Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[MasenkoHA]

In my opinion, it really was not THAT good. Because most of the development occurred in the TOP recruitment stage, it felt a tad rushed and unnatural. It should have been a long term arc starting from the U6 tournament.

Super itself isn’t that good, but they technically started this arc at the end of the Golden Freeza saga.

It would have felt unnatural if he just suddenly had the personality and characterization his stans always wanted him to have (incidentally I quite liked the episode where Future Trunks didn’t understand how this goofy family man could be the same Gohan from his future and the one he saw at the Cell Games before understanding why. It’s like Toei knew of the reaction to Gohan’s later development and addressed it)

Gohan’s “Oh shit if I don’t train myself again how can I protect my family in case of something like Golden Freeza and his forces comes back” made perfect sense for his character because Gohan has always been more altruistic than his father or any of the Z warriors” Being a recent father and getting his ass handed to him by Freeza was the exact kick in the ass he needed.

Wow , Gohan regresses so much that he becomes the weak link of the DB "heavyweights," has to be trained back up, and still accomplishes dick all? Call me crazy but it feels like I've seen that before...

He was the weak link when? He also last quite a long time so I don’t know how he accomplished “dick all”


Gohan stans just can’t be satisfied unless he’s the main character and reached Mystical Ultimate Instinct Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gohan.

[ABED]

How was that not long term? He came to the conclusion that he needed to put his smarts and his battle power together after all of DBZ and Super. I don't know what you are looking for.

I was specifically talking about DBS. In there, most of the development happens in too short of a time period. I don't think there was any intention to synthesize a character arc for Gohan between the two shows.

But you can't take it in isolation. It's a continuation of where the character left off prior.

[PurestEvil]

In my opinion, it really was not THAT good. Because most of the development occurred in the TOP recruitment stage, it felt a tad rushed and unnatural. It should have been a long term arc starting from the U6 tournament.

Super itself isn’t that good, but they technically started this arc at the end of the Golden Freeza saga.

Yes, it did start with the Golden Freeza arc, but it was barely touched upon until the ToP recruitment period. There was no linear growth from that point in that arc, the vast majority of the development occurred in those episodes with him training with Piccolo for the ToP. In my opinion, the jump of power was a bit too much for such a short period of time, and it would have been more organic if we had seen substantial progress before the ToP recruitment.

[MasenkoHA]

In my opinion, it really was not THAT good. Because most of the development occurred in the TOP recruitment stage, it felt a tad rushed and unnatural. It should have been a long term arc starting from the U6 tournament.

Super itself isn’t that good, but they technically started this arc at the end of the Golden Freeza saga.

Yes, it did start with the Golden Freeza arc, but it was barely touched upon until the ToP recruitment period. There was no linear growth from that point in that arc, the vast majority of the development occurred in those episodes with him training with Piccolo for the ToP. In my opinion, the jump of power was a bit too much for such a short period of time, and it would have been more organic if we had seen substantial progress before the ToP recruitment.

Fair enough. It could have been done a lot better but I’ll take what we got over him just suddenly being “I’m a martial arts fighter again and back to my Ultimate Gohan strength or higher” at the start of Super because reasons.

[PurestEvil]

Fair enough. It could have been done a lot better but I’ll take what we got over him just suddenly being “I’m a martial arts fighter again and back to my Ultimate Gohan strength or higher” at the start of Super because reasons.

Well, in the end, I think the concept was alright and he was utilized adequately in the ToP (unlike some other characters...)
Still ain't giving me "martial arts anime protag" vibes, though.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Wow , Gohan regresses so much that he becomes the weak link of the DB "heavyweights," has to be trained back up, and still accomplishes dick all? Call me crazy but it feels like I've seen that before...

He was the weak link when? He also last quite a long time so I don’t know how he accomplished “dick all”


Gohan stans just can’t be satisfied unless he’s the main character and reached Mystical Ultimate Instinct Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gohan.

That's one explanation. Another is that you have low standards and are satisfied so long as you have glue to sniff. There are lots of possibilities

[Grimlock]

Here is one way how academic and fighting would mix, they can have Gohan research some ancient text about ancient ki usage and ancient techniques which Gohan would be able to understand thanks to his understanding on ki usage.
Another thing they can have Gohan do is learn magic, maybe have Gohan learn incantations and spell which would make it easy for him thanks to his academic.

In Dragon Ball there are magic and magic users that use incantations.

In DB Online I believe there's something like that going on, I don't remember if it was Gohan or someone else who studied ki and taught it to the rest of the world, Grimlock is the DB Online authority in this forum, so he might be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

That is correct. Gohan writes a book about Ki and eventually it got popular. This also influences Goten and Trunks to come up with their own school to teach others about swordmanship.

[Skar]

Fair enough. It could have been done a lot better but I’ll take what we got over him just suddenly being “I’m a martial arts fighter again and back to my Ultimate Gohan strength or higher” at the start of Super because reasons.

