Dragon Ball 4K Remaster (16mm)

[VegettoEX]

If that’s all true, then egg on my face and apologies — to me it read as “this is so cool but all people want to do is talk about this other bullshit amiriteguyz” (particularly in a thread where people clearly WERE bad-faithing it).

Sometimes text doesn’t get it all across. We can all do better, myself included.

Carry on indeed!

[derpytacos]

I remember AnimeNewsNetwork wrote a whole piece justifying Funimation's DBZ Blu-rays looking bad because they're multigen film prints..... and almost everyone on this forum said Kai is what 16mm looks like... Best thing about this femboy group is how they're owning these so called "experts" left and right. You love to see it.

Beautiful to see ignorant """""professionals""""" get proven wrong. And by femboys no less, the internet memes are showing their true power.

[JulieYBM]

Never underestimate a femboy with a love of remastering film. This project has proven that.

[Lightningexpose]

Speaking of the TV series, unfortunately it's only DB episode 58. I scanned more episodes myself including one from DBZ, but I borrowed those reels from another person, so they're not included in what I sent to FemboyFilms.

Do you have a plan to try convince Toei releasing DB in HD?

honestly, the femboyfilms group probably have a better chance of convincing Toei to do anything.

If they were to pitch their remastering service as being low-cost for Toei and show how good 16mm can look for a Blu-ray (and also propose a DNR'd version that is DNR'd competently in case Toei won't accept grain) then that could be the best chance for fans to have any influence over Toei.

This remastering they're showing is next level so even people working at Toei might get shocked and look into it if the right people there see it. I hope at least.

One of the original producers from GAINAX has already recognized their remastering and followed their page: https://twitter.com/FemboyFilms/status/ ... 7887628288

[VDenter]

Holy crap that looks impressive. Can't wait to see more.

[CuppaKofe]

Man, this stuff looks good, even in the current state. I'm looking forward to what these prints can look like after a bit of cleanup. I imagine this isn't an easy task in the slightest.

[Vorige Waffe]

Meh, all I'm seeing is multi-generational grain being brought to the forefront and no appreciable detail in the backgrounds or line art. This is a cheaply made show that aired on a weekly basis from the mid 80s printed on cheap film stock, not a Studio Ghibli movie where every detail is poured over and tinkered with. I think you guys are just getting an adrenaline high from seeing Dragon Ball not crushed to SD and DNR applied to it. I could see this as a good reference for a 1080p release (especially after the ugly Selectavision blurays), but 4K is absolutely overkill. This isn't helped by being scanned from a copy and not the OCN, which provided it's stored properly would be even sharper than this.

Also, Femboy Films better be in talks with Toei or Funimation about this, because right now this "release" is just asking for trouble since he pulled this shit before with a scan of Barefoot Gen and caught Discotek's attention. Apparently he didn't know that you can't compete with an in-print release if you don't have the license to distribute from the Japanese rights holder. I'd hate to have a potentially reference quality release of DB scuttled because someone can't keep their mouth shut for internet points.

Really, if you want this to gain any traction, you need to tread lightly and make an effort to contact someone affiliated with the IP, otherwise you're asking for a C&D at best.

I remember AnimeNewsNetwork wrote a whole piece justifying Funimation's DBZ Blu-rays looking bad because they're multigen film prints..... and almost everyone on this forum said Kai is what 16mm looks like... Best thing about this femboy group is how they're owning these so called "experts" left and right. You love to see it.

Justin was more than likely pulling his punches in that article since professionals often don't want to crap on other professionals work (though Justin's done that many times in the past). Moreover that was when the only reference to the 30th boxset was that trailer comprised of mostly first episode footage, which has always been more damaged than other Z episodes, hence its more severe cropping and crushed contrast as a result of Funi's auto-repair process. Anyone who's seen more of the boxset knows the crop isn't as severe (though the DNR doesn't help).

[derpytacos]

So I assume you've taken the raw images posted and manually downscaled them to 1080p right? Not just talking out of your butt right? But you have proof right? Not just repeating the long lasting meme in the anime fandom that anything above 1080p is useless for 16mm film right?

[Matches Malone]

Will this be for sale ? is it official ? if so, how can we buy it ?

[eledoremassis02]

Meh, all I'm seeing is multi-generational grain being brought to the forefront and no appreciable detail in the backgrounds or line art. This is a cheaply made show that aired on a weekly basis from the mid 80s printed on cheap film stock, not a Studio Ghibli movie where every detail is poured over and tinkered with. I think you guys are just getting an adrenaline high from seeing Dragon Ball not crushed to SD and DNR applied to it. I could see this as a good reference for a 1080p release (especially after the ugly Selectavision blurays), but 4K is absolutely overkill. This isn't helped by being scanned from a copy and not the OCN, which provided it's stored properly would be even sharper than this.

