GT and misogyny

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goku the krump dancer
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:42 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:34 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.
The most literal meaning of a word is not necessarily the most accurate. It's similarly why relying upon the dictionary is often warned against. Especially for terms like "misogyny" which have broader sociological definitions.
Bruh, WHAT?! Why go against facts to fit your feelings? That's how folks stay miserable. How in the world can there be something MORE ACCURATE than the literal meaning to what it is.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
Huh? while I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Capitalism, Why push such a negative narrative on a series you claim to love so much?
Because I want to see the series I love improve. The Tournament of Power and Movie #20 had some really nice baby steps in this department, let's keep pushing it further!
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
How does your biological draw backs make it wrong for the women in the show to tend to their motherly duties while their husbands go off and get the shit beaten outta them to keep them safe? I'm not seeing how that's spiteful towards women.
That statement is showing solidarity with women who don't want children and how its wrong for a series with the reach Dragon Ball has to essentially shove down childrens' throats that they must fulfill such a role. I'm displaying a principled belief that one's gender and the operation of one's gender belongs solely to the individual. It's empathy.

Many parts of Dragon Ball say "women must retire from fighting, get married, have kids and take care of their families" and that's misogynistic. Men weaving the tapestry of a woman's life like that is misogynistic and using media to normalize that is wrong.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
If 18, Krillin and Roshi (all retired fighters btw) got killed during a fight, who's left to take care of Marron? Umigame? Why keep Videl around as a fighter, just for her to get killed by Boo or whomever and be the catalyst for Gohan having a cool moment, even though that already almost happened in the tournament. What's wrong with a woman being a positive emotional anchor for a man, when he needs it?

You also seemed to ignore when I said how Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, Yamcha and Roshi are all retired martial artist, two of which have families that they tend to in a very normal way.
Why does Kuririn have to fight? Why does Kuririn have to die? Why does Videl have to die? Why must women always be the emotional labor for a man in media, most especially in a franchise that historically sidelines women?

I've 'ignored' Gohan and Kuririn because:

1.) They're cis men and thus are privileged. Even in fiction cis male characters receive the same privilege as they do in the real world because that privilege is a normalized, unnoticed part of cis mens' existence.

2.) They come out of retirement anyway.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:55 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:42 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:34 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:09 pm
Misogyny is a heavy word that gets thrown around way to freely these days.. It literally means to "dislike or even hate women" which I dont see AT ALL in the series about fighting yet arguably the 2nd or 3rd most important character in the series is a beautiful, high class woman, who gets constant praise for her ingenuity.
The most literal meaning of a word is not necessarily the most accurate. It's similarly why relying upon the dictionary is often warned against. Especially for terms like "misogyny" which have broader sociological definitions.
Bruh, WHAT?! Why go against facts to fit your feelings? That's how folks stay miserable. How in the world can there be something MORE ACCURATE than the literal meaning to what it is.
Take away a person's feelings and they're just robots, not people. Feelings are what makes the world go 'round, even if you're claiming to be operating on 'facts' (hello, Ben Shapiro).

Like, women aren't stupid. We know when we're being given a shit hand by men--or sometimes other women!--in the many aspects of our lives. Misogyny isn't just me being told to go back to the kitchen, bigotry is woven into the system and norms and mores of a society so that it not only continues to maintain its power over marginalized people but also propagates through new inductees, like a cancer.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:56 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:42 pm

Bruh, WHAT?! Why go against facts to fit your feelings? That's how folks stay miserable. How in the world can there be something MORE ACCURATE than the literal meaning to what it is.
huh ? that happens all the time, it's literally how language evolves, the way we use them in common settings matters just as much as what the dictionary definition is. it's just words. literally is literally a perfect example of that.

also lmao at Facts Not Feelings. i love 2015 discourse.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:59 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:42 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:34 pm
The most literal meaning of a word is not necessarily the most accurate. It's similarly why relying upon the dictionary is often warned against. Especially for terms like "misogyny" which have broader sociological definitions.
Bruh, WHAT?! Why go against facts to fit your feelings? That's how folks stay miserable. How in the world can there be something MORE ACCURATE than the literal meaning to what it is.
Who said anything about feelings or going against facts? I was always taught growing up to not "give a damn what Webster says". In other words, you shouldn't accept everything that you might read in the dictionary, and that it can and should be challenged whenever appropriate.

