GT and misogyny

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UltraInstinctRorikon
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:27 pm

In other words I was selecting one part of what Julie said cause I was concerned it meant people couldn't not be into...well that.

I agreed with pretty much the rest that the depiction there was problematic.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:32 pm

Oolong kidnapping girls presumably for sex is problematic. What he is or isn't attracted to isn't the issue.

And thanks for clarifying.

Anyway, I guess Pan's inclusion and role in GT makes the issues of misogyny more in your face but the lack of female characters who contribute to the story in a meaningful way as more than a baby maker was something that was always there.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm

Which chapter is this anyway?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm

Having a penis does not make someone a man, but you can’t dictate what parts of the body a person is sexually attracted to. Genitalia is a major factor when it comes to sex, and Oolong clearly isn’t interested girls for their personalities. As has been mentioned, he’s a scumbag anyway.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:35 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm
Which chapter is this anyway?
The Oolong chapter? I don't know the exact number but it's the very first arc in Dragon Ball. It's shortly after Goku and Bulma meet and begin searching for the DB's.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:39 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:35 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm
Which chapter is this anyway?
The Oolong chapter? I don't know the exact number but it's the very first arc in Dragon Ball. It's shortly after Goku and Bulma meet and begin searching for the DB's.
I'll see if shonen jump has it. I was actually just starting to rewatch the Dragon Ball anime but generally when I look at what's said I like to look at the manga since it's the more accurate part.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:33 pm
Which chapter is this anyway?
Chapter 5 and 6

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_(series)

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:45 pm

Should I rename this topic to being about misogyny and other problematic things about Dragon Ball in general?

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:58 pm
So Akira Toriyama has contempt for women by having his female fighters retire yet Bulma is involved in nearly every major story arc and comes out barely scathed every time. She's the most celebrated woman in the series yet she's not a fighter, she's super smart, how is that mysogynistic? She's had two kids and remains a top tier scientist.
Nobody is saying Toriyama had contempt for women but the writing is sexist and a lot of that is just Toiryama being a product of his time.


And you really want to bring up Bulma?


Bulma who couldn’t think of a better wish than “boyfriend” (and before anyone says Yamcha he wanted the dragon to remove his social anxiety around women he didn’t want to just wish for a girlfriend)


Bulma who most of the gags revolving around her character in early Dragon Ball amounted to “lol girls have boobies”

Bulma who is written to be “lol temperamental women and their outburst amirite fellows?”


Bulma who the series doesn’t know what do with other than show Vegeta isn’t all that awful anymore and build gadgets for the plot?


That Bulma?


ETA: Admittedly I think the writing for Bulma got a lot better around the Android arc and definitely in Super.
Don't most 16 year old girls fawn for their ideal boyfriend? Seems pretty normal to me.

What' s wrong with being the "Gadget Girl"? She cant punch a hole through the planet like her "Stay at Home Husband ", but she can build the machine to fix it, and she has world wide praise and respect because of it. So what, that she's some what attitiudish and vulgar, plenty of women to tend to be that way, some of which are in our own families.

These characters aren't perfect and that's what makes them who they are. Dragon Ball isn't above criticism, of course not but I find it a bit odd when folks feel like they gotta throw their social issues onto a piece art to create problems that aren't there. Case in Point Oolong was kidnapping the girls sure, but the twist was the he was giving them a luxurious place to stay but we forget about that part because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:29 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm

Don't most 16 year old girls fawn for their ideal boyfriend? Seems pretty normal to me.
It’s not that she’s boy crazy its that she literally can’t think of a better wish than “boyfriend”
What' s wrong with being the "Gadget Girl"? She cant punch a hole through the planet like her "Stay at Home Husband ", but she can build the machine to fix it, and she has world wide praise and respect because of it.
There’s nothing wrong with being the gadget girl but the story rarely knows what to do with her outside of that.

She goes to Namek with Gohan and Kuririn and does absolutely nothing.

