What are the odds of us getting 4:3 Blu-rays of the Bardock/Trunks specials?

[kei17]

It is possible Funi switched to getting tapes from Latin America starting from the move in-house in 1999, but this is simply not known, and since Funi clearly had film masters of all of Z and all the movies in 2008, it would logically make a lot of sense if these weren't new acquisitions, but instead were materials they had lying around from the early days.

This "getting videotape masters from Latin America" thing that I've heard for hundreds of times just can't be true because none of Funi's masters look like Cloverway's transfers. It is possible that they acquired some M&E tapes from Cloverway, but I don't think they actually did because Funi's M&E audio sounds very muffled compared to what Cloverway had. Also, as for the OG DB, Latin America recycled the videotape masters that originally came from Harmony Gold for the first 60 episodes, so it is highly possible that they had no access to the film prints of these episodes in the first place.

[Robo4900]

It is possible Funi switched to getting tapes from Latin America starting from the move in-house in 1999, but this is simply not known, and since Funi clearly had film masters of all of Z and all the movies in 2008, it would logically make a lot of sense if these weren't new acquisitions, but instead were materials they had lying around from the early days.

This "getting videotape masters from Latin America" thing that I've heard for hundreds of times just can't be true because none of Funi's masters look like Cloverway's transfers. It is possible that they acquired some M&E tapes from Cloverway, but I don't think they actually did because Funi's M&E audio sounds very muffled compared to what Cloverway had. Also, as for the OG DB, Latin America recycled the videotape masters that originally came from Harmony Gold for the first 60 episodes, so it is highly possible that they had no access to the film prints of these episodes in the first place.

I see.

Yes, I found this "Latin American tapes" thing quite suspect too, but I've never seen the Cloverway transfers myself to compare them to Funi's, so I was unable to really confirm it either way. Glad to have it definitively stated that they look nothing alike.

Chris Sabat did say in his interview with Geekdom that the only completed audio tracks they had for him to listen to (at least in the booth) were Spanish, so I do wonder how that enters into it if Funi's M&Es were more muffled than Cloverway's. I do remember Sabat noting that the M&E materials they received at that time were of very poor quality; he at one point stated that the Kikuchi music masters had a very, very loud hiss present that, in his mind as well as the minds of various others at Funi, made the Japanese score an unworkable thing to use. Though this does raise questions about the Pioneer dub, their DB dub, and their later remixes that added the original score to their dubs of Z and GT, so I do wonder if he misremembered that, or was lied to by someone else rather than finding this phenomenon himself.

[MasenkoHA]

I do remember Sabat noting that the M&E materials they received at that time were of very poor quality; he at one point stated that the Kikuchi music masters had a very, very loud hiss present that, in his mind as well as the minds of various others at Funi, made the Japanese score an unworkable thing to use. Though this does raise questions about the Pioneer dub, their DB dub, and their later remixes that added the original score to their dubs of Z and GT, so I do wonder if he misremembered that, or was lied to by someone else rather than finding this phenomenon himself.

That always sounded suspicious to me. I don’t want to call Sabat a liar (it’s possible as you said he misremembered or someone like Watson or Fukunaga lied to him) like Fukunaga straight up said “We made the decision to replace the Japanese music with our score we can charge royalties every second its used” so any other excuse “We can’t afford the Kikuchi score” was just that an excuse. And why would this problem only apply to Z but not the older Dragon Ball series where they kept the Japanese music as far back as 1998? And this wasn’t a problem with the movies Funimation gave Pioneer to dub over with Ocean Group?


GT I think Funimation has always been honest that the replacement music was done to help completely rebrand the show as an edgy action show for 9-14 year old boys because in their eyes GT was a failure everywhere else (which debatable but) You think you know GT!!!! At that point though they had kept the original music for 2001 Dragon Ball, Blue Gender, and Yuyu Hakusho so even at that point changing the music was more of an exception for Funimation rather than a rule

[Char Aznable]

Don't forget, FUNimation treats the Bardock and Trunks TV specials as movies - as in feature films - not as specials. Every casual fan outside of Japan also probably thinks they're movies. They'll continue to be treated as such, so I hope everyone has their butts clenched for the inevitable 4K UHD re-release of the Bardock and Trunks 'double feature' in glorious 16:9 (like a movie theater!) with extra filtering because it needs more filtering!