True accuracy is not found in the most narrow or strictest of meanings. You have to operate within a broader framework to understand the truth and full scope.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:00 pm

Just a reminder that this series owned by corporations and they don't need your defense per se as they make millions of dollars.

That is not to say you can't have opinions but I feel it's important to note what exactly we are defending if we do defend. And that's a series by a well off company. They can afford a few licks their way.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm

JulieYBM" wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 pm
Because I want to see the series I love improve. The Tournament of Power and Movie #20 had some really nice baby steps in this department, let's keep pushing it further!
I understand that point 100%, it is good when fans want something to improve especially when it is something that fans like. I am confused with Movie #20, what movie is that one?

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
That statement is showing solidarity with women who don't want children and how its wrong for a series with the reach Dragon Ball has to essentially shove down childrens' throats that they must fulfill such a role. I'm displaying a principled belief that one's gender and the operation of one's gender belongs solely to the individual. It's empathy.
If the women were forced in the anime to have kids, then you would have a point. However no one in the anime were forced to have kids, I mean can you imagine Goku who thought marriage was food would force Chi Chi to have a kid? I bet you Goku didn't know where babies comes from.

Many parts of Dragon Ball say "women must retire from fighting, get married, have kids and take care of their families" and that's misogynistic. Men weaving the tapestry of a woman's life like that is misogynistic and using media to normalize that is wrong.
There is nothing wrong with getting married, having kids and taking care of their family. As for quiting their hobby or the things they like that is wrong. Like I mentioned when Freeza came to earth, why didn't Krillin stay with Marron, while C18 go to fight Freeza. C18 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krillin.
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
Why does Kuririn have to fight? Why does Kuririn have to die? Why does Videl have to die? Why must women always be the emotional labor for a man in media, most especially in a franchise that historically sidelines women?

I've 'ignored' Gohan and Kuririn because:

1.) They're cis men and thus are privileged. Even in fiction cis male characters receive the same privilege as they do in the real world because that privilege is a normalized, unnoticed part of cis mens' existence.

2.) They come out of retirement anyway.
When fighting a powerful opponent, there is always a chance to get killed. If they survive without any dead that is great, but if everyone dies then who takes care of the kid? That is why having 1 character survive is ideal than no one surviving.

Society would see it wrong if the father stayed at home to take care of their kid, while the mother went to work. It wouldn't matter if the father gets less money and the mother gets more money.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:18 pm

On the subject of Caulifla and Kale, I personally am pretty indifferent to them. I don’t dislike them, but I don’t particularly care for them or Cabba for that matter. Them being able to go Super Saiyan so easily isn’t really a big deal, because the transformation had long since been reduced to a joke anyway. I do think the “tingly back” thing is weird, and I don’t dig the “S-cells” nonsense, but that’s not really an issue with them specifically.

Also, I never understood this idea that Caulifla is supposed to be a female Goku. I never got that impression. Yeah, they both love fighting and getting stronger, but so does Vegeta. Caulifla is a lot more aggressive and confrontational than Goku.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:22 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:18 pm
On the subject of Caulifla and Kale, I personally am pretty indifferent to them. I don’t dislike them, but I don’t particularly care for them or Cabba for that matter. Them being able to go Super Saiyan so easily isn’t really a big deal, because the transformation had long since been reduced to a joke anyway. I do think the “tingly back” thing is weird, and I don’t dig the “S-cells” nonsense, but that’s not really an issue with them specifically.

Also, I never understood this idea that Caulifla is supposed to be a female Goku. I never got that impression. Yeah, they both love fighting and getting stronger, but so does Vegeta. Caulifla is a lot more aggressive and confrontational than Goku.
Just the subtle mannerisms, the glee and innocence for combat like a child similar to Goku. Power wise portrayed in a similar manner to Goku with constantly improving whereas Vegeta doesn't improve in that manner generally he goes train or does something significant to reach a higher level whereas both Goku and Caulifla just get stronger the more the fight goes on. The lower level of intellect as well.

