Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?

[ABED]

None of that shows Goku being a pest is out of character. And he wasn't patient or impatient. He thought getting the girl was part of the training. Also Roshi gives him stuff to do. He doesn't just ask him to wait around.

And that's fair about him not forgetting things but I don't think that's so integral to his characterization that it breaks the story.

[super michael]

None of that shows Goku being a pest is out of character. And he wasn't patient or impatient. He thought getting the girl was part of the training.

And that's fair about him not forgetting things but I don't think that's so integral to his characterization that it breaks the story.

I just checked the chapter and Master Roshi tell Goku that his training isn't for free. Goku doesn't think that is part of his training getting a girl.
Check chapter 24 of Dragon Ball. Even though Master Roshi promised that he would train him the next time Goku comes to his island, he still did what he was told.






Goku forgetting senzu bean is not part of his character, since he has never done that before. Goku not being able to tell Beerus lie contradicts his 23rd Martial Art Tournament self.

Goku not showing emotion toward Vegeta dying is not part of his character, Goku getting upset that Zamasu killed Future Goten and Chi Chi yes. Master Roshi dying and Goku felt emotion that is who he is in the ToP.

[ABED]

I know the manga but notice that Roshi gives Goku something to do. He doesn't just tell him to wait around. He also claims it is part of his training. He uses the smack from the mermaid as a "teachable moment" so Goku does think it is part of the training.

Goku not being able to tell Beerus lie contradicts his 23rd Martial Art Tournament self.

How is that a contradiction?

Goku not showing emotion toward Vegeta dying is not part of his character, Goku getting upset that Zamasu killed Future Goten and Chi Chi yes. Master Roshi dying and Goku felt emotion that is who he is in the ToP.

Huh?

Goku forgetting senzu bean is not part of his character,

Also hardly core to his character.

[super michael]

I know the manga but notice that Roshi gives Goku something to do. He doesn't just tell him to wait around. He also claims it is part of his training. He uses the smack from the mermaid as a "teachable moment" so Goku does think it is part of the training.

Goku not being able to tell Beerus lie contradicts his 23rd Martial Art Tournament self.

How is that a contradiction?

I know what you mean now, that is my bad he didn't wait doing nothing. Your right that Goku thought it was training when Master Roshi got smacked by the mermaid, but before that he didn't think that was training.

Kami lied to everyone that the Dragon Balls would be around if Piccolo dies, since Kami would die also. Kami lied that if he dies that the Dragon Balls would be around and they can wish Kami back alive again. Everyone fell for Kami lie, however only Goku didn't fall for Kami lie.

Goku knew who was stronger between Tao Pai Pai vs Tien before the battle even started, no one knew who was stronger between them.

Jump to DBS and Goku has no idea Beerus is lying or is in a cheap costume. Goku doesn't know that Monaka is weak and he doesn't use his ability to smell their scent to know who is who. Goku hears their voice and gets near them but nothing. Yamcha claims Monaka was knock unconscious the whole time, but no nothing gave it away to Goku no matter how obvious it was.
Goku can sense their ki and in the costume it is Beerus ki but nothing.


When Goku saw the situation between Vegeta and Copy Vegeta, Goku was asking pointless question even though Goku knew Vegeta was on a time limit. He could have easily read Krillin mind to speed it up. Then Goku was wasting time by holding back. Goku knew Vegeta was disappearing but nothing no emotion.

[ABED]

Just because he didn't fall for THAT lie means he doesn't fall for lies? Goku never figured out Muten Roshi and Jackie chun are the same person.

Goku knew who was stronger between Tao Pai Pai vs Tien before the battle even started, no one knew who was stronger between them.

He didn't know how strong Kid Buu was even while fighting him. Freeza declaring he wasn't anywhere near his full power shocks Goku to the point he believes Freeza is bluffing.

None of this contradicts anything as Goku isn't perfect and DB never portrayed his talent for battle as infallible.

Then Goku was wasting time by holding back.

That is ABSOLUTELY something Goku would do and did do at numerous points. He's drawn out fights and let bad guys get stronger for the sake of a better fight even with a ticking clock and high stakes. His biggest concern was winning the tournament not saving the world from Piccolo.

[super michael]

Just because he didn't fall for THAT lie means he doesn't fall for lies? Goku never figured out Muten Roshi and Jackie chun are the same person.

Goku knew who was stronger between Tao Pai Pai vs Tien before the battle even started, no one knew who was stronger between them.

