GT and misogyny

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JulieYBM
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:47 am

Definitely need more variety in the Saiyan women, too. I'm glad we got Caulifla and Kale but it's still an absurdly small number. Gine's depiction as being a non-fighting type doesn't sit well with me because it limits the variety and depth of her character to only be a domestic-type. Women have plenty of skills and interests!
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:55 am

Pan was never forbidden in GT, I don’t see the problem. There is no teasing with Pan and she even contributed in defeating Oceanus Shenron.
Pan was the reason Goku gained control of his Oozaru form and reached Super Saiyan 4.

GT there is no one forbidden from doing anything.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Trouser » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:59 am

Yes, we need more warrior girls. But not like Caulifla and Kale. They are irritating as hell. Give me more women but like #18 and like Videl before Super destroyed her.
As of Pan... I like her. I prefer GT version over some "girl version of Goku" that someone mentioned before.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:11 pm

Trouser wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:59 am
Yes, we need more warrior girls. But not like Caulifla and Kale. They are irritating as hell. Give me more women but like #18 and like Videl before Super destroyed her.
I completely agree, both of them (especially Culifla) are among the worst new characters introduced in the franchise. Both 18 and Z's Videl put them to shame.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:19 pm

Why exactly do people not like Caulifa and Kale? I’ll take them any day of the week over someone as terribly uninteresting and cliche as Jiren.

Or to compare to other female characters their schtick didn’t old fast like Ribrianne.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:31 pm

GT Pan is my favourite character in franchise so i don't think they did wrong to her. Sure, i would like to see her fight a little more and finally get super saiyan in Heroes at least, but i never felt they disregarded her as a character in GT as she was always somewhere around. It was the first time since Bulma we had female protagonist having such major role in series + unlike Bulma she actually was a fighter. We do not have many female protagonists in DB being real fighters, honestly i can only think about #18 and except for ToP arc she never played any big role as a protagonist. DB is mainly for boys and Pan was very young, so i think we still got a lot from her. I mean she could've ended like Bra in GT, being completely irrelevant character. Pan displayed a lot of potential and for DB standards was very powerful back then.

GT was just Goku's show which backfired on all characters and Pan was just one of them sadly. She is still second most important character in GT and got probably biggest character development in GT being rivaled by Vegeta and Goten only. The difference is, Pan got development during entire series while Vegeta and Goten were improved compared to Z but remained mostly unchanged for entire GT then.

So yeah, they totally could do better with her but what we got wasn't bad by any means imo.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:41 pm

This is entirely anecdotal but I've seen a number of people upset at how Caulfia is 'disrespectful' to Gokuu...but, like...so what? Gokuu doesn't give a damn and furthermore, do you really want to be a man who is upset at a female fictional character for captaining her own ship and forging her own path? Alright, those were some repetitive metaphors but my point stands. :P I get the feeling those fans just don't like women they can't control, which is is humorous since they're directing their irritation to women who don't even exist. I guess that just makes the lack of control all the more vexing lolz.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:41 pm
Alright, those were some repetitive metaphors but my point stands. :P I get the feeling those fans just don't like women they can't control, which is is humorous since they're directing their irritation to women who don't even exist. I guess that just makes the lack of control all the more vexing lolz.
I don’t want to tell fans who hate Caulifa and Kale why these hate those characters but there is probably something to be said that while 18 and Videl were strong female characters they never emasculated their men. 18 may be stronger than Kuririn and “wear the pants” but she is still the stay at home mom and stays behind while Kuririn goes on adventures . Videl may have been a firecracker who was initially aggressive towards Gohan but she still softened way up once a relationship started.

Where as Caulifa is incredibly disrespectful and short with Goku and constantly emasculates Cabba.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm

Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.

Chichi, 18 and Videl retired from fighting but so did Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi.. Hell even Gohan and Piccolo will only fight if they have no choice. 18 in her debut beat up Vegeta with ease and was said to have killed several of the male fighters in the alternate timeline and Videl was a pseudo crime fighter before settling down with Gohan. I don't see what's so bad about that.