Honestly the list really goes on with this. She is the epitome of what Goku would be like if they were a woman.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:30 pm

super michael wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm
I understand that point 100%, it is good when fans want something to improve especially when it is something that fans like. I am confused with Movie #20, what movie is that one?
The 2018 film. I really liked Cheelai and want to see her character and role expanded upon.
super michael wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm
If the women were forced in the anime to have kids, then you would have a point. However no one in the anime were forced to have kids, I mean can you imagine Goku who thought marriage was food would force Chi Chi to have a kid? I bet you Goku didn't know where babies comes from.
You're approaching my argument incorrectly. I am referring to out-of-universe. The people that made Dragon Ball chose to make those decisions and those decisions send a message to its audience.
super michael wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm
There is nothing wrong with getting married, having kids and taking care of their family. As for quiting their hobby or the things they like that is wrong. Like I mentioned when Freeza came to earth, why didn't Krillin stay with Marron, while C18 go to fight Freeza. C18 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krillin.
Yeah, I know that there is no issue with getting married and having kids, I've wanted to be a housewife (who still creates stuff, of course) since I was in high school. I'm saying that it is an issue that my preferred course in life is the only depiction in this franchise and furthermore, that that depiction is being used because the people involved in the leadership roles of this franchise believe that that is the norm and standard for women of a certain age.

Artificial Human #18 should be doing all the fighting now, anyway. Not only would it be feminist, it would be far fresher from a storytelling point-of-view and also give her more scenes for all the Sapphics to drool over.
super michael wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:11 pm
When fighting a powerful opponent, there is always a chance to get killed. If they survive without any dead that is great, but if everyone dies then who takes care of the kid? That is why having 1 character survive is ideal than no one surviving.

Society would see it wrong if the father stayed at home to take care of their kid, while the mother went to work. It wouldn't matter if the father gets less money and the mother gets more money
It's fiction. This isn't real life. The story is controlled by real life human beings.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:48 pm

I’m not particularly insistent on female representation in a story, but I always thought that the excuse Resurrection ‘F’ gave for keeping #18 out of the action was dumb. If the concern is over Marron becoming an orphan if both her parents die, then it would make more sense for Kuririn to be the one to sit things out, considering that he’s much weaker than #18. Of course, since Dragon Ball is a work of fiction, they easily could’ve had both Kuririn and #18 take part in the fight, and let someone like Chi-Chi or Videl look after Marron.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:58 pm

So Akira Toriyama has contempt for women by having his female fighters retire yet Bulma is involved in nearly every major story arc and comes out barely scathed every time. She's the most celebrated woman in the series yet she's not a fighter, she's super smart, how is that mysogynistic? She's had two kids and remains a top tier scientist.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:58 pm
So Akira Toriyama has contempt for women by having his female fighters retire yet Bulma is involved in nearly every major story arc and comes out barely scathed every time. She's the most celebrated woman in the series yet she's not a fighter, she's super smart, how is that mysogynistic? She's had two kids and remains a top tier scientist.
Nobody is saying Toriyama had contempt for women but the writing is sexist and a lot of that is just Toiryama being a product of his time.


And you really want to bring up Bulma?


Bulma who couldn’t think of a better wish than “boyfriend” (and before anyone says Yamcha he wanted the dragon to remove his social anxiety around women he didn’t want to just wish for a girlfriend)


Bulma who most of the gags revolving around her character in early Dragon Ball amounted to “lol girls have boobies”

Bulma who is written to be “lol temperamental women and their outburst amirite fellows?”


Bulma who the series doesn’t know what do with other than show Vegeta isn’t all that awful anymore and build gadgets for the plot?


That Bulma?