[kei17]

Yes, I found this "Latin American tapes" thing quite suspect too, but I've never seen the Cloverway transfers myself to compare them to Funi's, so I was unable to really confirm it either way. Glad to have it definitively stated that they look nothing alike.

They are different in multiple ways: framing, colors, dust, scratches, and so on.

Chris Sabat did say in his interview with Geekdom that the only completed audio tracks they had for him to listen to (at least in the booth) were Spanish, so I do wonder how that enters into it if Funi's M&Es were more muffled than Cloverway's. I do remember Sabat noting that the M&E materials they received at that time were of very poor quality; he at one point stated that the Kikuchi music masters had a very, very loud hiss present that, in his mind as well as the minds of various others at Funi, made the Japanese score an unworkable thing to use. Though this does raise questions about the Pioneer dub, their DB dub, and their later remixes that added the original score to their dubs of Z and GT, so I do wonder if he misremembered that, or was lied to by someone else rather than finding this phenomenon himself.

Cloverway had one of the most clear-sounding sources of M&E, and its copies sent to Brazil and Greece still retain good quality. I'm fairly certain that their M&E tapes only contained mono audio with music and SFXs already mixed down, which is because in an interview, the president of TAVAC said that they usually had not provided foreign licensees with tapes containing separate music and SFX tracks if there's no rational necessity since they wanted to prevent them from being stolen and used for other shows and movies without permission.

Funi has access to separate music and SFX tracks (in lower quality with loud hiss for some reason) because they probably demanded them to Toei with music replacement and extensive edits in mind. However, when they produced a new 5.1ch mix /w the Kikuchi score for the Orange Bricks, they used a mono mix of M&E for the first 20 episodes or so for some reason. This mix might be a copy of Cloverway's M&Es because it sounds better than those on later episodes and they had a chance to obtain it when they produced the UUE release which came with Cloverway's Latin American Spanish dub. This is just all my speculation, but they might have lost the music track of early episodes of DBZ after producing the first Saban/Ocean dub and they had to newly get the M&Es with the Kikuchi score which were ultimately obtained from Cloverway.

Incidentally, the DBZ dubs in India use separate music and SFX tracks that sound far better than Funi's although they seem to have imported the series from the US. I have no idea where they got their M&Es from.

[Lightningexpose]

Heh, I always knew the idea on this forum that Funimation didn't have film reels until it was time to do Orange Bricks (and that all they had were Latin American digibetas) was the most ridiculous idea ever.

Imagine...Toei putting valuable film reels at risk by internationally shipping ~300 of them for a mediocre transfer in the US, as if the technology to transfer film in Japan, and far more cost-effectively send digital video over, doesn't exist in 2006-2007... DBZ fans be wild.

And another thing I was always suspicious of is that, yeah, the Funi singles have a pretty unique look, so I could never believe they were digibetas from Latin America or anywhere else--not even from Toei. The only thing that ever threw me off, though, was how the first 30-40 episodes have the signature black crush not only on US releases, but on a lot of foreign releases too. So it did make me wonder if there actually was a connection between Funimation's DBZ source and some of the foreign sources. I was thinking maybe this is just the result of Toei's color timing for the initial color timed positives that they always duplicated thereafter. Oddly, though, it seems whatever video/film master the Taiwanese release had, their black crush only lasts for less than the first 10 episodes.

[Robo4900]

Heh, I always knew the idea on this forum that Funimation didn't have film reels until it was time to do Orange Bricks (and that all they had were Latin American digibetas) was the most ridiculous idea ever.

It's not particularly localised to this forum, it's a misconception among the fandom that generally isn't challenged, or even discussed, outside this forum.

Imagine...Toei putting valuable film reels at risk by internationally shipping ~300 of them for a mediocre transfer in the US, as if the technology to transfer film in Japan, and far more cost-effectively send digital video over, doesn't exist in 2006-2007... DBZ fans be wild.

You say "Valuable film reels"... Striking prints (or, indeed, sending old prints) for foreign distributors was a normal thing for them to do, to give their foreign distributors their video masters as late as 2003, when Funi acquired the last batch of Z.