In Pan's case, she was kid who often didnt understand the gravitas of the situations shed get herself into, like any kid when they're in over head, so she gets saved by her more experienced Grand father. Whats so misogynistic about that? Especially considering she helped beat some of bad guys (18 btw also had a hand in beating Super 17) and was the voice of reason for Goku to get his final push to achieve SS4.

18 never claimed to like fighting btw despite being powerful, which is why there's always price tag attached when she does fight.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:52 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:41 pm
Alright, those were some repetitive metaphors but my point stands. :P I get the feeling those fans just don't like women they can't control, which is is humorous since they're directing their irritation to women who don't even exist. I guess that just makes the lack of control all the more vexing lolz.
I don’t want to tell fans who hate Caulifa and Kale why these hate those characters but there is probably something to be said that while 18 and Videl were strong female characters they never emasculated their men. 18 may be stronger than Kuririn and “wear the pants” but she is still the stay at home mom and stays behind while Kuririn goes on adventures . Videl may have been a firecracker who was initially aggressive towards Gohan but she still softened way up once a relationship started.

Where as Caulifa is incredibly disrespectful and short with Goku and constantly emasculates Cabba.
I mean, yeah, I was directing that to nobody in particular (would take way more effort than I want to hunt down a specific comment). I think what bothers me is that singular side to the women like #18 and Videl in that respect. I'm glad #18 was involved in the Tournament of Power after not being involved in the battle with Golden Freeza, mostly because I feel like the battle with Golden Freeza is framed as a sort of "protect Kuririn's MANhood!" moment by keeping #18 out of the fight. Clearly, this wasn't about making sure she didn't die and leave Marron without a parent...because in that case, Kuririn should have stayed home.

With Videl, it just really irritates me that she doesn't get to fight because from an storytelling perspective, not only would it allow a female fighter to be involved in the plot it would be something relatively new for the series by allowing us to see how Videl's post-ki training style has evolved. Also, I just like the idea of seeing a woman like Videl who has multiple facets of her personality (soft, but also kickass) that reflect my own. :lol: Conversely, early Majin Buu arc Videl has always bothered me because she just came across as hiding her insecurity because aggressiveness and we never get to see that arc naturally progress to where her guard lowers as a result of her attaining peace-of-mind.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.

Chichi, 18 and Videl retired from fighting but so did Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi.. Hell even Gohan and Piccolo will only fight if they have no choice. 18 in her debut beat up Vegeta with ease and was said to have killed several of the male fighters in the alternate timeline and Videl was a pseudo crime fighter before settling down with Gohan. I don't see what's so bad about that.

In Pan's case, she was kid who often didnt understand the gravitas of the situations shed get herself into, like any kid when they're in over head, so she gets saved by her more experienced Grand father. Whats so misogynistic about that? Especially considering she helped beat some of bad guys (18 btw also had a hand in beating Super 17) and was the voice of reason for Goku to get his final push to achieve SS4.

18 never claimed to like fighting btw despite being powerful, which is why there's always price tag attached when she does fight.
The story and character designs do not exist in a vacuum. These are all designs made by real life human beings--the majority of which are cishet men--who all have an ideology to push and maintain both for their own personal reasons and to serve capitalism. You can be a 'misogynist' and never once call a woman a cunt, after all.

Furthermore--and I'm speaking as a woman who desperately wishes she could become pregnant but cannot--it's entirely misogynistic to essentially relegate the women of the series to simply being mothers and retiring them after they pop out some kids or that women must have children at all in the first place. It is an unfair asserting of 'traditional gender roles' on the next generation and one I've never taken to in my first-hand experience with the subject. Dragon Ball GT has a similar issue in how Pan is treated. Clearly, Pan is not old enough to be a mother, so she is relegated to being Gokuu's emotional labor device, constantly being stuck in a cycle of interacting with Gokuu, going through a rising action, then a climax and then right back to the beginning to repeat it all over again. Dragon Ball Super has helped with this in some regards by allowing #18 to participate--alongside other, childless women--in the Tournament of Power but it still doesn't make a dent in the deficit that the series needs to climb out of.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:51 pm

The paradox of Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla. Something that still makes me question why their haters hate them.

