GT and misogyny

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:48 am

Yeah I can definitely see the transphobia in that Oolong sequence. In the manga, at least. And no, it's not as simple as Oolong not being attracted to guys.

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 pm
Granted that doesnt mean its okay for General Blue to be drooling over a little kid but that also doesnt mean just because Goku pats a girl on the crotch to identify her sex that Toriyama is indirectly sending hate messages about women to young boys.
Actually that's exactly what it means. Toriyama is indeed sending out those messages, about not only cis women, but probably trans women also.
Last edited by MyVisionity on Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Jord » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:54 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:48 am
Yeah I can definitely see the transphobia in that Oolong sequence. In the manga, at least. And no, it's not as simple as Oolong not being attracted to guys.

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 pm
Granted that doesnt mean its okay for General Blue to be drooling over a little kid but that also doesnt mean just because Goku pats a girl on the crotch to identify her sex that Toriyama is indirectly sending hate messages about women to young boys.
Actually that's exactly what it means. Toriyama is indeed sending out those messages, about not only women, but probably trans women also.
You're absolutely right! I'm sure Toriyama thought about hating trans people instead of making a joke about the fact that Goku has never ever seen a women and doesn't grasp the concept that women don't have a penis like he does, akin to the his style of dirty humor he's used before. I'm so glad he's finally called out for this!

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Kinokima » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:29 am

Pan’s role as the damsel in distress is one of the many things that annoy me about GT

But yes all of DB as a whole is pretty sexist. From Master Roshi antics being played for laughs to practically every female character once they get married being regulated to a house wife (except Bulma). Nothing wrong with being a house wife but there can be some variety.

Characters like Caulifla and Kale and even Ribrianne were a step in the right direction. And 18 got some nice moments in the tournament too.

But overall yes Dragon Ball is problematic in this sense

Edit: Though I will say another positive thing for DB once you get to the Z portion it does have a lot less obnoxious fanservice than a lot of other action shounen series. In fact the only characters losing clothes tend to be Goku & Vegeta.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:10 am

Jord wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:54 am
You're absolutely right! I'm sure Toriyama thought about hating trans people instead of making a joke about the fact that Goku has never ever seen a women and doesn't grasp the concept that women don't have a penis like he does, akin to the his style of dirty humor he's used before. I'm so glad he's finally called out for this!
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:41 am

In the manga we are told that Bulma is the first female person that Goku has seen in his entire life, Goku didn't know the difference between a man and a woman.

In science class we learn the difference between a boy and a girl and how our parts are different.

Female = has chance to reproduce with Male.
Male = has chance to reproduce with Female.
Male changed to Female = 100% impossible to reproduce, there never been a case of someone being able to reproduce
Female to Male = 100% impossible to reproduce, there never been a case of someone being able to reproduce

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:52 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:52 pm
It's ill-fitting for me. Dragon Ball is not a bedtime story. And "laid-back old man" is not how I would describe Yanami's narrator. To me he sounds like the kind of uncle that shows up to the birthday party with loads of fruit punch soda and stuffs himself with pizza and ice cream, or takes you out on his boat at the lake in the summer and goes skinny dipping or something.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by precita » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:59 am

I feel like most 90's era anime didn't treat female characters in shows aimed at boys well, like shonens or kids anime.

Another popular example is Misty from the Pokemon anime. During the first few seasons she was fine, she was outspoken and had a temper and both argued with Ash and was good friends with him. Then as Pokemon went on Misty got relegated to the background more and more to the point where the writers barely did anything with her, and then of course she's written off the anime entirely shortly after that.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by super michael » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:16 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:52 am
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -mcconnell

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Thanks for the link, I can't believe that was possible.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:40 am

super michael wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:16 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:52 am
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -mcconnell

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Thanks for the link, I can't believe that was possible.
Plenty of trans men still have kids with their uteruses. Additionally, plenty trans women use their penises to have kids, too. This is both pre and post-HRT, whether men, women or enby. Heck, one can so freeze sperm early on in transition in case one ever needs to use it.

Furthermore, it's not like one needs to be on HRT to be their actual gender, either.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Jord » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:07 pm

precita wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:59 am
I feel like most 90's era anime didn't treat female characters in shows aimed at boys well, like shonens or kids anime.

