Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

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TobyS
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:52 pm

Goku falling for the monaka costume is obvious filler bullshit. It's not in the manga which means it's not a toriyama idea, which means you can't hold it against Goku and be taken seriously for doing so.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:55 pm

TobyS wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:52 pm , which means you can't hold it against Goku and be taken seriously for doing so.

You can absolutely hold it against Goku when discussing the Super anime.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:55 pm
TobyS wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:52 pm , which means you can't hold it against Goku and be taken seriously for doing so.

You can absolutely hold it against Goku when discussing the Super anime.
Ah my bad this mentions the title just says super but logically referring to the anime in this context.

Either way you should hold it against the silly Toei writers not Goku. It's WiS
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:07 pm

I don't see how being filler applies in this case. Unlike Toriyama's manga the anime is its own thing and not adapting the manga basically frame for frame and then filling up air time to not get ahead of the source material.

We have seen at least one good example of Goku being fooled before the monaka situation but as stated prior the reason for it feels unjustified.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 pm

Truthfully the premise of “Let’s continue to fool Goku into thinking Monaka is strong by having Beerus dress up as him”’ isn’t any more dumb than Chi Chi going “Even though I’m the one who gets groceries I need you Goku to get a driver’s license even though you can literally transport anywhere in an instant and I might as well have you do that if I’m going assign you grocery shopping duty”

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:18 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 pm Truthfully the premise of “Let’s continue to fool Goku into thinking Monaka is strong by having Beerus dress up as him”’ isn’t any more dumb than Chi Chi going “Even though I’m the one who gets groceries I need you Goku to get a driver’s license even though you can literally transport anywhere in an instant and I might as well have you do that if I’m going assign you grocery shopping duty”
And yet that episode is popular among the fandom.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:17 pm

In the days of DBZ Toei did a filler episode that Goku solved a puzzle by Tao Pai Pai to get the Dragon Ball. Solving a puzzle takes brains, but Goku was able to solve it.
In the filler scene when Master Shen attacked Goku when he was sleeping, since Master Shen didn't mask his scent, Goku knew his identity.

DBS anime they make Goku do stupid things which is not the problem, heck doing stupid things is funny. However doing it always again and again and again will get boring and annoying.

Master Roshi = Put a lot of effort in the manga and didn't do any mistakes.
Beerus and Monaka = Lot of mistakes were done and lot of obvious things.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:29 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 pm Truthfully the premise of “Let’s continue to fool Goku into thinking Monaka is strong by having Beerus dress up as him”’ isn’t any more dumb than Chi Chi going “Even though I’m the one who gets groceries I need you Goku to get a driver’s license even though you can literally transport anywhere in an instant and I might as well have you do that if I’m going assign you grocery shopping duty”
It never made sense why Chi Chi wanted Goku to learn to drive, if Chi Chi is the one buying the grocceries then it would make sense for her to learn. Then again if Goku didn't learn to drive, then Chi Chi wouldn't make food for Goku. Goku learning to drive is a new skill that Goku would have.

The whole Monaka thing is worse, since we know Goku sense of smell is extremely developed and his sense of ki could detect Beerus ki in the costume. Puar transformed as Beerus told them to stop fighting, even though it sounds nothing like Beerus.
Goku got near everyone and heard Yamcha spill the beans, when Goku got near he could sense their ki and their smell but no Goku couldn't figure it out.

In DBS in a Saga we have Goku doing stupid things and saying stupid things constantly, in just one saga alone. In DBZ Goku does less stupid thing in the whole DBZ than 1 Saga of DBS Goku.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:36 am

Goku can still make mistakes regardless of how well he can sense ki. He underestimated Buu and no it wasn't because of God ki.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Yuji » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:39 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 pm Truthfully the premise of “Let’s continue to fool Goku into thinking Monaka is strong by having Beerus dress up as him”’ isn’t any more dumb than Chi Chi going “Even though I’m the one who gets groceries I need you Goku to get a driver’s license even though you can literally transport anywhere in an instant and I might as well have you do that if I’m going assign you grocery shopping duty”
At the very least, Chi-Chi wants Goku to get a driver's license so he can live under the pretense of normality. The man is a super-powered alien and Chi-Chi wants to live as a normal human being. It's not a matter of stupidity or lack or practicality, but a matter of contrasting lifestyles. Whereas the Monaka episode, it is purely a matter of stupidity.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 am

