GT and misogyny

[jjgp1112]

It could be as simple as diminishing returns and not wanting to see a dead horse get beaten even more.

[WittyUsername]

I updated the OP to better reflect the current discussions in this thread.

[Adamant]

But it's still present. It exists. It is present in the story. It is an acknowledged fact in the story. Gag or not, it still happened and is canon. So it's an acknowledged story fact that Super Saiyan is a cheap form even toddlers can reach.

Yes, and you're supposed to laugh at the ridiculousness of how this used to be a form that had become legendary due to nobody ever attaining it until Goku went through absolute hell and hit the pinnacle of frustration and anger after being psychologically tortured by space Hitler and made to watch his bst friend get executed in front of him... and now two little kids just gained it by stubbing their toes or something else equally minor that they can't even remember. That's the entire point. It was cheapened beyond the point of being anticlimactic for the sake of humor.

It's a gag that turned Super Saiyan into a joke. So what's the problem with Caulifla getting a joke form in 1 episode?

You said it yourself, Super Saiyan was turned into a meme joke via that gag. Which I agree with, but evidently some people have a problem with Caulifla getting that "oh so legendary" form in 1 episode.

I haven't watched the episode in question, so I have no opinion on it, but I would assume the episode frames it as a major milestone you're supposed to consider a big deal as opposed to a dumbfounded Goten and Trunks going "wait, this ISN'T something everyone did at age 3?"

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, and you're supposed to laugh at the ridiculousness of how this used to be a form that had become legendary due to nobody ever attaining it until Goku went through absolute hell and hit the pinnacle of frustration and anger after being psychologically tortured by space Hitler and made to watch his bst friend get executed in front of him... and now two little kids just gained it by stubbing their toes or something else equally minor that they can't even remember. That's the entire point. It was cheapened beyond the point of being anticlimactic for the sake of humor.

It's a gag that turned Super Saiyan into a joke. So what's the problem with Caulifla getting a joke form in 1 episode?

You said it yourself, Super Saiyan was turned into a meme joke via that gag. Which I agree with, but evidently some people have a problem with Caulifla getting that "oh so legendary" form in 1 episode.

I haven't watched the episode in question, so I have no opinion on it, but I would assume the episode frames it as a major milestone you're supposed to consider a big deal as opposed to a dumbfounded Goten and Trunks going "wait, this ISN'T something everyone did at age 3?"

Yeah, Cabba starts showering her with compliments, saying that she is amazing, a genius, etc.

But come the Tournament of Power and she's quickly put back in her place. Goku easily defeated her and Kale using only SSG, forcing them to fuse. It's not like Goten and Trunks who were treated as the only hope left for the Earth. Caulifla amazed her friends but in the Tournament itself she quickly got a reality check.

[JulieYBM]

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point? The episode establishes Caulifla as a skilled warrior with fierce ambitiousness and Kale as a wild card with rampaging power that can cause a scene at a moment's notice. Furthermore, it brings in Eastern mythology from the real world and applies it to Super Saiyan.

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

[jjgp1112]

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

That's pretty ludicrous.

Edit: Now I know enjoying tbh Super manga is a cardinal sin around here but I peeped how Toyotaro pulled their characters off and...I actually like it a lot better?! Caulifla pulls off SSJ offscreen and Kale actually isn't weird and pathetic!

[WittyUsername]

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

That's pretty ludicrous.

Edit: Now I know enjoying tbh Super manga is a cardinal sin around here but I peeped how Toyotaro pulled their characters off and...I actually like it a lot better?! Caulifla pulls off SSJ offscreen and Kale actually isn't weird and pathetic!

I myself prefer Kale’s portrayal in the manga over the anime. Her being someone who’s confident in her abilities, but tries to hide her true power out of respect for Caulifla is much more interesting than how the anime handled her. Unfortunately, there are other aspects of the Universe Survival arc that I think the anime did better, particularly the ending.

[goku the krump dancer]

The Manga and Anime are practically the Yin Yang to each other so I always implore folks to read it. There are some things that the anime did better and there are other things that the Manga did better so as a consumer of the "Super!" product, I think its genuinely beneficial for someone to read it if they haven't started already. Especially considering that its still continuing the story.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goten and Trunks cheapening the Super Saiyan form to the point even Vegeta calls it ridiculous in story is clearly done done for the sake of comedy. It's an incredibly Toriyama-like gag, very similar to Goku and Kuririn pushing that gigantic rock back in early DB.

Goten and Trunks can at least be explained as them inheriting the SSJ traits from their fathers.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

This sounds like ResetERA. "If you don't like Kale and Caulifla you're clearly a woman hater" when what it really boils down to is someone not accepting others have a different view on a fictional character.

[Koitsukai]

Another questionable scene was Doll Taki drooling over taking the Pan Doll's shirt off. It was censored in some dubs I think.

[KBABZ]

Vegeta's reason to go Super Saiyan off-screen has a lot to do with him needing the form to stand up to the 19 and 20, and Toriyama had to think up how he did it. And as far as off-screen reasonings go, it's a pretty flimsy one, which is probably why it's never mentioned ever again.