He didn't know how strong Kid Buu was even while fighting him. Freeza declaring he wasn't anywhere near his full power shocks Goku to the point he believes Freeza is bluffing.

None of this contradicts anything as Goku isn't perfect and DB never portrayed his talent for battle as infallible.

Then Goku was wasting time by holding back.

That is ABSOLUTELY something Goku would do and did do at numerous points. He's drawn out fights and let bad guys get stronger for the sake of a better fight even with a ticking clock and high stakes. His biggest concern was winning the tournament not saving the world from Piccolo.

Master Roshi was smart to mask his scent with cologne, since he knew that Goku can tell someone identity by his scent.
Then he was smart to get Nam to do him a favor and have Nam disguise as Master Roshi from far away.
Master Roshi as Jackie Chan was able to fool Goku by convincing him that himself and Master Roshi are brothers.
Remember this Master Roshi didn't just fool Goku, he was able to fool all his student minus Tien and Chiaotzu.

The issue wasn't Kid Buu strength, the issue was that Goku didn't know how being alive would affect his Super Saiyan 3 form. It was stated that Goku at full power would be able to kill Kid Buu, that was why Goku was charging his ki while Vegeta battled Kid Buu. But as we know Goku reverted back to Base. Goku had no reason to believe being alive would affect his Super Saiyan 3, seeing that Super Saiyan 1 and 2 had no effect.

In the 23rd Martial Art Tournament you have a point, however no one was on a time limit to die. Vegeta was literally dying and Goku saw that Vegeta was dying but nothing. If Vegeta wasn't dying then no problem it wouldn't be an issue and it would be in Goku character to draw out his battle.

I am checking the manga and Master Roshi never made a claim about brothers or mistake himself as Master Roshi, I am thinking of the anime filler. I also checked if Master Shen attacks Goku while he is sleeping and it is not in the manga, which means it is anime filler.

[ABED]

He flat out states he underestimated Buu's power. Goku says that he thinks he could. There's no reason to think he's 100% right about that.

He's battle smart but he's not infallable so him being right sometimes and mistaken others isn't a contradiction.

[super michael]

He flat out states he underestimated Buu's power. Goku says that he thinks he could. There's no reason to think he's 100% right about that.

He's battle smart but he's not infallable so him being right sometimes and mistaken others isn't a contradiction.

Your right that Goku says that he underestimated Kid Buu, however power wasn't the only issue it was his regeneration. Kid Buu could prolong his regeneration, which was bad since Goku Super Saiyan 3 isn't suited for long battle, especially with his high drain.
Lets not forget that in DBS they added that Kid Buu has God Ki, which as we know it only those with Gods or those with God Ki can see someone with God Ki. Goku in the Buu Saga lacked God Ki or God transformation.

However Monaka he is a ordinary being with nothing special. Goku sense Beerus in the costume that it was Beerus ki, but nothing didn't tip Goku off at all.

[kemuri07]

Again, the problem here is that you guys are ignoring context. Especially since the tone of Dragon Ball radically shifts and morphs throughout the franchise. The first half of Dragon Ball is a gag manga, so more of the cast's sociopathic tendencies come out for the sake of humor. This noticeably gets toned down once Dragon Ball becomes more of a martial arts/action adventure show, and the cast becomes more heroic, specifically Goku since he's the main character.

This is why context is important. How Toriyama contrasts Goku's behavior to that of other characters is an important aspect of how we're supposed to react to Goku. We like Goku because Goku's down-to-earth personality makes him more relatable to readers than the elitist nature of other characters; that is something that shines through even in DBZ. That's why can' t just pluck out individual moments because it misunderstands the actual problem here.

And that's Super is kind of a shit-show from a narrative perspective.

[ABED]

What context did I ignore? I know tone shifts throughout the show but it's not just one direction. How does Goku become more heroic?

[super michael]

Lets remember this Goku forgot 3 combat items in Goku Black, something that Goku never done before. Senzu bean, the urn to perform the mafuba and the talisman completely for the Mafuba. In the manga Goku only does 1 mistake which is he takes with him the wrong tag.

Anime DBS likes to exaggerate Goku. The manga Goku does gags and mistakes, but they are not exaggerated. The anime they try too hard to force Goku to do stupid things too much.

Goku vs Ginyu, when Jeice does a sneak attack Goku was able to react. In the ToP Goku guard was so low that he couldn't react at all, even though Goku knew the other universe were targeting him. That was brainless of Goku. In the ToP they had to keep reminding Goku to not let his guard down, something they didn't need to do in DB and DBZ.