Also, Femboy Films better be in talks with Toei or Funimation about this, because right now this "release" is just asking for trouble since he pulled this shit before with a scan of Barefoot Gen and caught Discotek's attention. Apparently he didn't know that you can't compete with an in-print release if you don't have the license to distribute from the Japanese rights holder. I'd hate to have a potentially reference quality release of DB scuttled because someone can't keep their mouth shut for internet points.

Really, if you want this to gain any traction, you need to tread lightly and make an effort to contact someone affiliated with the IP, otherwise you're asking for a C&D at best.

I remember AnimeNewsNetwork wrote a whole piece justifying Funimation's DBZ Blu-rays looking bad because they're multigen film prints..... and almost everyone on this forum said Kai is what 16mm looks like... Best thing about this femboy group is how they're owning these so called "experts" left and right. You love to see it.

Justin was more than likely pulling his punches in that article since professionals often don't want to crap on other professionals work (though Justin's done that many times in the past). Moreover that was when the only reference to the 30th boxset was that trailer comprised of mostly first episode footage, which has always been more damaged than other Z episodes, hence its more severe cropping and crushed contrast as a result of Funi's auto-repair process. Anyone who's seen more of the boxset knows the crop isn't as severe (though the DNR doesn't help).

I do think these look better than the level sets (it just shows how bad the compression/encoding was), tho I agree the 4k could be a little much, but like many of these other projects, it's a fan one so more power to them. If people want a 4k scan and are putting money into it, then it's why not? I'm hoping this wakes more people up to wanting Dragon Ball in HD and it'll be nice to see these few episodes in the best quality possible at this moment in time.

Do they sell their scans or have they just seen as piraters and that's the issue with discotek? This is the first time I've heard of this group.

[Vorige Waffe]

I do think these look better than the level sets (it just shows how bad the compression/encoding was), tho I agree the 4k could be a little much, but like many of these other projects, it's a fan one so more power to them. If people want a 4k scan and are putting money into it, then it's why not? I'm hoping this wakes more people up to wanting Dragon Ball in HD and it'll be nice to see these few episodes in the best quality possible at this moment in time.

Do they sell their scans or have they just seen as piraters and that's the issue with discotek? This is the first time I've heard of this group.

Sevakis contacted them on Twitter and warned them about competing with the official Discotek bluray (it sounded like Femboy was going to prep for a physical media release), but he also offered to collaborate and contact the Japanese licensor. Perhaps at some point Discotek may put out a 4K UHD BR of Gen using Fem's scan, but that's just my speculation.

[Lightningexpose]

Spoiler:

Moreover that was when the only reference to the 30th boxset was that trailer comprised of mostly first episode footage, which has always been more damaged than other Z episodes, hence its more severe cropping and crushed contrast as a result of Funi's auto-repair process. Anyone who's seen more of the boxset knows the crop isn't as severe (though the DNR doesn't help).

What do you mean ep 1 is more damaged so has more severe zoom? Bro, you not seen level sets? Community's anger was level sets didn't zoom in like that for ep1 but they did for 30A--makes no sense since they used the same film scan and not only same restoration but even improved on tape mark fixes compared to levels.

Secondly, okay I thought my good friend Robo4900 dispelled this myth some weeks/months ago here about this assumption that episode 1 is worse than the rest of the series in Funimation's prints...lol

This myth started when UUEs came out the reviews crapped on episode 1 for being excessively grainy and contrasty compared to the other episodes. From that point onwards it was a strongly-held assumption on this forum that Funi's master for ep 1 is in worse condition. However, if you actually look carefully at UUE/Pioneer singles and not just regurgitate senior fanboys' criticisms, episode 1 is the BEST conditioned episode. Yes, it's contrastier and more grainy, but it preserves chroma and sharpness far better than the rest of the episodes.

The theory from fans now who have seen actual evidence of things (as well as these film prints that have come out) is that FUNimation used a better (presumably more expensive) method of creating Digibetas out of the film reels for DB episodes 1-28, DB movies, DBZ movie 1 and DBZ episode 1. Then, for everything else besides GT (which were digibeta already from Japan) they used an inferior method of creating digibetas that fucked up the chroma, color accuracy, and fine details like grain are not as present.

Just compare Level Set's ep 1 vs ep 2 and tell me why it's worse.

Also, I'm not udnerstanding you. You're saying Justin was pulling punches but then you're saying the rest of the boxset isn't as troubled as ep 1...so are you saying Justin overcriticized bc all he saw was the worst example? Not sure what you mean.

Spoiler:

Also, Femboy Films better be in talks with Toei or Funimation about this, because right now this "release" is just asking for trouble since he pulled this shit before with a scan of Barefoot Gen and caught Discotek's attention. Apparently he didn't know that you can't compete with an in-print release if you don't have the license to distribute from the Japanese rights holder. I'd hate to have a potentially reference quality release of DB scuttled because someone can't keep their mouth shut for internet points.