Another popular example is Misty from the Pokemon anime. During the first few seasons she was fine, she was outspoken and had a temper and both argued with Ash and was good friends with him. Then as Pokemon went on Misty got relegated to the background more and more to the point where the writers barely did anything with her, and then of course she's written off the anime entirely shortly after that.
That being said, they did treat Gym Leaders Erika and especially Sabrina very well. Add to that the cameos of Lorelei and you have some fine female characters.
KBABZ wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:10 am
Jord wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:54 am
You're absolutely right! I'm sure Toriyama thought about hating trans people instead of making a joke about the fact that Goku has never ever seen a women and doesn't grasp the concept that women don't have a penis like he does, akin to the his style of dirty humor he's used before. I'm so glad he's finally called out for this!
If you're not mindful of the problem, you're propagating the problem, is what we're saying.
There's a difference between being mindful of a problem and going so deep into the rabbit hole that you see the problem everywhere, even in places where it doesn't exist.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:24 pm

Jord wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:07 pm


That being said, they did treat Gym Leaders Erika and especially Sabrina very well. Add to that the cameos of Lorelei and you have some fine female characters.

Unless any of those characters appeared in one of the post-original series shows none of those 3 appeared in more than 2 episodes so that’s incredibly piss poor argument. Especially since only one of those 3 had anything resembling actual character (which is more Pokemon on the whole and not female specific)

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Trans people have existed forever. It's not like we're some new revelation of the modern era. We see in the depiction of gay men as creepy villains and predators in Dragon Ball that Toriyama doesn't have qualms with not just queer-coding villains but also making villains outright queer to increase 'ick factor'. That's where his undeniable intentional homophobia comes into play.

The Oolong thing is transphobic and ignorant, showing a real misunderstanding of gender. It also plays on the trope of 'men in dresses' as deceivers. It shows that when writing for a big company's kids magazine Toriyama couldn't be bothered to think about what message he could be sending and that really sucks.

Trans people always have to Google whether or not a series or film hates us before we watch it and it's a really exhausting thing, especially if we wind up seeing content that disparages us unintentionally. Just...soul draining.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Dragon Ball isn't above criticism, of course not but I find it a bit odd when folks feel like they gotta throw their social issues onto a piece art to create problems that aren't there.
I think several of the people in this thread have adequately pointed out the problems that are very much there and the negative attitudes they (intentionally or not) play into.

You come off like you flat out don't care about these issues because they don't affect you; and since they don't affect you, they don't matter enough to even acknowledge as issues in your eyes. I'm not gay or trans, but I'm not going to begrudge any gay or trans fans that have legit problems with this series or not so subtly imply that it's simply all in their heads.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:46 pm

The narrative context of Pan usually being relegated to the "damsel in distress" trope and not becoming a Super Saiyan, despite the fact that literally every other major Saiyan character who was introduced in the main plot became a Super Saiyan, very much stems from a sexist mentality.

Honestly though, Dragon Ball in general is pretty bad writing female characters. Every major female character introduced in the main story either goes from martial artist to housewife (Chi Chi, #18 and Videl), is already a housewife (Mrs Brief) or is tacked with a sexist gimmick that undermines them as a martial artist (Ranfan).

The worst written female character in all of Dragon Ball though has to be Gine. Primarily due to how there are several unfortunate implications to unpack in her scenario. She's the only female Saiyan character that Toriyama every directly created and personal wrote for and it really shows. She quits fighting all together to become lunch-lady. And just to make matters worse, it's heavily implied she embodied the "damsel in distress" trope even as a space pirate. I mean... jeez.

The only female characters that is written with any kind of depth or consistency in all of Dragon Ball is Bulma, and even she ends up embracing several outdated stereotypes about women.

Have things gotten better then for female characters in Dragon Ball since the 90s? Kind of. Kale and Caulifla were step in the right direction, despite some creative misgivings such as giving Caulifla SSJ2 so anticlimactically and having Kale (initially) as a walking promotional tool for Broly. And Ribrianne -- despite being widely inconsistent in terms of power scaling -- provided enough charm and whimsy in a gag gimmick... until it was stretched out for far too long and became annoying to watch. But bad habits still creep in with Android #21 being nothing more than "waifu" bait. I think the best female character we've gotten out of modern Dragon Ball is Cheelai. She has as wide range of personality, good chemistry with everyone she interacts with, has her own agency and doesn't have to rely on brute force or strength to get her own way.