Vegeta and Trunks relationship is developed, Trunks and Bulma’s is not and Bulma is just a convenient baby maker for Vegeta as far as the narrative is concerned.


So what, that she's some what attitiudish and vulgar, plenty of women to tend to be that way, some of which are in our own families.
People can be vulgar and have attitude but Bulma really didn’t have much character outside of that. She’s a caricature especially at that point.
because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
He drugged Bulma to feel her up so....

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:42 pm

Read a few translations of the chapters and I'll admit the imagery is uncomfortable due the parallels with people abusing trans women and killing them when finding out. Though I'll admit this isn't a scene intended to be transphobic. Just seems a product of the time not weighing the other variables that weren't as mainstream at the time.

The Viz translation improves the scene a bit and makes it less problematic at least.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:25 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:27 pm
In other words I was selecting one part of what Julie said cause I was concerned it meant people couldn't not be into...well that.

I agreed with pretty much the rest that the depiction there was problematic.
Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough, but I'm referring to the process of a romantic relationship, which obvious does not require any sort of sexual attraction at all. Oolong's "eww, pp" Comment is due to his equating pp with manhood, which is just not the point.

Furthermore, yeah, if you're going to not date a person because they retain their genitals you are indeed being transphobic by coveting genital importance. Then again, not trans person is likely dumb enough to be attracted to someone like that anyway...
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:30 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Case in Point Oolong was kidnapping the girls sure, but the twist was the he was giving them a luxurious place to stay but we forget about that part because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
It's not a made up idea. The story is setting up the audience to believe Oolong is kidnapping the girls to have his way with them in some way. Then in classic Toriyama fashion he turns it on its head. Oolong is kidnapping them but all is not as it seems. The girls have HIM wrapped around their fingers and are forcing him to keep up their luxurious lifestyle. It's only a joke because we're expecting the opposite.
Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough, but I'm referring to the process of a romantic relationship, which obvious does not require any sort of sexual attraction at all.
That's not obvious and it almost always does include sexual attraction.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:30 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Case in Point Oolong was kidnapping the girls sure, but the twist was the he was giving them a luxurious place to stay but we forget about that part because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
It's not a made up idea. The story is setting up the audience to believe Oolong is kidnapping the girls to have his way with them in some way. Then in classic Toriyama fashion he turns it on its head. Oolong is kidnapping them but all is not as it seems. The girls have HIM wrapped around their fingers and are forcing him to keep up their luxurious lifestyle. It's only a joke because we're expecting the opposite.
Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough, but I'm referring to the process of a romantic relationship, which obvious does not require any sort of sexual attraction at all.
That's not obvious and it almost always does include sexual attraction.
Ace people still date and get married.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by ABED » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:51 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 pm
Ace people still date and get married.
Hence most, but for most people sexual attraction very important. This isn't a judgement one way or the other, just statement of fact.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:30 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Case in Point Oolong was kidnapping the girls sure, but the twist was the he was giving them a luxurious place to stay but we forget about that part because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
It's not a made up idea. The story is setting up the audience to believe Oolong is kidnapping the girls to have his way with them in some way. Then in classic Toriyama fashion he turns it on its head. Oolong is kidnapping them but all is not as it seems. The girls have HIM wrapped around their fingers and are forcing him to keep up their luxurious lifestyle. It's only a joke because we're expecting the opposite.
Sure, I can give you that the pretenses implied that he was having his way with the girls he kidnapped but due to the fact that its built up to a funny twist I cant see how that's a sign of misogyny, it's not like anyone in universe was saying that what he was doing was acceptable and i'm sure we'd all be hard pressed to find a real life kidnapper that said Oolong from Dragon Ball inspired them to force themselves on women and abduct them.

