GT and misogyny

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by DestructoDisc » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:13 pm

Who did GT even treat well besides Goku and maybe Mr. Satan? Pan was done dirty but so was Uub, so was Gohan, so was Krillin, so was everyone not named Goku. #18 was actually better treated than majority of the cast, since she had some good moments in the Super 17 saga and was a major character in it.

Thankfully we live in a time now where the female characters get way better treatment than they did in the 90s. Bulma is more relevant and likeable, there's also Mai (both present and future), 18 came back and started kicking ass again, we got new characters like Cheelai, and powerful fighters like Caulifla, Kale, Ribrianne, etc. We have characters now that are either up there with Goku when it comes to strenght (Helles) or could legit kick his ass in no time (Vados, Cus, Marcartia, Martinu). The video games gave us 21 and Towa, Heroes also introduced plenty of strong female characters, and the most recent manga arc has Maki in it who's really likeable so far, at least to me.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:23 pm

Thanos wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:00 pm
I'm conflicted here. I... sort of agree with both of you. Humor is humor. However, it does raise the question of how this type of thing influences and perpetuates the biases and stereotypes of the viewer. On the other hand, I don't feel comfortable as a Westerner getting on a high horse about another culture's 35-year-old content as if I'm actually accomplishing anything. I am all for trending progressively but at what point is it kind of insane to try to cancel and erase history because it doesn't conform to the values of February 24th 2021? Will it get to the point where it will be frowned upon to consume entertainment from five years ago because we've decided it represents things now unacceptable? At a certain point, I think you just have to grit your teeth and put up with it to a certain degree and hope content creators moving forward can represent better values and judgment. I'm more willing to give these allowances to animated/non-Western media by the way, because I know in recent times I've seen older live action TV/films with offensive stereotypes and it leaves a way worse taste in mouth to see it live action. Are old Japanese cartoons really a threat to society? Is it necessary to do a wholesale canvasing of everything on the planet to make sure it aligns with our own personal morals and ethics? Sort of an open question, really, but you get the point.
Cultural relativism doesn't work as a defense here.

1. Yes, Toriyama and the series are products of their time and culture, but that doesn't mean the negative attitudes embedded in these jokes are not harmful.

2. Since you want to bring up Japanese culture, Japan still has a huge sexism problem not unlike the US and is generally still far behind the US on LGBT issues as well. Stuff like this only contributes to those problems in the long run.

Also, no one is talking about erasing history. If anything, it's people like Krump that want to erase the negative connotations of these things and act like they exist in a vacuum and can't affect anyone or anything in a negative way.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:37 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:25 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:18 pm
Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:44 pm


I think several of the people in this thread have adequately pointed out the problems that are very much there and the negative attitudes they (intentionally or not) play into.

You come off like you flat out don't care about these issues because they don't affect you; and since they don't affect you, they don't matter enough to even acknowledge as issues in your eyes. I'm not gay or trans, but I'm not going to begrudge any gay or trans fans that have legit problems with this series or not so subtly imply that it's simply all in their heads.
I come off like I don't care because I understand the humor in the moments and even if it is offensive, which it is, because patting a chick on the crotch without her permission isn't okay but that's part of Goku's charm, he doesn't know any better but Bulma slaps him for it anyway.

Humor tends to be mildly offensive in most cases, if you think about your favorite stand up comics or sitcom or raunchy cartoon, there're jokes galore that're usually at the expense of someone else for what ever reason (cultural, orientation, age, height, weight, habits etc) but its all in good fun. Are people gonna be offended? Sure, but you can never please everyone. Throwing words like sexist and mysogynist around like they're lite weight critiques is insanely dangerous especially when trying to make every little thing an issue when it doesn't fit your personal status quo.
Humor isn't about punching down, it's about punching up. If you're offending marginalized people you're not being funny, you're being an ass.
Eh, the never-ending "punching down" vs. "punching up" argument has always come off to me as a conveniently politicized, retroactive application of laws to a medium that above all else seeks to draw laughter. Punching down is certainly mean spirited and has no place, but adhering too hard to "punching up" and rules of comedy leads to the type of bland, safe, pandering "clapter" comedy that my generation gravitates towards.