[kemuri07]

What context did I ignore? I know tone shifts throughout the show but it's not just one direction. How does Goku become more heroic?

Seriously? Compare Goku when he first appears in the Pilaf arc to how Goku is during the Red Ribbon Army arc? Sure Pilaf is a villian, but again, because the tone of early DB is of a gag manga, Pilaf is less evil and more just as sociopathic as everyone else in the main cast. In Red Ribbon, Goku is clearly meant to contrast favorably against the Red Ribbon Army. Yes, Goku is fighting less because he wants to save the world and more because he's just looking for an adventure, but again, we're clearly meant to side with Goku because how Goku reacts to other people compared to the Red Ribbon generals is far more likable. Goku isn't a superhero, but he's definitely classified as being heroic.

That's why it's not as simple as just saying "well he did this here so it makes sense he'd do it here." There's a lot more to it than that--that's what I mean by context.

[MasenkoHA]

What context did I ignore? I know tone shifts throughout the show but it's not just one direction. How does Goku become more heroic?

Seriously? Compare Goku when he first appears in the Pilaf arc to how Goku is during the Red Ribbon Army arc? Sure Pilaf is a villian, but again, because the tone of early DB is of a gag manga, Pilaf is less evil and more just as sociopathic as everyone else in the main cast

Pilaf wants to rule the world. Even if our heroes include a country bumpkin martial artist with a monkey tail, a tempermental boy crazy teen girl, a sexual predator anthromorphic pig, and a kung fu bandit with social anxiety around women we’re still clearly supposed to root for them to stop Pilaf from making his wish. He’s not “just as bad” he’s worse even if he is horribly incompetent.


You could maybe make the argument that Oolong isn’t much better than Pilaf I guess

[ABED]

Lets remember this Goku forgot 3 combat items in Goku Black, something that Goku never done before. Senzu bean, the urn to perform the mafuba and the talisman completely for the Mafuba. In the manga Goku only does 1 mistake which is he takes with him the wrong tag.

Anime DBS likes to exaggerate Goku. The manga Goku does gags and mistakes, but they are not exaggerated. The anime they try too hard to force Goku to do stupid things too much.

Goku vs Ginyu, when Jeice does a sneak attack Goku was able to react. In the ToP Goku guard was so low that he couldn't react at all, even though Goku knew the other universe were targeting him. That was brainless of Goku. In the ToP they had to keep reminding Goku to not let his guard down, something they didn't need to do in DB and DBZ.

They are absolutely exaggerated. Let's not forget Goku bit Freeza's tail and Freeza's reaction was drawn like something out of Loony Toons.

Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it can't happen and as has been shown plenty of times, Goku isn't perfect. He has miscalculated in battle and underestimated his enemies.

[super michael]

Lets remember this Goku forgot 3 combat items in Goku Black, something that Goku never done before. Senzu bean, the urn to perform the mafuba and the talisman completely for the Mafuba. In the manga Goku only does 1 mistake which is he takes with him the wrong tag.

Anime DBS likes to exaggerate Goku. The manga Goku does gags and mistakes, but they are not exaggerated. The anime they try too hard to force Goku to do stupid things too much.

Goku vs Ginyu, when Jeice does a sneak attack Goku was able to react. In the ToP Goku guard was so low that he couldn't react at all, even though Goku knew the other universe were targeting him. That was brainless of Goku. In the ToP they had to keep reminding Goku to not let his guard down, something they didn't need to do in DB and DBZ.

They are absolutely exaggerated. Let's not forget Goku bit Freeza's tail and Freeza's reaction was drawn like something out of Loony Toons.

Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it can't happen and as has been shown plenty of times, Goku isn't perfect. He has miscalculated in battle and underestimated his enemies.

I was talking about Goku flaws and not the drawing or animation, Goku biting Freeza tail was a smart move.

A experienced warrior never let his guard down, something that Goku did 2 times in the ToP.
A experienced warrior can make mistakes like judging someone power if they have special abilities like Dabura magic or Kid Buu regeneration, plus thanks to DBS it was mentioned that Kid Buu had God ki which makes judging his ki hard or impossible for those who lacks God Ki.

[jjgp1112]

Goku knew the Androids absorbed energy, saw it happen to himself, knew he was coming down with a heart virus, and still spammed energy blasts anyway.

Experienced fighters make dumb fucks ups, including Goku in the originals eries.