If you want to find the root of the problem as to why female characters are sometimes written they way they are Dragon Ball, you really have look at how sexist a country like Japan is. I don't like making sweeping generalisation like that, but when you have stories like this, laws like this, and progressive movements like this, I think it fair to say that there are some very misogynistic mentalities that are very much deep baked into Japan's already very conservative society. And that conservative mentality is adopted by many people in Japan and can potentially bleed into the kind of work we see Japan whether it's in manga, anime or novels.

Hell, this comment Toriyama made a few years ago is packed with unfortunate implications:
"To all boys, adult [men] with the hearts of boys, and the perhaps-few-in-number women who understand the hearts of boys, by all means please see [the movie] and get fired up." - Source.

This kind of antiquated view point is how characters like Gine are created in the way they are. And at worst, how misogynistic abominations like Lady Red (NSFW) are created.

And this isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, it's an industry wide problem. It's how the concept of "Moe" was born. With the concept being based on the delusion subtext that women (usually specifically teenage girls) exist solely to act defenceless and look cute for the purposes of fulfilling a pseudo protector and sexual dominance fantasy for a man (usually a young man). That ideal is not just INSANELY sexist, but also quite dehumanizing. And this kind of subtext has seen SO much in anime and manga in the last 30 years, with it being especially prevalent in light novels. And the fact that the concept has more morphed into subculture that has become very profitable to use and exploit for mangaka, writers and animation studios tells you everything you need to know about how much of an accepted concept they think it is.

I know some people will say, "It's just art. There's no need to worry about it." But at the end of the day, manga and anime are a part of a medium that are considered works of art. And art is not just there for decoration. It's a part of culture. It moulds significant parts of culture. And culture matters. Artists and writers can, and should do, much better.

So... to get back to the original point... yes... Dragon Ball GT really dropped the ball in writing Pan.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:18 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Dragon Ball isn't above criticism, of course not but I find it a bit odd when folks feel like they gotta throw their social issues onto a piece art to create problems that aren't there.
I think several of the people in this thread have adequately pointed out the problems that are very much there and the negative attitudes they (intentionally or not) play into.

You come off like you flat out don't care about these issues because they don't affect you; and since they don't affect you, they don't matter enough to even acknowledge as issues in your eyes. I'm not gay or trans, but I'm not going to begrudge any gay or trans fans that have legit problems with this series or not so subtly imply that it's simply all in their heads.
I come off like I don't care because I understand the humor in the moments and even if it is offensive, which it is, because patting a chick on the crotch without her permission isn't okay but that's part of Goku's charm, he doesn't know any better but Bulma slaps him for it anyway.

Humor tends to be mildly offensive in most cases, if you think about your favorite stand up comics or sitcom or raunchy cartoon, there're jokes galore that're usually at the expense of someone else for what ever reason (cultural, orientation, age, height, weight, habits etc) but its all in good fun. Are people gonna be offended? Sure, but you can never please everyone. Throwing words like sexist and mysogynist around like they're lite weight critiques is insanely dangerous especially when trying to make every little thing an issue when it doesn't fit your personal status quo.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:46 pm
The narrative context of Pan usually being relegated to the "damsel in distress" trope and not becoming a Super Saiyan, despite the fact that literally every other major Saiyan character who was introduced in the main plot became a Super Saiyan, very much stems from a sexist mentality.

Honestly though, Dragon Ball in general is pretty bad writing female characters. Every major female character introduced in the main story either goes from martial artist to housewife (Chi Chi, #18 and Videl), is already a housewife (Mrs Brief) or is tacked with a sexist gimmick that undermines them as a martial artist (Ranfan).

The worst written female character in all of Dragon Ball though has to be Gine. Primarily due to how there are several unfortunate implications to unpack in her scenario. She's the only female Saiyan character that Toriyama every directly created and personal wrote for and it really shows. She quits fighting all together to become lunch-lady. And just to make matters worse, it's heavily implied she embodied the "damsel in distress" trope even as a space pirate. I mean... jeez.

The only female characters that is written with any kind of depth or consistency in all of Dragon Ball is Bulma, and even she ends up embracing several outdated stereotypes about women.