Really, if you want this to gain any traction, you need to tread lightly and make an effort to contact someone affiliated with the IP, otherwise you're asking for a C&D at best.

I mean, from what I can see, FemboyFilms have not announced any kind of attempt to "release" or "distribute" this to anyone. What they're doing right now is no different than Tachata10 posting 10 screenshots a day of his CC. I'd love to see Funi/Toei come to him with a C&D though to stop those AI upscales (Only joking tachata)

Of course, we fans expect they will be doing something like the Star Wars 4k77 projects or w/e, but right now any suggestion of public release is entirely in each of our heads--nothing said by them explicitly suggests a release anywhere. Closest is their calling it a "project" and needing "support", but still no explicit suggestion of distribution be it bootleg physical release or free downloads and no public crowdfund kind of thing is going on.

Generally, especially on this forum at least, it's better to not discuss any release/distribution theories but instead the work itself and how much of the series they can acquire on film and get done. It's a way to appreciate the series getting "preserved" correctly somewhere by someone rather than "hey we're all going to get this super cool thing from unofficial hands"


As for everything you're saying about "meh its still not worthy of 4K"...on a 4K screen you'd rather see 2K grain upscaled to 4K, or 4K grain? Not to mention, UHD BD encoding is far superior and does not lead to loss of detail through compression as much as AVC encoding on normal BDs does. 16mm is totally worth 4K.

[linkdude20002001]

Meh, all I'm seeing is multi-generational grain being brought to the forefront and no appreciable detail in the backgrounds or line art. This is a cheaply made show that aired on a weekly basis from the mid 80s printed on cheap film stock, not a Studio Ghibli movie where every detail is poured over and tinkered with. I think you guys are just getting an adrenaline high from seeing Dragon Ball not crushed to SD and DNR applied to it. I could see this as a good reference for a 1080p release (especially after the ugly Selectavision blurays), but 4K is absolutely overkill. This isn't helped by being scanned from a copy and not the OCN, which provided it's stored properly would be even sharper than this.

Well, the grain is gonna be there regardless of 1080p or 4K. And opting for 1080p over 4K would be like opting for a DVD of a show made in 540p. Yeah, it's not as big of an improvement as if it were animated in 1080p, but it's still 60 lines of resolution better.

[sangofe]

I wonder how AB's remaster is coming if they're really making one.

[Lightningexpose]

I wonder how AB's remaster is coming if they're really making one.

I do have a tiny bit of hope since French anime companies often received film reels. Their DVDs for Crying Freeman (Toei property) are the only source of the OVAs I know of that don't use the ugly 80s/90s Japanese telecine with field blending, because they have their own film reels--this isn't AB though. AB have been pretty quiet about DB from what I can see...wouldn't be surprised if Covid stopped the project. Though that'd be weird since Japan have been going pretty crazy with anime remasters in 2020 and this year too, pushing out new HD remasters one after another for various series.

Speaking of which, for those who haven't seen, Detective Conan which is film-based for first ~300 episodes I've heard has started to get a pretty nice HD remaster on Netflix Japan last week. Right now the first 42 episodes are up. So, if they actually go through with doing all film episodes then this is hope that long-running series can get good treatments too. They were pretty reluctant to do the remaster for years it seems, given the previous select-episode collection Blu-rays upscaled ugly digibeta(?) tapes instead of remastering from film.

Sazee-san as well started to get a HD remaster last year(?) which has first 3 seasons done last I checked and it's from 1969 and ongoing so if they do all of it, that's at least 500-1000 episodes on film I imagine. Here's a screenshot, color restoration is beautiful given it's from 1969:

Spoiler:

And for anyone who thought 4K TV series remasters were still far away from happening, Ashita no Joe (1970, 79 episodes) has begun re-airing in Japan with a brand new 4K remaster which has amazing cel-like color restoration but kind of strong DNR. However, line work didn't become blurry and watery like Cobra/AnJ movie UHDs and supposedly BG details are relatively intact. On top of that, Future Boy Conan (1978, 26 eps) is getting a new 4K transfer to be released by Dynit this year--not sure about Japanese release.

[Vorige Waffe]

Meh, all I'm seeing is multi-generational grain being brought to the forefront and no appreciable detail in the backgrounds or line art. This is a cheaply made show that aired on a weekly basis from the mid 80s printed on cheap film stock, not a Studio Ghibli movie where every detail is poured over and tinkered with. I think you guys are just getting an adrenaline high from seeing Dragon Ball not crushed to SD and DNR applied to it. I could see this as a good reference for a 1080p release (especially after the ugly Selectavision blurays), but 4K is absolutely overkill. This isn't helped by being scanned from a copy and not the OCN, which provided it's stored properly would be even sharper than this.

