Other fan's opinions are silly opinions or lies they tell themselves to make themselves feel better, but, well, you're just talking facts, of course.

It couldn't possibly be that Goku has always demonstrated plenty of characteristics that he still bears in his current presentation that some fans legitimately emphasise as a significant point of continuity, or anything. God no, they're just being wilful, or something.

This is entirely what I'm talking about in my objection. Are there things that are different about his presentation? Arguably. Are there things that are the same about it, though? Certainly. The imputation of greater significance to what is consistent or what is arguably different in Goku's character is where interpretation lies: which has greater weight? And it's an honest discussion that's there to be had constructively. It's not a question of one side 'being objective' and those asserting the contrary just 'lying to themselves'. That you don't see how dismissive and, consequently, obnoxious that kind of opinion is, is totally gobsmacking.

[ABED]

Sure they dial up the joy of battle, like with the image of Goku getting ready to go into battle makes a good case, but to imply he doesn't make the same sort of decisions as before is refusing to see the evidence in front of your eyes.

You aren't claiming anything, you are just asserting. Please provide examples. I don't think that's a big ask.

Does Goku mature throughout the original story? How? Please provide examples.

[Matches Malone]

Does Goku mature throughout the original story? How? Please provide examples.

That's like asking if Goku got stronger, if you didn't notice him mature than honestly there's nothing anyone can say that will change your mind.