Have things gotten better then for female characters in Dragon Ball since the 90s? Kind of. Kale and Caulifla were step in the right direction, despite some creative misgivings such as giving Caulifla SSJ2 so anticlimactically and having Kale (initially) as a walking promotional tool for Broly. And Ribrianne -- despite being widely inconsistent in term of power scaling -- provided enough charm and whimsy in a gag gimmick... until stretched out for far too long and become annoying to watch. But bad habits still creep in with Android #21 being nothing more than "waifu" bait. I think the best female character we've gotten out of modern Dragon Ball is Cheelai. She has as wide range of personality, good chemistry with everyone she interacts with, has her own agency and doesn't have to rely on brute force or strength to get her own way.

If you want to find the root of the problem as to why female characters are sometimes written they way they are Dragon Ball, you really have look at how sexist a country like Japan is. I don't like making sweeping generalisation like that, but when you stories like this, laws like this, and progressive movements like this, I think it fair to say that there are some very misogynistic mentalities that are very much deep baked into Japan's already very conservative society. And that conservative mentality is adopted by many people in Japan and can potentially bleed into the kind of work we seen Japan whether it's in manga, anime or novels.

Hell, this comment Toriyama made a few years ago is packed with unfortunate implications:
"To all boys, adult [men] with the hearts of boys, and the perhaps-few-in-number women who understand the hearts of boys, by all means please see [the movie] and get fired up." - Source.

This kind of antiquated view point is how characters like Gine are created in the way they are. And at worst, how misogynistic abominations like Lady Red (NSFW) are created.

And this isn't exclusive to Dragon Ball, it's an industry wide problem. It's how the concept of "Moe" was born. With the concept being based on the delusion subtext that women (usually specifically teenage girls) exist solely to act defenceless and look cute for the purposes of fulfilling a pseudo protector and sexual dominance fantasy for a man (usually a young man). That ideal is not just INSANELY sexist, but also quite dehumanizing. And this kind of subtext has seen SO much in anime and manga in the last 30 years, with it being especially prevalent in light novels. And the fact that the concept has more morphed into subculture that has become very profitable to use and exploit for mangaka, writers and animation studios tells you everything you need to know about how much of an accepted concept they think it is.

I know some people will say, "It's just art. There's no need to worry about it." But at the end of the day, manga and anime are a part of a medium that are considered works of art. And art is not just there for decoration. It's a part of culture. It moulds significant parts of culture. And culture matters. Artists and writers can, and should do, much better.

So... to get back to the original point... yes... Dragon Ball GT really dropped the ball in writing Pan.
That's a good post but I do want to make a small addendum: from all the reading I've done Otaku don't really care for real life women, anyway. Most appear to be happy with their 2D characters, whether the Otaku in question is a man or a woman. Of course, every group has their assholes. The Otaku were born out of a desire to escape traditional male roles, which is why they ran to consuming 'girls culture', then because producing their own 'girl's culture', i.e. shoujo comics. It's really a sort of queer revolution of sorta, especially since the Otaku as first coined by Nakamori were referred to homophobicly and transphobicly as 'okama-ppoi' (faggot/tranny-esque) for how they didn't desire real women and would also dress as their favorite shoujo characters, indicating that there is a strong transgender or gender-queer connection to being an Otaku.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:25 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:18 pm
Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:03 pm
Dragon Ball isn't above criticism, of course not but I find it a bit odd when folks feel like they gotta throw their social issues onto a piece art to create problems that aren't there.
I think several of the people in this thread have adequately pointed out the problems that are very much there and the negative attitudes they (intentionally or not) play into.

You come off like you flat out don't care about these issues because they don't affect you; and since they don't affect you, they don't matter enough to even acknowledge as issues in your eyes. I'm not gay or trans, but I'm not going to begrudge any gay or trans fans that have legit problems with this series or not so subtly imply that it's simply all in their heads.
I come off like I don't care because I understand the humor in the moments and even if it is offensive, which it is, because patting a chick on the crotch without her permission isn't okay but that's part of Goku's charm, he doesn't know any better but Bulma slaps him for it anyway.