Granted, you are correct that after that, they would have instead sent Dragon Box masters instead (and that's precisely what they did for Funi's masters of GT), for precisely the reason you cite, but the particular idea of "Putting valuable film reels at risk" is mistaken. As is the idea of Toei caring about whether or not it's a "mediocre transfer in the US"; if the licensee wants to pay to get some film, if they're willing to pay for the costs of striking prints and shipping them, then why would Toei say no to their money?

And another thing I was always suspicious of is that, yeah, the Funi singles have a pretty unique look, so I could never believe they were digibetas from Latin America or anywhere else--not even from Toei. The only thing that ever threw me off, though, was how the first 30-40 episodes have the signature black crush not only on US releases, but on a lot of foreign releases too. So it did make me wonder if there actually was a connection between Funimation's DBZ source and some of the foreign sources. I was thinking maybe this is just the result of Toei's color timing for the initial color timed positives that they always duplicated thereafter. Oddly, though, it seems whatever video/film master the Taiwanese release had, their black crush only lasts for less than the first 10 episodes.

Very interesting observation.

[kei17]

Incidentally, the DBZ dubs in India use separate music and SFX tracks that sound far better than Funi's although they seem to have imported the series from the US. I have no idea where they got their M&Es from.

Sorry replying to myself for an off-topic supplement, but here's evidence that India had access to the separate M&Es even though they used the Kikuchi score.

Spoiler:

[Lightningexpose]

You say "Valuable film reels"... Striking prints (or, indeed, sending old prints) for foreign distributors was a normal thing for them to do, to give their foreign distributors their video masters as late as 2003, when Funi acquired the last batch of Z.

Granted, you are correct that after that, they would have instead sent Dragon Box masters instead (and that's precisely what they did for Funi's masters of GT), for precisely the reason you cite, but the particular idea of "Putting valuable film reels at risk" is mistaken. As is the idea of Toei caring about whether or not it's a "mediocre transfer in the US"; if the licensee wants to pay to get some film, if they're willing to pay for the costs of striking prints and shipping them, then why would Toei say no to their money?

Yeah, I know once upon a time they did receive film reels—that’s my whole point for saying I always found the idea that they didn’t receive film reels and just digibetas up til 2006/2007 to be ridiculous.

It costs a lot more money to produce those duplicate prints than it does to create any video master so they are valuable and it’s not worth the risk to either company. Once upon a time it was the only choice they had, but in 2006-2007 this is nothing more than a risky, unnecessary investment.

I’ve not ever heard of an anime distributor getting a hold of film reels in the digital era via request or commission, like you say they could (as if you’re aware of any examples where they have). Your assumption has too much confidence to it if you really don’t know of any case where this has happened. I have seen foreign anime distributors commissioning new scans, but neither company took the risk of transporting film reels out of the Japanese film lab or requesting duplicate prints. They simply commissioned the Japanese film lab to do a HD transfer of the film and send over the digital masters. To think this isn’t the option Funimation and Toei would see as the most cost-effective in 2006-2007 but instead funi ask toei to send them film reels so they can transfer it themselves should sound ridiculous.

Of course it’s a mystery to me why Funimation actually did receive film prints since by the time they got DBZ, Japanese tv stations were mostly not receiving film prints anymore afaik and just videotape masters for most anime. Not sure exactly why toei couldn’t have just sent them those but I’m glad they didn’t because a lot of Japanese tape masters I’ve seen for anime had field blending and such, like the GT special. Maybe toei didn’t have the time to create tape masters of Z for anyone at all around that time, but for GT since the tv networks got tape masters so did foreign distributors.

[Robo4900]

Spoiler:

Incidentally, the DBZ dubs in India use separate music and SFX tracks that sound far better than Funi's although they seem to have imported the series from the US. I have no idea where they got their M&Es from.

Sorry replying to myself for an off-topic supplement, but here's evidence that India had access to the separate M&Es even though they used the Kikuchi score.

Spoiler:

Thanks for providing; that was very interesting!

Yeah, I know once upon a time they did receive film reels—that’s my whole point for saying I always found the idea that they didn’t receive film reels and just digibetas up til 2006/2007 to be ridiculous.