[ABED]

Lets remember this Goku forgot 3 combat items in Goku Black, something that Goku never done before. Senzu bean, the urn to perform the mafuba and the talisman completely for the Mafuba. In the manga Goku only does 1 mistake which is he takes with him the wrong tag.

Anime DBS likes to exaggerate Goku. The manga Goku does gags and mistakes, but they are not exaggerated. The anime they try too hard to force Goku to do stupid things too much.

Goku vs Ginyu, when Jeice does a sneak attack Goku was able to react. In the ToP Goku guard was so low that he couldn't react at all, even though Goku knew the other universe were targeting him. That was brainless of Goku. In the ToP they had to keep reminding Goku to not let his guard down, something they didn't need to do in DB and DBZ.

They are absolutely exaggerated. Let's not forget Goku bit Freeza's tail and Freeza's reaction was drawn like something out of Loony Toons.

Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it can't happen and as has been shown plenty of times, Goku isn't perfect. He has miscalculated in battle and underestimated his enemies.

I was talking about Goku flaws and not the drawing or animation, Goku biting Freeza tail was a smart move.

A experienced warrior never let his guard down, something that Goku did 2 times in the ToP.
A experienced warrior can make mistakes like judging someone power if they have special abilities like Dabura magic or Kid Buu regeneration, plus thanks to DBS it was mentioned that Kid Buu had God ki which makes judging his ki hard or impossible for those who lacks God Ki.

I know what you were talking about and regardless of it being a smart move it was meant as a humorous over the top moment as conveyed through the animation.

Buu having God ki is not irrelevant as that's a retcon. In the original it is presented clearly as Goku underestimating the depth of Buu's power. He also underestimated Freeza. His mistakes aren't limited to someone having a special power and thank god for that. That just sounds boring.

As has been pointed out, even experienced fighters make mistakes. That's great. It makes them human and relatable. It reminds me of that episode of Buffy "fool for love". It's in season 5 so she's stopped several big unstoppable big bads and several Apocalyptic events, she gets stabbed by her own stake by a garden variety no name vampire. How did this happen to experienced Slayer? Several reasons - bad luck and after years of defeating overwhelming threats she grew a tad arrogant. She underestimated the inherent danger of her job and it nearly got her killed. Goku is a great fighter but also showboats at times, draws things out for the sake of a better fight, and makes plenty of other questionable decisions.

[super michael]

Goku knew the Androids absorbed energy, saw it happen to himself, knew he was coming down with a heart virus, and still spammed energy blasts anyway.

Experienced fighters make dumb fucks ups, including Goku in the originals eries.

The 1st Kamehameha he has the excuse that he didn't know that C19 could absorb ki attacks, but the 2nd time there was no excuse since he knew that C19 could absorb. Goku tried to pull of the 2nd ki blast, but he failed since he was too weakened. Goku continuing the fight even though he was weakened from the heart virus, instead of letting the others fight was dumb on Goku part. Goku could have let the others fight and then use IT to Chi Chi for the medicine.

Nicely done I agree with you, your points are spot on.

[ABED]

I've just finished rewatching the episodes with Monaka and I buy Goku being fooled but it's the reason for the ruse that feels like a stretch. This deep into the story why does anyone think that if Goku doesn't have some obstacle to overcome he won't push himself nearly as hard. And as if there weren't enough actual strong people in the multiverse.

[kemuri07]

What context did I ignore? I know tone shifts throughout the show but it's not just one direction. How does Goku become more heroic?

Seriously? Compare Goku when he first appears in the Pilaf arc to how Goku is during the Red Ribbon Army arc? Sure Pilaf is a villian, but again, because the tone of early DB is of a gag manga, Pilaf is less evil and more just as sociopathic as everyone else in the main cast

Pilaf wants to rule the world. Even if our heroes include a country bumpkin martial artist with a monkey tail, a tempermental boy crazy teen girl, a sexual predator anthromorphic pig, and a kung fu bandit with social anxiety around women we’re still clearly supposed to root for them to stop Pilaf from making his wish. He’s not “just as bad” he’s worse even if he is horribly incompetent.


You could maybe make the argument that Oolong isn’t much better than Pilaf I guess

Sure. But Pilaf is so incompetent that it never really feels like a threat. It's just a bunch of petty assholes being petty assholes to each other.

We only "root" for them in this case because they're the main character, but it's definitely not a showdown between good and evil. Red Ribbon Army on the other hand is a different story.