[Jord]

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point? The episode establishes Caulifla as a skilled warrior with fierce ambitiousness and Kale as a wild card with rampaging power that can cause a scene at a moment's notice. Furthermore, it brings in Eastern mythology from the real world and applies it to Super Saiyan.

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

Yeah, that's taking it a bit too far.
Ironically they weren't better than men since they still lost, as dis every female competitor.

[SupremeKai25]

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point? The episode establishes Caulifla as a skilled warrior with fierce ambitiousness and Kale as a wild card with rampaging power that can cause a scene at a moment's notice. Furthermore, it brings in Eastern mythology from the real world and applies it to Super Saiyan.

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

Yeah, that's taking it a bit too far.
Ironically they weren't better than men since they still lost, as dis every female competitor.

Yeah, because Goku is the main character, so of course he'll always win. That doesn't mean anything.

Kefla was the only competitor in the Tournament of Power alongside Jiren who forced Goku to tap into Ultra Instinct. That's a big win:



Kefla even disturbed Jiren's meditation, such was her power. Who else disturbed Jiren's meditation in the Tournament of Power?

Kefla was one of the main antagonists in the ToP arc and she definitely proved to be a badass female fighter, unlike Pan or even Android 18, who sacrificed herself to keep her brother in the Tournament. Meanwhile Kefla was independent and reached that tremendous power on her own, she didn't need anyone.

[Jord]

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point? The episode establishes Caulifla as a skilled warrior with fierce ambitiousness and Kale as a wild card with rampaging power that can cause a scene at a moment's notice. Furthermore, it brings in Eastern mythology from the real world and applies it to Super Saiyan.

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

Yeah, that's taking it a bit too far.
Ironically they weren't better than men since they still lost, as dis every female competitor.

Yeah, because Goku is the main character, so of course he'll always win. That doesn't mean anything.

Kefla was the only competitor in the Tournament of Power alongside Jiren who forced Goku to tap into Ultra Instinct. That's a big win:



Kefla even disturbed Jiren's meditation, such was her power. Who else disturbed Jiren's meditation in the Tournament of Power?

Kefla was one of the main antagonists in the ToP arc and she definitely proved to be a badass female fighter, unlike Pan or even Android 18, who sacrificed herself to keep her brother in the Tournament. Meanwhile Kefla was independent and reached that tremendous power on her own, she didn't need anyone.

Actually Goku lost the ToP so he didn't win. Android 17 won.
Furthermore the final battle revolved all around male characters which isn't too farfetched with Shonen series.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually Goku lost the ToP so he didn't win. Android 17 won.
Furthermore the final battle revolved all around male characters which isn't too farfetched with Shonen series.

Missing the point. 17 was on Goku's team, so Goku still won. It wasn't Jiren and U11 who won, or Hit and U6. It was Goku and U7.

Kefla didn't win not because she was a weak woman (she could legit oneshot most of the U7 team), but because she wasn't on the protagonist's team, it's that simple.

[Matches Malone]

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

As much as I disagree with this, I have to give you major credit for showing just how one sided and broken Kanzenshuu's forum rules are, as anyone else would either be silenced or outright banned for saying a fraction of what you say.

Rule #4: Tone & Emphasis

Be respectful of your peers. Your opinions must be expressed with civility. Rudeness (including slanderous words) and personal attacks against members — of this community or otherwise — will not be tolerated.

There are a number of members here, including you, who clearly don't have to follow this rule. It would be nice for the mods to be a bit more clear about what rules apply to who just so everyone knows ahead of time what to expect.

[VegettoEX]

Yeah, I'd say it's all pretty clear. Thanks for pointing it out!

(I'd say "You can't actually be serious" but.........?)

[Matches Malone]

Yeah, I'd say it's all pretty clear. Thanks for pointing it out!

It's not clear who the rules apply to, as some members clearly get away with far more than others. This is not an attack on those members, but rather the way your rules are implemented. Either apply them to everyone or no one.

(I'd say "You can't actually be serious" but.........?)

I'm not the only one who's noticed this.

[Kinokima]

Maybe people shouldn't hyper-focus on the transformations at all because, Jesus Christ, that's not the point? The episode establishes Caulifla as a skilled warrior with fierce ambitiousness and Kale as a wild card with rampaging power that can cause a scene at a moment's notice. Furthermore, it brings in Eastern mythology from the real world and applies it to Super Saiyan.

There's no reason to claim these as examples of the character being badly written unless you hate women and hate women who are better than men.

I agree there are many sexist attitudes when it comes to Dragon Ball but just saying a character is badly written has nothing to do with hating women

It is one thing is the characters are outright bashed but criticizing the writing surrounding these characters or how they got power ups is not hating women even if you personally disagree

It’s also not like male characters are never criticized or bashed in this fandom. To say this is okay but any criticism of female characters is off limits because it means hatred of women is a poor argument to make and misses the point of what sexism is.