It costs a lot more money to produce those duplicate prints than it does to create any video master so they are valuable and it’s not worth the risk to either company. Once upon a time it was the only choice they had, but in 2006-2007 this is nothing more than a risky, unnecessary investment.

I’ve not ever heard of an anime distributor getting a hold of film reels in the digital era via request or commission, like you say they could (as if you’re aware of any examples where they have). Your assumption has too much confidence to it if you really don’t know of any case where this has happened. I have seen foreign anime distributors commissioning new scans, but neither company took the risk of transporting film reels out of the Japanese film lab or requesting duplicate prints. They simply commissioned the Japanese film lab to do a HD transfer of the film and send over the digital masters. To think this isn’t the option Funimation and Toei would see as the most cost-effective in 2006-2007 but instead funi ask toei to send them film reels so they can transfer it themselves should sound ridiculous.

Of course it’s a mystery to me why Funimation actually did receive film prints since by the time they got DBZ, Japanese tv stations were mostly not receiving film prints anymore afaik and just videotape masters for most anime. Not sure exactly why toei couldn’t have just sent them those but I’m glad they didn’t because a lot of Japanese tape masters I’ve seen for anime had field blending and such, like the GT special. Maybe toei didn’t have the time to create tape masters of Z for anyone at all around that time, but for GT since the tv networks got tape masters so did foreign distributors.

Yes, you're correct, and I wasn't disagreeing with you. It's cheaper to send digital or tape masters, etc.

But if Funi really wanted their own film, even if that's a really stupid idea that makes no sense, Toei would really have no reason to say no if Funi were willing to foot the bill for it all.
We know it wouldn't happen, but if someone is working under the assumption that Funi did acquire film in 2006/2007, as wrong an assumption as it is, the reasons behind it don't require any imagination.

To step aside from my devil's advocate position and explain myself for a moment, though, what I'm trying to do here is make a larger point; the assumption that Funi got the film masters new in 2006/2007 isn't so crazy to someone who isn't familiar with how this works. It's one of those little things that's clearly wrong if you've done the reading, but makes sense if you're the lay-person, as most people online are, which is how this misinformation spreads. For instance, it makes sense to many people to think of all the Canadian-recorded dubs as being handled by Ocean, even though that's plainly and indisputably wrong to anyone who's done the reading (the reality, for the record, is that Ocean didn't get involved in production until season 2 of Z, even though their studio space had been used for recording in season 1). It's a more intuitive understanding of the situation that many people assume without actually doing the in-depth reading to back that up. That's often how misinformation about things in general come about.

Even though the common misconception is wrong (and it absolutely is wrong, and it would be great if it could get stamped out, along with all the other blatant misinformation going around about Dragon Ball), it does make a lot of sense if you aren't well-read about how all this stuff works.

It's just a point I felt was worthwhile to make in this thread, even if no one posting here right now particularly needs to hear it: Not everyone is super well-read on this stuff, and that's okay, as long as those who spread the misconception are willing to recognise that their understanding is wrong, and learn the truth so they can get it right in future.
That's all I'm really trying to say here.

[Luso Saiyan]

Definitely not. It will be exactly what we got with the Spanish Blu-ray of DB; a shitty upscale of the Dragon Box master that, because it's had this filtering applied, they are calling a "New master" even though it's just the old master with some filters.

"Definitely"?!

There's no evidence that they will do that. The reality is that the specials (just like the movies) have been remastered and more likely than not Toei will provide the remasters to Kazé for the new release, which is exactly what they did with the movies on the more recent Blu-ray releases.

[Robo4900]

Definitely not. It will be exactly what we got with the Spanish Blu-ray of DB; a shitty upscale of the Dragon Box master that, because it's had this filtering applied, they are calling a "New master" even though it's just the old master with some filters.

"Definitely"?!

There's no evidence that they will do that. The reality is that the specials (just like the movies) have been remastered and more likely than not Toei will provide the remasters to Kazé for the new release, which is exactly what they did with the movies on the more recent Blu-ray releases.

At this point, stuff like what happened with the Spanish Blu-rays had made me cynical; I'm still convinced it will just be a shitty, DNR'd Dragon Box upscale.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Definitely not. It will be exactly what we got with the Spanish Blu-ray of DB; a shitty upscale of the Dragon Box master that, because it's had this filtering applied, they are calling a "New master" even though it's just the old master with some filters.