Even when punching up, other groups will inevitably catch strays if the satire actually has some teeth. Even the woke crowd's go-to joke about MRA's and the like are "Fat manbabies living in their mother's basement" - is body shaming, ablism and classism funny as long as the subject is an asshole? What's right and isn't right can change so much depending on one's perspective that it begs the question of what level of responsibility comedy and its people should even assume in the greater world, where issues aren't going to be solved just because John Oliver DESTROYED it.

(And sometimes what's right or wrong depends on simply who's saying it - a white guy would get skewered if he said the type of stuff about certain parts of the black community that Chris Rock has. Even I'm not safe from it, because I nod in agreement when hearing it from Chris, but would balk when hearing it from a white guy)

Ultimately, comedians should do whatever they do; and the people will decide whether they want anything to do with it or not. Comedy is mostly just a reflection of our sensibilities.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:47 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:23 pm
If anything, it's people like Krump that want to erase the negative connotations of these things and act like they exist in a vacuum and can't affect anyone or anything in a negative way.
No no no, lets not do that, I'm not trying to erase anything, YES I stand on the idea that some of Dragon Ball's more lewd jokes aren't as dangerous as people are making them out to be. However I also acknowledge when I agree that something IS wrong I.E Popo, Pedo-Blue, The over use of Roshi's perviness in modern work etc. I don't see how that makes me wrong for having an opposing view on subject matter pertaining to a story. You're offended and here's why and I'm not offended and here's why, thats how this whole discussion has been. Dragon Ball isnt perfect, I never claimed it to be.

Words hold power, Sexist, Sexism, Misogyny, Phobia, Shaming all of these terms are like nuke buttons in todays society yet they're thrown around so freely the moment folks dont agree with something, not understanding what could happen under the right circumstances when its not warranted. I'm not saying Dragon Ball is gonna get "canceled" or anything (though it could, crazier things have happened in the world) but I also dont think Toriyama needs to write an appology letter for his taste in humor and neither should I for finding it funny.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:47 pm
Words hold power, Sexist, Sexism, Misogyny, Phobia, Shaming all of these terms are like nuke buttons in todays society yet they're thrown around so freely the moment folks dont agree with something, not understanding what could happen under the right circumstances when its not warranted.
This is not that situation though. Again, the general criticisms in question are legit and don't have grounds to be dismissed offhand.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:09 pm

Thanos wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:00 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:48 am
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:49 pm
Granted that doesnt mean its okay for General Blue to be drooling over a little kid but that also doesnt mean just because Goku pats a girl on the crotch to identify her sex that Toriyama is indirectly sending hate messages about women to young boys.
Actually that's exactly what it means. Toriyama is indeed sending out those messages, about not only cis women, but probably trans women also.
Are you retroactively applying modern Western hot potato issues to a 35-year-old Japanese comic? This was not something on anyones' mind in 1986, let alone in Japan. It's not 35-years-ago Toriyama's fault that he didn't foresee the unpacking of these social issues to the complex degree that they have reached. It's not an excuse, and that's not what I'm doing, but that simply wasn't a thing at the time. Moral standards vary and change over time, you can't retroactively get mad at people because standards that didn't exist at the time now do. There is no evidence there was any intent of this joke other than to imply Goku is so sheltered and naive that he doesn't understand sex at all. It's not promoted, encouraged, or shown in a positive light. He shouldn't, but he did. That's the joke. Why is sex forbidden to joke about?
It's wrong now, it was wrong then. Retroactively applying modern standards to history is how things are supposed to be done. The more we learn and understand in the future, the better we are able to judge the past.

No one is getting mad at or blaming people. No one is questioning Toriyama's intent. It's not about Toriyama or the individual. It's about their actions and their messages.