Yuji wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:39 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:10 pm Truthfully the premise of “Let’s continue to fool Goku into thinking Monaka is strong by having Beerus dress up as him”’ isn’t any more dumb than Chi Chi going “Even though I’m the one who gets groceries I need you Goku to get a driver’s license even though you can literally transport anywhere in an instant and I might as well have you do that if I’m going assign you grocery shopping duty”
At the very least, Chi-Chi wants Goku to get a driver's license so he can live under the pretense of normality. The man is a super-powered alien and Chi-Chi wants to live as a normal human being. It's not a matter of stupidity or lack or practicality, but a matter of contrasting lifestyles. Whereas the Monaka episode, it is purely a matter of stupidity.
While i think that's fair Goku is also not that intelligent. Perhaps the show could've had shown Beerus covering his scent but being stupid isn't in itself an issue in this case.

The reason for chichi's demands were in character whereas the reason for the ruse on Goku is a stretch.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by Yuji » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:56 am

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 amWhile i think that's fair Goku is also not that intelligent. Perhaps the show could've had shown Beerus covering his scent but being stupid isn't in itself an issue in this case.
Goku may not be intelligent, but he is incredibly perceptive, especially when it comes to battle. The episode portrayed him as a clueless rookie. In general, I am not quite fond of the beat that Goku remains unaware of Monaka's real strength. The Goku from the original series could gauge his opponent's strength from a glance.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:01 pm

Yuji wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:56 am
ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 amWhile i think that's fair Goku is also not that intelligent. Perhaps the show could've had shown Beerus covering his scent but being stupid isn't in itself an issue in this case.
Goku may not be intelligent, but he is incredibly perceptive, especially when it comes to battle. The episode portrayed him as a clueless rookie. In general, I am not quite fond of the beat that Goku remains unaware of Monaka's real strength. The Goku from the original series could gauge his opponent's strength from a glance.
Not so true. He's not perfect. Goku has underestimated Vegeta, Freeza, and Buu.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:49 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:36 am Goku can still make mistakes regardless of how well he can sense ki. He underestimated Buu and no it wasn't because of God ki.
If a someone can't sense or doesn't know their opponent full power, then it is normal to wrongly estimate their opponent. Goku did say himself that Kid Buu wasn't taking the fight seriously and he was taking long to regenerate on purpose.
Plus Goku didn't know his Super Saiyan 3 transformation would be more draining when he was alive.

DBS Goku makes too many mistakes, while in DBZ Goku does less mistakes.

Goku didn't know that Saiyans could transform into great apes and Freeza he was suppessed, so not Goku fault for not knowing his true powers. However Monaka having the same exact ki like Beerus and same scent, yeah there was no excuse for Goku not figuring out.

Goku didn't know that cutting an Oozaru tail opponent would revert them back to normal, because that information was a secret to him.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:19 pm

super michael wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:49 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:36 am Goku can still make mistakes regardless of how well he can sense ki. He underestimated Buu and no it wasn't because of God ki.
If a someone can't sense or doesn't know their opponent full power, then it is normal to wrongly estimate their opponent. Goku did say himself that Kid Buu wasn't taking the fight seriously and he was taking long to regenerate on purpose.
Plus Goku didn't know his Super Saiyan 3 transformation would be more draining when he was alive.

DBS Goku makes too many mistakes, while in DBZ Goku does less mistakes.

Goku didn't know that Saiyans could transform into great apes and Freeza he was suppessed, so not Goku fault for not knowing his true powers. However Monaka having the same exact ki like Beerus and same scent, yeah there was no excuse for Goku not figuring out.

Goku didn't know that cutting an Oozaru tail opponent would revert them back to normal, because that information was a secret to him.
You aren't explaining anything I don't already know nor said anything that disproves the point that Goku doesn't perfectly estimate his opponents' battle power, you've proven quite the opposite.

Goku did know the Saiyans could transform. Raditz told him. And yes Freeza suppressed his power thus proving my point. Goku doesn't always know.

They exaggerated Goku's naivete for a joke. The more pressing issue is why the writers had the characters think Goku wouldn't push himself if he didn't have some being to motivate Goku to improve as if Goku didn't have plenty already that they needed to fake one.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:35 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:19 pm
super michael wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:49 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:36 am Goku can still make mistakes regardless of how well he can sense ki. He underestimated Buu and no it wasn't because of God ki.
If a someone can't sense or doesn't know their opponent full power, then it is normal to wrongly estimate their opponent. Goku did say himself that Kid Buu wasn't taking the fight seriously and he was taking long to regenerate on purpose.
Plus Goku didn't know his Super Saiyan 3 transformation would be more draining when he was alive.