Would it have made much of a difference if Gohan just continued training after the Buu saga? I don't mean training 24/7 just occasionally since he already went through losing power and having to regain it.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

I know this is more of a "what could've been" discussion but I'm curious what would you like to see with Gohan moving forward? In the Buu saga, it seemed like Toriyama lost interest in the next generation since he killed them off before the final battle and they all apparently stopped training by EoZ. DBS sorta repeats Gohan's development from the Buu saga since he slacked off, lost power, then trained to regain it to protect his loved ones and all that. I think it's more of a last hurray for Gohan before EoZ since he only fought henchmen or secondary antagonists in the ToP and Moro arcs. I don't know what's left for his character at this point or if Toriyama would decide to have him contribute more.

If you're asking me what I was expecting as a child, I'd say the beginning. Legit thought that after all that progression Gohan had we'd finally have our new main character. We'd see how Gohan does when he has to think for himself instead of having others coach him there, we'd see different perspectives to things than Goku, and of course he'd be leading as the new main character. The story was written from almost the very start of Z for Gohan to be this long term main character. One of the rare examples of Toriyama doing long term story telling well...till he changed his mind cause he specifically wrote Gohan differently because he wanted to write a slice of life, then when he had to stop writing that slice of life, for him, it was too late, that new canon he wrote simply proved Gohan was unable to defeat Majin Buu despite writing him in the very same arc, to train with the lost art of the gods of this world, the Kais to unlock his apparent power...only for last second change so he loses.

A lot is said "what are you wanting?" but you know I certainly didn't want Gohan ended up in that buried state he was in the Buu arc. From school boy to embarassing saiyaman, from training to losing the very next chapter after his debut then being...absorbed in pink goo. Just embarrassing.

But yeah if I were to simplify it. I was just wanting him to be what the story was written to be, the character be the main one. I mean I'm an adult now so if I were to get into fanfiction territory I suppose it's once again seeing Gohan's new beginning in the same role Goku had when he got older, just it'll be different since Gohan is more compassionate and smart and we'd be seeing someone fresh on the world come up.

[ABED]

Yeah, he's different, he would be much more of a traditional superhero. I don't want that. I've seen that. That's why Goku is refreshing.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

But yeah if I were to simplify it. I was just wanting him to be what the story was written to be, the character be the main one. I mean I'm an adult now so if I were to get into fanfiction territory I suppose it's once again seeing Gohan's new beginning in the same role Goku had when he got older, just it'll be different since Gohan is more compassionate and smart and we'd be seeing someone fresh on the world come up.

Oh definitely. Like the conceit behind JoJo except much more focused and with actual build up to the new protag.

Personally I think most of my issue with the transition back to Goku stems from the other anime I'd been exposed to before finally watching DBZ. I didn't really have an accurate representation of what the statusquo for shonen looked like. My naive 12 year old self thought it would be like the transitions between Mobile Suit Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam Zeta, and Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ. To me, it seemed natural that a long running series would shift between characters and perspectives because why wouldn't it?

[ABED]

Why would it after a decade?

Gundam isn't the same. Those are a different series every incarnation with a completely different set of characters each iteration.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Gundam isn't the same. Those are a different series every incarnation with a completely different set of characters each iteration.

Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and ZZ are all set in the same universe and follow the fallout of the same political conflict.

And to answer your first question, because there hadn't been any change in the status quo and Goku hadn't changed any as a character. Gundam, Digimon, heck even Tenchi Muyo and Fist of the North Star left me with the impression that, unlike the episodic American cartoons I was used to, anime preferred to move forward stopping when some major conflict was resolved, and then reinventing itself. (This misimpression was egged on by the older anime geeks I knew at the time.) Once I started watching Inuyasha and Rurouni Kenshin I realized that anime was just as afraid of change as their western counterparts. What I was watching wasn't representative.

[Skar]

But yeah if I were to simplify it. I was just wanting him to be what the story was written to be, the character be the main one. I mean I'm an adult now so if I were to get into fanfiction territory I suppose it's once again seeing Gohan's new beginning in the same role Goku had when he got older, just it'll be different since Gohan is more compassionate and smart and we'd be seeing someone fresh on the world come up.

I see. I meant what you would like to see happen with Gohan moving forward based on his current state and what happens with him in EoZ since he probably retired from training again by then.

[MasenkoHA]

And to answer your first question, because there hadn't been any change in the status quo and Goku hadn't changed any as a character. Gundam, Digimon, heck even Tenchi Muyo and Fist of the North Star left me with the impression that, unlike the episodic American cartoons I was used to, anime preferred to move forward stopping when some major conflict was resolved, and then reinventing itself

Can’t say anything about Gundam or Fist of the North Star but Digimon kept rebooting itself in a new universe after the second series. And the second series did the whole “next generation” thing and it was awkward as hell every time the narrative had to find a convoluted and contrived excuse to keep the older cast out of the action.