On one hand, in a shonen the most popular characters are the most badass ones, rightfully so. And it can't be denied that they, Kefla especially, are kind of badass. Especially Kefla, who required Ultra Instinct to be defeated:

Image

And yet at the same time some people hate them, and I don't think it's because they are disrespectful to Goku. Otherwise Vegeta or Goku Black wouldn't be so popular. I think it's because they are women. There really is no other reason. If it was a man who unlocked SS in 1 day (like Goten and Trunks) and who pushed Goku to use Ultra Instinct (like Jiren and Moro), then they wouldn't be nearly as hated by some people as they are currently.

I say by "some people" because, really, the vast majority of people from what I've seen don't hate the U6 girls at all.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:04 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:51 pm
The paradox of Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla. Something that still makes me question why their haters hate them.

On one hand, in a shonen the most popular characters are the most badass ones, rightfully so. And it can't be denied that they, Kefla especially, are kind of badass. Especially Kefla, who required Ultra Instinct to be defeated:

Image

And yet at the same time some people hate them, and I don't think it's because they are disrespectful to Goku. Otherwise Vegeta or Goku Black wouldn't be so popular. I think it's because they are women. There really is no other reason. If it was a man who unlocked SS in 1 day (like Goten and Trunks) and who pushed Goku to use Ultra Instinct (like Jiren and Moro), then they wouldn't be nearly as hated by some people as they are currently.

I say by "some people" because, really, the vast majority of people from what I've seen don't hate the U6 girls at all.
I don't like that Caulifla is female Goku and Kale is female Broly. And the simping was a bit much.

I won't say I hate them per se but I much prefer characters like Pan.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm

Caulifla isn't female Gokuu, though. She likes fighting but she's assertive and has a sense of superiority. Gokuu is much more mild-manner in comparison.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:08 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm
Caulifla isn't female Gokuu, though. She likes fighting but she's assertive and has a sense of superiority. Gokuu is much more mild-manner in comparison.
Whatever slight differences there are overall the package there feels the same to me.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.

Chichi, 18 and Videl retired from fighting but so did Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi.. Hell even Gohan and Piccolo will only fight if they have no choice. 18 in her debut beat up Vegeta with ease and was said to have killed several of the male fighters in the alternate timeline and Videl was a pseudo crime fighter before settling down with Gohan. I don't see what's so bad about that.

In Pan's case, she was kid who often didnt understand the gravitas of the situations shed get herself into, like any kid when they're in over head, so she gets saved by her more experienced Grand father. Whats so misogynistic about that? Especially considering she helped beat some of bad guys (18 btw also had a hand in beating Super 17) and was the voice of reason for Goku to get his final push to achieve SS4.

18 never claimed to like fighting btw despite being powerful, which is why there's always price tag attached when she does fight.
The story and character designs do not exist in a vacuum. These are all designs made by real life human beings--the majority of which are cishet men--who all have an ideology to push and maintain both for their own personal reasons and to serve capitalism. You can be a 'misogynist' and never once call a woman a cunt, after all.

Furthermore--and I'm speaking as a woman who desperately wishes she could become pregnant but cannot--it's entirely misogynistic to essentially relegate the women of the series to simply being mothers and retiring them after they pop out some kids. Dragon Ball GT has a similar issue in how Pan is treated. Clearly, Pan is not old enough to be a mother, so she is relegated to being Gokuu's emotional labor device, constantly being stuck in a cycle of interacting with Gokuu, going through a rising action, then a climax and then right back to the beginning to repeat it all over again. Dragon Ball Super has helped with this in some regards by allowing #18 to participate--alongside other, childless women--in the Tournament of Power but it still doesn't make a dent in the deficit that the series needs to climb out of.
It never made sense why women in Dragon Ball they quit training and fighting once they are married. Chi Chi they take it further she outrights hates fighting and training from the Saiyan Saga until Buu Saga in the manga, where did that hatred come from.