Well, the grain is gonna be there regardless of 1080p or 4K. And opting for 1080p over 4K would be like opting for a DVD of a show made in 540p. Yeah, it's not as big of an improvement as if it were animated in 1080p, but it's still 60 lines of resolution better.

It also takes time and money create a 4K bluray, especially for a nearly 500 episode series covering original DB to GT. And read my post again; there's barely any additional detail being brought from these scans. 60 lines gets you jack in this case.

Also, I'm not udnerstanding you. You're saying Justin was pulling punches but then you're saying the rest of the boxset isn't as troubled as ep 1...so are you saying Justin overcriticized bc all he saw was the worst example? Not sure what you mean.

I'm saying Justin didn't want to call out the other egregious flaws in the 30th set (like the obnoxious DNR and saturation) because he didn't want to rise any ire with Funimation. If you work in a heavily connected industry (especially in a creative field like media and entertainment), what you say about other people's work can cause problems even if it's completely valid and correct. I'm sure if you got a competent bluray encoder in a closed room and asked what they think of Funi's remastering process, they'd probably agree it's terrible.

[linkdude20002001]

It would take just as much time to make a 1080p Blu-ray Disc release. Might as well go max level if you're gonna put in that kind of time/effort/money. We don't need a repeat of the 480p scans from the 2000s. With DBZ, sure it was like a year before 1080p was a thing (I think), but the re-scans done after 1080p format was conceived were very short-sighted. Especially the ones after the release of Blu-ray Disc. Like the short-sightedness of not backing up the source audio. They could have recorded them to CDs and taken up not too much space (compared to the film reels that stored the original video).

Speaking of the TV series, unfortunately it's only DB episode 58. I scanned more episodes myself including one from DBZ, but I borrowed those reels from another person, so they're not included in what I sent to FemboyFilms.

That's too bad... Maybe the person you borrowed it from wouldn't mind sending it their way once FemboyFilms has some more DB scans to show for? After seeing what they can do, I would think said person would be swayed.

Not related, but I have a question for you. Do you have any clue who MANNA is from the song Detekoi Tobikiri Zenkai Power!? I figured if anyone knew, maybe you would? Hopefully... XD

[KPike87]

I decided to frame the scan, and add the English intro over it both for demonstration purposes. I don't know how to download videos in 4K (outside MKV which Premiere can't see), so 1080p will have to do, but it still looks decent to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwt_F9nzXl0

For fun, I also OB'd it; DNR, widescreen, saturated and contrasty colors, and 1080p downscaled to 480p: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGp2LibyaV4

[Asmo]

I decided to frame the scan, and add the English intro over it both for demonstration purposes. I don't know how to download videos in 4K (outside MKV which Premiere can't see), so 1080p will have to do, but it still looks decent to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwt_F9nzXl0

For fun, I also OB'd it; DNR, widescreen, saturated and contrasty colors, and 1080p downscaled to 480p: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGp2LibyaV4

Great job!

[Lightningexpose]

Eh your arguments are all over the place. I forgot to mention it previously, but you said something like "what's worse is this isn't even the negatives, that'd be sharper" as if you were contradicting our argument just to put a downer on people's excitement for this transfer...but all what you say there does is consolidate that 16mm would look good in 4K.

As for Justin Sevakis, eh I also think you're wrong there. Sevakis has called out other industry people, I remember him publicly criticising AnimEigo's desire to DNR one of their upcoming Blu-rays. For 30A, he wasn't even criticising Funimation one bit to be "pulling punches"--he was simply spouting wrong facts... One thing about Sevakis is, he's the kinda guy that likes to contradict internet fanboys (i do too ) a lot. He saw fanboys hating on funimation so his immediate thought was likely "these fanboys don't know as much as they think they do" and proceeded to attempt contradicting the fanboy consensus with wrong facts like "these film elements wouldn't look good on any blu-ray". We knew that was 100% wrong already since level sets were good, but now the femboyfilm transfers prove him even more wrong. He, but more so other Discotek guys, have even said Qtec do good stuff, which is again just another attempt to contradict the fanboy consensus that Qtec are shit, under the pretence that they "work in the industry" and so know more than the fanboys.

Also, you're wrong about the whole "bro this aint muh high budget high-detail ghibli movie, its muh low budget low-detail tv anime"...there is PLENTY of detail on the cels and background art that the film can't even begin to capture fully. You understand that what the film captured were physical objects in the real world, right? There's an infinite amount of detail...from the fine textures on BGs caused by paint brushes to the roughness of the xerox lines, to the roughness of shading edges...

Have you never seen those 4K-6K promo shot slides?

Spoiler:

Imagine seeing those and still unironically saying "bro its not a ghibli movie, no extra detail ever existed"