Humor tends to be mildly offensive in most cases, if you think about your favorite stand up comics or sitcom or raunchy cartoon, there're jokes galore that're usually at the expense of someone else for what ever reason (cultural, orientation, age, height, weight, habits etc) but its all in good fun. Are people gonna be offended? Sure, but you can never please everyone. Throwing words like sexist and mysogynist around like they're lite weight critiques is insanely dangerous especially when trying to make every little thing an issue when it doesn't fit your personal status quo.
Humor isn't about punching down, it's about punching up. If you're offending marginalized people you're not being funny, you're being an ass.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:46 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:18 pm
I come off like I don't care because I understand the humor in the moments and even if it is offensive, which it is, because patting a chick on the crotch without her permission isn't okay but that's part of Goku's charm, he doesn't know any better but Bulma slaps him for it anyway.

Humor tends to be mildly offensive in most cases, if you think about your favorite stand up comics or sitcom or raunchy cartoon, there're jokes galore that're usually at the expense of someone else for what ever reason (cultural, orientation, age, height, weight, habits etc) but its all in good fun. Are people gonna be offended? Sure, but you can never please everyone. Throwing words like sexist and mysogynist around like they're lite weight critiques is insanely dangerous especially when trying to make every little thing an issue when it doesn't fit your personal status quo.
Implicit bias is a thing that exists. What most of these criticisms revolve around is the idea that the problematic aspects of the series play into implicit biases that ultimately reinforce negative attitudes about certain groups of people. Writing it all off as simply "humor" that's "all in good fun" is missing the point of these criticisms (and at worst, providing cover that allows these negative attitudes to continue existing). But again, you don't seem to want to acknowledge these as legit criticisms in the first place so of course you're going to completely miss/overlook this point.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:58 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:25 pm
Humor isn't about punching down, it's about punching up. If you're offending marginalized people you're not being funny, you're being an ass.
Technically speaking, humor isn't "about" either, as is totally subjective; a person who "offends" marginalized people can be "funny" and an ass depending on who is listening. With that being said, I do agree that punch-up humor is MUCH more preferable and beneficial. Punch-down humor breeds toxicity.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Thanos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:00 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:46 pm
Implicit bias is a thing that exists. What most of these criticisms revolve around is the idea that the problematic aspects of the series play into implicit biases that ultimately reinforce negative attitudes about certain groups of people. Writing it all off as simply "humor" that's "all in good fun" is missing the point of these criticisms (and at worst, providing cover that allows these negative attitudes to continue existing). But again, you don't seem to want to acknowledge these as legit criticisms in the first place so of course you're going to completely miss/overlook this point.
I'm conflicted here. I... sort of agree with both of you. Humor is humor. However, it does raise the question of how this type of thing influences and perpetuates the biases and stereotypes of the viewer. On the other hand, I don't feel comfortable as a Westerner getting on a high horse about another culture's 35-year-old content as if I'm actually accomplishing anything. I am all for trending progressively but at what point is it kind of insane to try to cancel and erase history because it doesn't conform to the values of February 24th 2021? Will it get to the point where it will be frowned upon to consume entertainment from five years ago because we've decided it represents things now unacceptable? At a certain point, I think you just have to grit your teeth and put up with it to a certain degree and hope content creators moving forward can represent better values and judgment. I'm more willing to give these allowances to animated/non-Western media by the way, because I know in recent times I've seen older live action TV/films with offensive stereotypes and it leaves a way worse taste in mouth to see it live action. Are old Japanese cartoons really a threat to society? Is it necessary to do a wholesale canvasing of everything on the planet to make sure it aligns with our own personal morals and ethics? Sort of an open question, really, but you get the point.
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:48 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 pm
Granted that doesnt mean its okay for General Blue to be drooling over a little kid but that also doesnt mean just because Goku pats a girl on the crotch to identify her sex that Toriyama is indirectly sending hate messages about women to young boys.
Actually that's exactly what it means. Toriyama is indeed sending out those messages, about not only cis women, but probably trans women also.
Are you retroactively applying modern Western hot potato issues to a 35-year-old Japanese comic? This was not something on anyones' mind in 1986, let alone in Japan. It's not 35-years-ago Toriyama's fault that he didn't foresee the unpacking of these social issues to the complex degree that they have reached. It's not an excuse, and that's not what I'm doing, but that simply wasn't a thing at the time. Moral standards vary and change over time, you can't retroactively get mad at people because standards that didn't exist at the time now do. There is no evidence there was any intent of this joke other than to imply Goku is so sheltered and naive that he doesn't understand sex at all. It's not promoted, encouraged, or shown in a positive light. He shouldn't, but he did. That's the joke. Why is sex forbidden to joke about?
Thanos before Thanos was cool.

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