The same with Videl why would she quit fighting once she is married.
When Freeza came back to life and when to earth, why didn't Krillin stay behind to take care of their kid while C18 fights Freeza. C18 has got infinity ki along with being way stronger than Krillin.

Pan never quit training and fighting due to getting married, so that makes her different than Videl and Chi Chi. Pan was involved in the entire GT series which is a good thing.

Pan seems to mature in the Super 17 Saga, so that is a plus for her.

DBS anime has its problems like teasing fans to make it look like their characters will do something, only for X character to stop them. The reason they give as so stupid.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:08 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm
Caulifla isn't female Gokuu, though. She likes fighting but she's assertive and has a sense of superiority. Gokuu is much more mild-manner in comparison.
Whatever slight differences there are overall the package there feels the same to me.
'Slight differences', such as...having completely different manners of interacting with other characters, one of which being leading a gang of Saiyans, showing affection for her Sapphic life partner and...viewing herself as powerful and determined to conquer others in the arena of pride matches?
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:23 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:08 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm
Caulifla isn't female Gokuu, though. She likes fighting but she's assertive and has a sense of superiority. Gokuu is much more mild-manner in comparison.
Whatever slight differences there are overall the package there feels the same to me.
'Slight differences', such as...having completely different manners of interacting with other characters, one of which being leading a gang of Saiyans, showing affection for her Sapphic life partner and...viewing herself as powerful and determined to conquer others in the arena of pride matches?
So lesbian Goku?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:34 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.
The most literal meaning of a word is not necessarily the most accurate. It's similarly why relying upon the dictionary is often warned against. Especially for terms like "misogyny" which have broader sociological definitions.

Also what does it say about the series when her value is associated with her beauty and class?

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Chichi, 18 and Videl retired from fighting but so did Yamcha, Krillin and Roshi.. Hell even Gohan and Piccolo will only fight if they have no choice. 18 in her debut beat up Vegeta with ease and was said to have killed several of the male fighters in the alternate timeline and Videl was a pseudo crime fighter before settling down with Gohan. I don't see what's so bad about that.
Those women's career lengths hardly compare to those of Roshi, Kuririn, and Yamcha. Also the fellas didn't retire to a life of housewifing.

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
In Pan's case, she was kid who often didnt understand the gravitas of the situations shed get herself into, like any kid when they're in over head, so she gets saved by her more experienced Grand father. Whats so misogynistic about that?
It's misogynistic because Pan's a female and her Grandpa is a male. And there's probably a lot more going on with the Pan situation than just that one issue.
Last edited by MyVisionity on Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm

The story and character designs do not exist in a vacuum. These are all designs made by real life human beings--the majority of which are cishet men--who all have an ideology to push and maintain both for their own personal reasons and to serve capitalism. You can be a 'misogynist' and never once call a woman a cunt, after all.
Huh? while I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Capitalism, Why push such a negative narrative on a series you claim to love so much?
Furthermore--and I'm speaking as a woman who desperately wishes she could become pregnant but cannot--it's entirely misogynistic to essentially relegate the women of the series to simply being mothers and retiring them after they pop out some kids or that women must have children at all in the first place.
How does your biological draw backs make it wrong for the women in the show to tend to their motherly duties while their husbands go off and get the shit beaten outta them to keep them safe? I'm not seeing how that's spiteful towards women. If 18, Krillin and Roshi (all retired fighters btw) got killed during a fight, who's left to take care of Marron? Umigame? Why keep Videl around as a fighter, just for her to get killed by Boo or whomever and be the catalyst for Gohan having a cool moment, even though that already almost happened in the tournament. What's wrong with a woman being a positive emotional anchor for a man, when he needs it?

You also seemed to ignore when I said how Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha and Roshi are all retired martial artist, two of which have families that they tend to in a very normal way.
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