That being said, is it an expensive joke? sure, is it Raunchy? absolutely but that's the type of author Toriyama is. He's not some some psuedo activist of "Progressive" ideals that floods his stories with propaganda. Granted that doesnt mean its okay for General Blue to be drooling over a little kid but that also doesnt mean just because Goku pats a girl on the crotch to identify her sex that Toriyama is indirectly sending hate messages about women to young boys. You gotta remember the target audience here, is teenage boys with raging hormones who're most likely too shy to approach the girl they like, so they get a small kick outta "Poffu Poffu" jokes. That's like me claiming that the guys in Fruits Basket are "Too Soft" despite that series being aimed at teenage girls who dream about their wedding day.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:29 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm

Don't most 16 year old girls fawn for their ideal boyfriend? Seems pretty normal to me.
It’s not that she’s boy crazy its that she literally can’t think of a better wish than “boyfriend”
What' s wrong with being the "Gadget Girl"? She cant punch a hole through the planet like her "Stay at Home Husband ", but she can build the machine to fix it, and she has world wide praise and respect because of it.
There’s nothing wrong with being the gadget girl but the story rarely knows what to do with her outside of that.

She goes to Namek with Gohan and Kuririn and does absolutely nothing.

Vegeta and Trunks relationship is developed, Trunks and Bulma’s is not and Bulma is just a convenient baby maker for Vegeta as far as the narrative is concerned.


So what, that she's some what attitiudish and vulgar, plenty of women to tend to be that way, some of which are in our own families.
People can be vulgar and have attitude but Bulma really didn’t have much character outside of that. She’s a caricature especially at that point.
because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
He drugged Bulma to feel her up so....
What do you expect a 16 year old city girl to wish for? Ending world hunger?

Part of Dragon Ball's core is fighting, Bulma isn't a fighter, she creates conveniences for the fighters and she's an emotional anchor for Vegeta at this point but what more do you want her to do? She's about as involved as any non fighter can really be.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Thanos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:32 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:30 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Case in Point Oolong was kidnapping the girls sure, but the twist was the he was giving them a luxurious place to stay but we forget about that part because we're too focused on the made up idea that he was raping them.
It's not a made up idea. The story is setting up the audience to believe Oolong is kidnapping the girls to have his way with them in some way. Then in classic Toriyama fashion he turns it on its head. Oolong is kidnapping them but all is not as it seems. The girls have HIM wrapped around their fingers and are forcing him to keep up their luxurious lifestyle. It's only a joke because we're expecting the opposite.
Maybe my wording wasn't clear enough, but I'm referring to the process of a romantic relationship, which obvious does not require any sort of sexual attraction at all.
That's not obvious and it almost always does include sexual attraction.
Hmm, maybe it's my 10-year-old kid perspective and filter on the issue (as old as I was when first exposed to the series), but it never occured to me his intentions were sexual. I still don't feel particularly comfortable with that interpretation because at no point is it implied as such unless you read into it, especially given that they're kids. There's plenty of fairy tales and stories involving kids being captured, are we to assume those involve sexual implications? That's how I look at it. Oolong is a pervert, but I don't think it's related. He always seems interested in grown women, so I don't know. This may be an old series from a different culture, but that doesn't mean anything goes, including pedophilia. It was mostly in good spirit at the time.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:06 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:25 pm
Furthermore, yeah, if you're going to not date a person because they retain their genitals you are indeed being transphobic by coveting genital importance. Then again, not trans person is likely dumb enough to be attracted to someone like that anyway...
If I were to be quite frank, switches and bottoms might come to that conclusion but a lot of tops don't like wangs, just how it be.

Though I might need to reread the rules just incase I'm being too explicit in my terminology here.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Jord » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:28 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:51 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:25 pm
Ace people still date and get married.
Hence most, but for most people sexual attraction very important. This isn't a judgement one way or the other, just statement of fact.
Reproduction is hardwired in our brains for millions of years. Sexual attraction is an important part of that. You're not easily gonna reproduce with someone you're not sexually attracted too. That's just life.

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