"Definitely"?!

There's no evidence that they will do that. The reality is that the specials (just like the movies) have been remastered and more likely than not Toei will provide the remasters to Kazé for the new release, which is exactly what they did with the movies on the more recent Blu-ray releases.

At this point, stuff like what happened with the Spanish Blu-rays had made me cynical; I'm still convinced it will just be a shitty, DNR'd Dragon Box upscale.

I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if that were to be what happens, it just seems like they take what's already been previously released there and run a filter over it because apparently like FUNi they see the grainless look as being better for some reason. If the Bardock and Trunks specials get a release on BD it wouldn't really shock me if it turns out to be just the Dragon Box masters of them but upscaled and de grained as you say.

[Javaki]

And one oddity in all this is the GT special, which either Toei lost the film for, or Pony Canyon neglected to transfer it from film, so every single release of the GT special that there has ever been has been sourced from the original, shitty videotape master.

Well, Kazé Germany at least claims they will use new masters for their upcoming German Blu-ray release of the two Z specials and the GT special. (ETA - according to Amazon - is 15 April 2021). I wonder if they really got their hands on a HD transfer of the GT special

Definitely not. It will be exactly what we got with the Spanish Blu-ray of DB; a shitty upscale of the Dragon Box master that, because it's had this filtering applied, they are calling a "New master" even though it's just the old master with some filters.

I just received my copy of the German Blu-ray release. While the two DBZ specials look like they are based on Toei's new 4:3 HD masters, the GT special looks a lot like a de-interlaced/filtered upscale of the very first German GT DVD release from 2003.

[dragonmagico]

Well, Kazé Germany at least claims they will use new masters for their upcoming German Blu-ray release of the two Z specials and the GT special. (ETA - according to Amazon - is 15 April 2021). I wonder if they really got their hands on a HD transfer of the GT special

Definitely not. It will be exactly what we got with the Spanish Blu-ray of DB; a shitty upscale of the Dragon Box master that, because it's had this filtering applied, they are calling a "New master" even though it's just the old master with some filters.

I just received my copy of the German Blu-ray release. While the two DBZ specials look like they are based on Toei's new 4:3 HD masters, the GT special looks a lot like a de-interlaced/filtered upscale of the very first German GT DVD release from 2003.

Yeah the specials are really nice. Not completely de-grained. Nice picture quality. Over all just enjoyable to watch. The gt special is just an upscale from the german release i think too. But considering the gt special film masters were lost and all that everyone got was a composite tape master, not much can be expected from it anyway

[Luso Saiyan]

Yeah the specials are really nice. Not completely de-grained. Nice picture quality. Over all just enjoyable to watch.

I'm so glad the hear that. I think I'm going to order it. Could you post some screencaps just to see how it looks like?

By the way, does it only include german subtitles?

[Javaki]

Yeah the specials are really nice. Not completely de-grained. Nice picture quality. Over all just enjoyable to watch.

I'm so glad the hear that. I think I'm going to order it. Could you post some screencaps just to see how it looks like?

By the way, does it only include german subtitles?

Yes, German subtitles only. Also, the eyecatches were removed, probably to avoid having to edit the German audio track

Here are some screencaps from Z special 1 https://imgur.com/a/3at5WYB and Z special 2 https://imgur.com/a/WMKC7ms

[Luso Saiyan]

Also, the eyecatches were removed

Damn it. Considering the quality it seems to have, I can live without the eyecatches. But it's a shame nonetheless.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Yeah the specials are really nice. Not completely de-grained. Nice picture quality. Over all just enjoyable to watch.

I'm so glad the hear that. I think I'm going to order it. Could you post some screencaps just to see how it looks like?

By the way, does it only include german subtitles?

Yes, German subtitles only. Also, the eyecatches were removed, probably to avoid having to edit the German audio track

Here are some screencaps from Z special 1 https://imgur.com/a/3at5WYB and Z special 2 https://imgur.com/a/WMKC7ms

I have the old FUNi singles and boy these releases look much better video quality wise, also the former doesn't have the eyecatches at the commercial points either but that's more because most of the DBZ singles in 2000/2001 lacked them and they didn't start being included until somewhere around the time the later printings of the Freeza and the Cell discs came out.