Tenchi Muyo is significantly shorter than Dragon Ball. Two OVAs that were a combined 13 episodes and two
anime tv series that each only ran for half a year. There was no new protagonist (I guess that more recent GXP spin off did but that was a spin off) just a retelling of the same basic story with some deviations each time.

I realized that anime was just as afraid of change as their western counterparts. What I was watching wasn't representative.

Sure, especially kids anime that has marketability to consider. But I can’t think of too many series that would actually allow their child protagonist grow into an adult with his own kid. Perhaps Toriyama was basically out of ideas after Freeza and should have ended things there. But I don’t see Gohan being the savior in the 11th hour for the final arc of the manga would have made things any better.

[ABED]

Gundam isn't the same. Those are a different series every incarnation with a completely different set of characters each iteration.

Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and ZZ are all set in the same universe and follow the fallout of the same political conflict.

And to answer your first question, because there hadn't been any change in the status quo and Goku hadn't changed any as a character. Gundam, Digimon, heck even Tenchi Muyo and Fist of the North Star left me with the impression that, unlike the episodic American cartoons I was used to, anime preferred to move forward stopping when some major conflict was resolved, and then reinventing itself. (This misimpression was egged on by the older anime geeks I knew at the time.) Once I started watching Inuyasha and Rurouni Kenshin I realized that anime was just as afraid of change as their western counterparts. What I was watching wasn't representative.

That's three out of like a dozen. Most of the series have a beginning, middle, and definitive end.

Even if Goku himself doesn't change that doesn't mean there can't be changes int he status quo. I don't think DB would be better off for switching after this long. We're invested in him and his journey.

[Majin Buu]

Gohan stans just can’t be satisfied unless he’s the main character and reached Mystical Ultimate Instinct Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gohan.

This. Gohan fans basically want him to become Future Gohan with appropriate power scaling and the lead role (and both of his arms).

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Gohan stans just can’t be satisfied unless he’s the main character and reached Mystical Ultimate Instinct Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Gohan.

This. Gohan fans basically want him to become Future Gohan with appropriate power scaling and the lead role (and both of his arms).

Hey now, I like the one arm look. Has some fun implications for fights. Can't parry and punch with only one arm!

But I will strive to be more like the rest of fandom and just be as pigheaded as possible whenever change is brought up. That is the key to happiness, after all.

Even if Goku himself doesn't change that doesn't mean there can't be changes int he status quo. I don't think DB would be better off for switching after this long. We're invested in him and his journey.

Goku is not on a journey. He hasn't been on one since he beat Freeza. There was something like a journey in Cell that Toriyama sorta tried to do again in Buu but that fizzled out when he decided the 'next generation' was only ever going to be dead weight. GT also, inadvertently, gave Goku a bit of a journey (an end to the age of heroes kinda deal) but they didn't realize what they had and while the ending was great everything before it was forgettable.

Right now, there is no difference between what Goku's doing and what silver-age Superman used to do. Big bad shows up, hero develops insane new power, big bad gets beat. Now there's nothing wrong with that. Spectacle for the sake of spectacle can be fun. It was pretty cool seeing what new abilities Superman would come up with in each new issue. But that's not a journey. Despite the superficial changes, things are pretty obviously static and journeys involve, you know, movement.

[PurestEvil]

Goku is not on a journey. He hasn't been on one since he beat Freeza. There was something like a journey in Cell that Toriyama sorta tried to do again in Buu but that fizzled out when he decided the 'next generation' was only ever going to be dead weight. GT also, inadvertently, gave Goku a bit of a journey (an end to the age of heroes kinda deal) but they didn't realize what they had and while the ending was great everything before it was forgettable.

Goku's is in a perpetual journey to break his limits and grow into a stronger and better fighter. That is why he was excited to meet Beerus, train with Whis, etc; he can grow stronger and practice martial arts with new people.

[MasenkoHA]

But I will strive to be more like the rest of fandom and just be as pigheaded as possible whenever change is brought up. That is the key to happiness, after all.

Haha I’m better than everyone else because I need a new main character because progress only happens when the main character is switched out.

Goku is not on a journey. He hasn't been on one since he beat Freeza. There was something like a journey in Cell that Toriyama sorta tried to do again in Buu but that fizzled out when he decided the 'next generation' was only ever going to be dead weight.

Goku’s journey is to keep stronger and find stronger opponents. It’s admittedly a thin as hell of a premise but it does give the series an excuse to continue indefinitely.

Something I’m more than opposed to but for fans who want Dragon Ball to be like Pokemon there ya go.


ETA: Ninja’d by PurestEvil but oh well.

There was no journey in the Cell arc outside of that. The “Gohan will replace me” came the hell out of nowhere.


None of these characters became dead weights until GT and Super. And Gohan got his renaissance in Super (just not the kind his stans wanted)

Almost like the story should have stopped at Buu or something.