Nothing is forbidden to joke about. But what you joke about has consequences, intended or unintended, obvious or hidden.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Thanos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:21 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:09 pm
It's wrong now, it was wrong then. Retroactively applying modern standards to history is how things are supposed to be done. The more we learn and understand in the future, the better we are able to judge the past.

No one is getting mad at or blaming people. No one is questioning Toriyama's intent. It's not about Toriyama or the individual. It's about their actions and their messages.

Nothing is forbidden to joke about. But what you joke about has consequences, intended or unintended, obvious or hidden.
Sorry, which part was wrong? None of these things were promoted or put in a positive light. I won't defend blackface or the shitty writing of women of course, but perverts are often punished or shunned. Comedy has a habit of being provocative and taboo. Do you have specific content where you draw the line as unacceptable to consume based on particular moral standards? I presume you're against murder, do you not watch action movies or TV shows where people are killed?
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:24 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:47 pm
Words hold power, Sexist, Sexism, Misogyny, Phobia, Shaming all of these terms are like nuke buttons in todays society yet they're thrown around so freely the moment folks don't agree with something, not understanding what could happen under the right circumstances when its not warranted.
This is not that situation though. Again, the general criticisms in question are legit and don't have grounds to be dismissed offhand.
I never offhandedly dismissed them though, My initial questions were in regards to how did it show contempt or hatred for women for having the ladies who did fight retire to motherhood. My question was how was that offensive? To prioritize being a good mom over bench pressing mountains especially when the story doesn't revolve around said characters. Sure Chichi knows how to throw a punch but that doesn't mean she should go running to the battle field during the next big fight. For what? For inclusion? How is Bulma's brash attitude offensive when we're 1.Surrounded by women like that everyday and 2. "Get EM GURL, DONT TAKE HIS SHIT" has been a novel message point since the 70s?

I don't see it as misandry when the meek male protagonist of a harem or romance series is constantly tripping over his own dick because he cant handle the female attention. So my countering questions were how was it offensive to embrace mother hood over something that was little more than a hobby for Chichi, needless sweat breaking for 18 and while Videl did show a level of passion for fighting and even law enforcement, their are plenty of women who retire from harsh contact sports and careers after giving birth, theirs nothing wrong with that and I certainly don't see it as Misogynistic.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:28 pm

I am a woman and so is Julie and we see it in that manner. Even if you don't feel that way, there are women who do and being that it's representation of us which women are treated quite unfair in the anime medium as a whole I'd say we're valid in our discomfort.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm

Please stop using humor to make fun of women, LGBTQIA+ people and BIPOC. It's really not that hard. When you have privilege it's not your place to use your platform to make jokes of immutable attributes or stereotypes of those with less privilege than you.

Also, the jokes aren't even fucking funny. Literally. One. Joke.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Thanos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm
Please stop using humor to make fun of women, LGBTQIA+ people and BIPOC. It's really not that hard. When you have privilege it's not your place to use your platform to make jokes of immutable attributes or stereotypes of those with less privilege than you.

Also, the jokes aren't even fucking funny. Literally. One. Joke.
Yeah, when you stay stop, you're referring to content that has been made far in the past and modern content (Dragon Ball) has, at least, significantly less of this offensive shit than what we've been referring to, which is encouraging especially for a culture that places less reverence and focus on the respect of those groups. So, maybe it hasn't stopped but it's moving in the right direction.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:42 pm

Thanos wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:38 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:31 pm
Please stop using humor to make fun of women, LGBTQIA+ people and BIPOC. It's really not that hard. When you have privilege it's not your place to use your platform to make jokes of immutable attributes or stereotypes of those with less privilege than you.

Also, the jokes aren't even fucking funny. Literally. One. Joke.
Yeah, when you stay stop, you're referring to content that has been made far in the past and modern content (Dragon Ball) has, at least, significantly less of this offensive shit than what we've been referring to, which is encouraging especially for a culture that places less reverence and focus on the respect of those groups. So, maybe it hasn't stopped but it's moving in the right direction.
I disagree that it's any better. Super Anime Roshi had some rapey scenes during the ToP arc. One episode is him chasing after a girl and at times kidnapping her. Then in the arc one of the female combatants it was pretty much implied Roshi was gonna assault her or at least made her feel that way so she jumps off when he starts giving her that creepy horny look.