DBS Goku makes too many mistakes, while in DBZ Goku does less mistakes.

Goku didn't know that Saiyans could transform into great apes and Freeza he was suppessed, so not Goku fault for not knowing his true powers. However Monaka having the same exact ki like Beerus and same scent, yeah there was no excuse for Goku not figuring out.

Goku didn't know that cutting an Oozaru tail opponent would revert them back to normal, because that information was a secret to him.
You aren't explaining anything I don't already know. You haven't said anything that disproves the point that Goku doesn't perfectly estimate his opponents' battle power. Goku did know the Saiyans could transform. Raditz told him. And yes Freeza surpressed his power thus proving my point. Goku doesn't always know.
Monaka wasn't hiding his powers, there should be no reason to think that Monaka is hiding his true powers. Freeza tells Goku that he is only using 50% of his powers, but Goku thinks that Freeza is bluffing which turns out Freeza was telling the truth.

Beerus using a cheap costume that is breaking and have the same ki as Beerus should be a red flag that isn't Monaka. Champa and Beerus are brothers, but they don't have the same ki.

The Monaka and Beerus costume there shouldn't be any mistakes from Goku. Getting the estimate wrong on suppressed fighters is normal.

I forgot that Raditz tells Goku how Oozaru transformation works. Although Raditz didn't tell Goku how to revert a Oozaru back into Base form.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:45 pm

Please stop telling me the plot especially when it doesn't prove your point. Goku thought Freeza was bluffing thus being an example of Goku not always being able to accurately grasp the depth of his opponent's power. Sacrificing a little bit of logic for the sake of a joke is hardly the big deal you make it out to be. It's an exaggeration not a complete break with the characters. What is ridiculous is the reason for the ruse.

The joke doesn't bother me whereas something like Gohan's sudden reluctance to fight or Goku not telling him his plan do bother me from a storytelling perspective. Neither play fair with the audience. The former was to up the drama but the emotion wasn't earned as his reluctance was out of nowhere. The latter is an example of characters keeping information from each other just for the sake of not tipping the reveal to the audience.

One is an example of exaggerating traits for the sake of a joke the other is being emotionally manipulative. The only reason I can't completely write off the scene of Gohan turning SSJ2 is because the performance and the music are incredible but as organic moment of dramatic catharsis, it falls flat.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:01 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:45 pm Please stop telling me the plot especially when it doesn't prove your point. Goku thought Freeza was bluffing thus being an example of Goku not always being able to accurately grasp the depth of his opponent's power. Sacrificing a little bit of logic for the sake of a joke is hardly the big deal you make it out to be. It's an exaggeration not a complete break with the characters. What is ridiculous is the reason for the ruse.

The joke doesn't bother me whereas something like Gohan's sudden reluctance to fight or Goku not telling him his plan do bother me from a storytelling perspective. Neither play fair with the audience. The former was to up the drama but the emotion wasn't earned as his reluctance was out of nowhere. The latter is an example of characters keeping information from each other just for the sake of not tipping the reveal to the audience.
You keep bringing up Freeza when Goku being wrong doesn't make him stupid in anyway. They didn't sacrifice a bit of logic, they did it constantly throughout DBS.

I know what you mean by Gohan, your probably talking about Gohan not waking to kill Cell, yes that came out of the blue. I agree with you about Goku not telling Gohan his plan.

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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:28 pm

I brought it up because you made an earlier point that Goku should've been able to sense Monaka's lack of battle power as though he is able to perfectly gauge any opponent. We've seen plenty of times where he didn't. This is a silly moment but not for the reasons you're saying and it's not an example of bad writing in Super. It's silly but not the example from Super I would point to as a cardinal sin.
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Re: Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

Post by super michael » Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:43 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:28 pm I brought it up because you made an earlier point that Goku should've been able to sense Monaka's lack of battle power as though he is able to perfectly gauge any opponent. We've seen plenty of times where he didn't. This is a silly moment but not for the reasons you're saying and it's not an example of bad writing in Super. It's silly but not the example from Super I would point to as a cardinal sin.
But Monaka isn't magical like Dabura, has regeneration like Kid Buu, have transformation like Saiyans, have God Ki like GoD or suppressing his ki, Goku should have been able to sense his power level accurately.
That is why it makes no sense to bring up Freeza who hid his power. Heck that was the whole point about hiding power level, so their scouter doesn't detect them or their true power.

When Chiaotzu slowed Goku down in DBS, he should have thought that Tien was doing something to him or Chiaotzu the same way that he thought Tien was cheating in the 22nd Martial Art Tournament.

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