ETA: Admittedly I think the writing for Bulma got a lot better around the Android arc and definitely in Super.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:21 pm

yeah bulma after freeza is generally one of the better characters and she's really the only character besides krillin that toriyama Picked up after getting dropped in relevancy. she became a very likable character well keeping everything recognizable about her, who actually could add to the plot and have meaningful interaction with everyone. but i mean that's one character, who was written pretty horribly in the prior two arcs, just because end of the series bulma is a good character doesn't mean that dragon ball doesn't have it's misogynist moments.

honestly i don't think it's specifically a toriyama issue either, akane is one of the best dr slump characters (and easily the best non-norimaki one), and kinoko's just funny.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by KBABZ » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:36 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
Huh? while I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Capitalism, Why push such a negative narrative on a series you claim to love so much?
Dude, look at what website you're on right now. EVERYONE here has some sort of issue they have with the franchise in its homeland in some way. If you love something, you want to see it be better, so it's okay to have issues with it. For example, I'm the world's biggest Ratchet & Clank fan (or at least that's what I'm told), but I do have issues with how the gameplay hasn't really evolved since 2003 and all non-Insomniac media thinks the series is only good for cheap kids movie comedy.

Blindly following something no questions asked isn't a fandom, it's a cult. You can love Dragon Ball and still have issues with, say, its near-consistent portrayal of women, how it has and still uses sexual assault as comedy, the unimaginative transformations, Triangle Guy's drawing style, or even its reliance on the same exact tropes and story beats since Daimao showed up, and still LOVE many other things about it. Everyone here is like that.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:36 pm
What's wrong with a woman being a positive emotional anchor for a man, when he needs it?
...because the series does it in awful ways ALL. THE. TIME? Chi-Chi is quickly retired into this role after spending all the previous time pining for Goku, and becomes a very annoying Japanese doting mother cliche as her only character trait. 18 stops being a true combatant and instigator of the story the moment Cell shows up to use her as a fuel source, and in the classic works the focus of their relationship is entirely from Krillin's perspective. Videl is an incredible outgoing fighter foil for meek Gohan, then in GT and Super she turns into a housewife who could fool any modern viewer into thinking she's never thrown a punch in her entire life, and looks like a completely different character in Super.

Pan meanwhile is the daughter of Gohan and the granddaughter of Goku, and is shown to be incredibly powerful in End of Z with an interest in fighting that directly parallels Goku's early years. But GT is content to keep her as a support fighter who spends most of her time being, groan, the complainy girl character. And despite her fighting introduction in the manga, she is never depicted attaining any form of Super Saiyan (which, let's not kid ourselves, is an important milestone in a series focused on Saiyans who fight), which is something that Goten and Trunks (who are male) had a handle on when they were her age. You culd argue that this is because Pan has no interest in fighting, but that contradicts her character in the manga and is also redundant when Bra already fulfills this role.

And then there's this scene, in case anyone has forgotten how Toei likes to treat its definitely-not-underage women.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:58 pm

I also just remembered the transphobia in the Oolong chapters, the episode where Trunks pretends to be a woman and then again in GT #51. Talk about hating women. 😬
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:07 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:58 pm
I also just remembered the transphobia in the Oolong chapters

I know there was the scene where Oolong sees Goku’s junk and freaks out because “its the thing he hates the most” but I don’t know if I’d call that transphobic? It’s not like Goku identifies as female. The joke was Goku is too stupid to realize peeing standing up is going to rouse suspicion.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:15 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:07 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:58 pm
I also just remembered the transphobia in the Oolong chapters

I know there was the scene where Oolong sees Goku’s junk and freaks out because “its the thing he hates the most” but I don’t know if I’d call that transphobic? It’s not like Goku identifies as female. The joke was Goku is too stupid to realize peeing standing up is going to rouse suspicion.
"Man dresses as woman to deceive straight man, gets found out as Having a Penis" is a pretty common joke.

Not to mention hating penis is just stupid. The joke. Is predicated on "being gay and/or trans is bad" and "trans women are just men trying to trick straight men into 'gay' sex."
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:24 pm

I’m not positive that Toriyama in 1984 even realized what a trans person is.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:26 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:24 pm
I’m not positive that Toriyama in 1984 even realized what a transperson is.
*trans person.

Furthermore, transphobia like that was all the rage in films at the time. We DO know that he is an avid film viewer, too. That being said, accidental transphobia is still transphobia. You don't need intent to do something thoughtless and harmful.
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