The manga is at least better as there's no scenes like this which I give props to Toyotaro.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Thanos » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:46 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:42 pm
I disagree that it's any better. Super Anime Roshi had some rapey scenes during the ToP arc. One episode is him chasing after a girl and at times kidnapping her. Then in the arc one of the female combatants it was pretty much implied Roshi was gonna assault her or at least made her feel that way so she jumps off when he starts giving her that creepy horny look.

The manga is at least better as there's no scenes like this which I give props to Toyotaro.
Well, I won't defend that. I haven't rewatched Super since it aired in Japan so it's been quite a while so I don't remember those scenes, but I'll take your word for it. Seems like an issue with the character. Something tells me it wouldn't happen or significantly without him around, which would be fine as I've never been particularly fond of him, personally.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:49 pm

Thanos wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:21 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:09 pm
It's wrong now, it was wrong then. Retroactively applying modern standards to history is how things are supposed to be done. The more we learn and understand in the future, the better we are able to judge the past.

No one is getting mad at or blaming people. No one is questioning Toriyama's intent. It's not about Toriyama or the individual. It's about their actions and their messages.

Nothing is forbidden to joke about. But what you joke about has consequences, intended or unintended, obvious or hidden.
Sorry, which part was wrong? None of these things were promoted or put in a positive light. I won't defend blackface or the shitty writing of women of course, but perverts are often punished or shunned. Comedy has a habit of being provocative and taboo. Do you have specific content where you draw the line as unacceptable to consume based on particular moral standards? I presume you're against murder, do you not watch action movies or TV shows where people are killed?
They were promoted when they were turned into funny jokes in a children's cartoon. Goku was never punished or shunned for his actions.

I never suggested that anything was "unacceptable to consume". Just that what we consume has consequences. Personally I enjoy the crotch patting jokes.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 pm

Actually, the more I think about it, the writers of GT probably weren’t very interested in making anyone other Goku look good in that show. Yeah, Pan is often relegated to the damsel in distress, but you could argue that characters like Gohan and Goten were treated worse. Their only real contributions to the series were being puppets for one of the villains and giving energy to Goku on two separate occasions. I’d also argue that Pan got a better deal than Trunks, since unlike him, she managed to stay prominent after the characters returned to Earth.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:20 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:12 pm
Actually, the more I think about it, the writers of GT probably weren’t very interested in making anyone other Goku look good in that show. Yeah, Pan is often relegated to the damsel in distress, but you could argue that characters like Gohan and Goten were treated worse. Their only real contributions to the series were being puppets for one of the villains and giving energy to Goku on two separate occasions. I’d also argue that Pan got a better deal than Trunks, since unlike him, she managed to stay prominent after the characters returned to Earth.
1. We. Literally know that they were being sexist.
2. Introducing women to be a man's emotional labor is still sexist, even if men don't accomplish anything.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:02 pm

Just because a work heavily features a female character doesn’t mean the work can’t be sexist or misogynistic.


I didn’t think that needed to be said but here we are.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:06 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:02 pm
Just because a work heavily features a female character doesn’t mean the work can’t be sexist or misogynistic.


I didn’t think that needed to be said but here we are.
I never said that. I said that everyone who isn’t Goku got the short end of the stick in the show.

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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:22 pm

i don't think that's a very good argument though, especially given what has been said about Pan from the people writing the series. sure most of the characters get the short end of the stick in GT but pan's writing and treatment is still uniquely pretty sexist and bad in it's own way. just because the other characters are badly written doesn't mean that the way pan's written should be cast under that as well. especially given dragon ball's treatment of its female cast.
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Re: GT and misogyny

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:25 pm

Yeah like at least the boys can go Super Saiyan lol.

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