Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:29 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:05 pm And they are examples of how you can keep Goku's spirit alive in he narrative without him even being there. The main story could potentially go the same route.
But. They're. One-Offs.
And? Think of them as being test runs for if the series decided to ditch Goku. Is there any reason that the main story couldn't function just as well as the specials did? If not better?

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:49 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:29 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:05 pm And they are examples of how you can keep Goku's spirit alive in he narrative without him even being there. The main story could potentially go the same route.
But. They're. One-Offs.
And? Think of them as being test runs for if the series decided to ditch Goku. Is there any reason that the main story couldn't function just as well as the specials did? If not better?
If they are test runs, they are test runs for a spin off. Just because something worked when it's presented in a short form, doesn't mean it would work in expanded form.

Why would DB work better without the main character?
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm

The Office and what was going with Dragon Ball is not the same.

Dragon Ball is good without Goku. The Office requires Michael Scott. In fact, the terms of Steve Carrell leaving were just cause NBC meddling and them not contacting him and him deciding that they don't want him anymore. He actually wanted to continue. There was no intent to write him out of the show until that weird NBC stuff happened. It wasn't like the author giving Michael Scott a entire run as a child of him growing up into an adult, then having a marriage, then having a son who's son is in the show to the point he's growing up to where he is replaced organically.

You can't compare this situation to really anything cause it's never quite happened like this elsewhere. If there is a proper comparison in this aspect, it'd have to be a series that went through the life of the main character and being replaced by that's character's flesh and blood not some random replacement.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:14 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:49 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:29 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm But. They're. One-Offs.
And? Think of them as being test runs for if the series decided to ditch Goku. Is there any reason that the main story couldn't function just as well as the specials did? If not better?
If they are test runs, they are test runs for a spin off. Just because something worked when it's presented in a short form, doesn't mean it would work in expanded form.
It wouldn't be a certainty that it would work in expanded form, but just enough to show that it's possible. It's like when a network takes a risk on a tv pilot, they don't know if what worked in that one episode would work over the course of an entire series or even season, but they take a chance on it anyway.

Why would DB work better without the main character?
I meant that the main story might do even better without Goku than the tv specials did. It has the benefit of featuring the entire cast of characters that would have to deal with Goku's absence, instead of unconnected characters. As well as implications for larger ongoing plots as opposed to shorter self-contained stories.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm The Office and what was going with Dragon Ball is not the same.

Dragon Ball is good without Goku. The Office requires Michael Scott. In fact, the terms of Steve Carrell leaving were just cause NBC meddling and them not contacting him and him deciding that they don't want him anymore. He actually wanted to continue. There was no intent to write him out of the show until that weird NBC stuff happened. It wasn't like the author giving Michael Scott a entire run as a child of him growing up into an adult, then having a marriage, then having a son who's son is in the show to the point he's growing up to where he is replaced organically.

You can't compare this situation to really anything cause it's never quite happened like this elsewhere. If there is a proper comparison in this aspect, it'd have to be a series that went through the life of the main character and being replaced by that's character's flesh and blood not some random replacement.
DB requires Goku or it's not DB. Carrell unquestionably made The Office better but the fundamental premise of the story was not really about him, it's about the beauty of the mundane. The final season was one of the show's best. DB meanwhile is and always will be about Goku.

How Michael was written out of the show is interesting but not relevant.

Even in your post, you point out that the story of DB follow's Goku through his entire life. What sense does it make to replace someone if the story is about them? Gohan being Goku's flesh and blood doesn't really matter. It's not Gohan's story and his replacing Goku wasn't that organic. Gohan is a very different character and a tad too earnest to be the lead of such a quirky story.
It wouldn't be a certainty that it would work in expanded form, but just enough to show that it's possible. It's like when a network takes a risk on a tv pilot, they don't know if what worked in that one episode would work over the course of an entire series or even season, but they take a chance on it anyway.
What you are talking about isn't a pilot. It's not the first of its own series. It's not even a backdoor pilot, it's like if the backdoor pilot ended up replacing the show and kept the same title.
I meant that the main story might do even better without Goku than the tv specials did. It has the benefit of featuring the entire cast of characters that would have to deal with Goku's absence, instead of unconnected characters. As well as implications for larger ongoing plots as opposed to shorter self-contained stories.
And it could be way friggin' worse. Why get rid of him and no one else? We've seen stories deal with his absence. Doing that for the entire rest of the run might be intriguing but it's not worth the trade off.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:54 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:14 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:49 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:29 pm

And? Think of them as being test runs for if the series decided to ditch Goku. Is there any reason that the main story couldn't function just as well as the specials did? If not better?
If they are test runs, they are test runs for a spin off. Just because something worked when it's presented in a short form, doesn't mean it would work in expanded form.
It wouldn't be a certainty that it would work in expanded form, but just enough to show that it's possible. It's like when a network takes a risk on a tv pilot, they don't know if what worked in that one episode would work over the course of an entire series or even season, but they take a chance on it anyway.

Why would DB work better without the main character?
I meant that the main story might do even better without Goku than the tv specials did. It has the benefit of featuring the entire cast of characters that would have to deal with Goku's absence, instead of unconnected characters. As well as implications for larger ongoing plots as opposed to shorter self-contained stories.
The specials are merely set pieces that add tragic stakes to the story that's already being told, and part of why they aren't jarring departures is because the promise of Goku is still being sold.

This is what you guys are constantly ignoring every time you bring up Goku's absences as evidence that the story would be fine without him: even the stories aren't about him are building up to him. In the main story, when he's off-screen, the tension is his absence and the signal of hope is when he's on the way. The Bardock special not only features a literal badass Goku clone that is dealing with visions of Goku's future, but the story ends with the promise that Goku is going to beat Frieza. That's Bardock solace in his death - he stood his ground for his friends, and now he knows his son will avenge them all (and then probably sees the end of the ToP and is like "wait what").

History of Trunks ends with Bulma giving a monologue of just how awesome Goku is and then Trunks goes to the past to give Goku the antidote and prevent the hellscape that is his timeline from happening. The promise of Goku is one degree of seperation from every Dragon Ball property there is.

In a show where the main cast constantly resets itself and phases people out for others, Goku is the one constant. He is the show. His single-minded aloofness and obsession with battle allows a lot of the story to work the way it does. This is most likely why Toriyama decided that Gohan wasn't worth pushing forward with. After already having to bend Gohan's character slightly to make him fit with his comedy protagonist archetype when he was planning on just goofing with slice of life high school stories, he would have had to bend Gohan's character again to make him the main character who helps drive the plot.

You guys want this Goku-less Dragon Ball so bad then hope for a spin-off that has nothing to do with the main storyline that ran from 1984-97 and was continued from 2015-18. Or, like, just watch another show!
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:09 pm

Can anyone think of a GOOD example of a series switching out its main character and still being good or better?

And again spin offs don’t count. I don’t care if you think Yugioh the one with the motorcycles is better than the first series.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:23 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:09 pm Can anyone think of a GOOD example of a series switching out its main character and still being good or better?

And again spin offs don’t count. I don’t care if you think Yugioh the one with the motorcycles is better than the first series.
The problem isn't a manga switching out its main character. The problem is a long running manga doing something like that with such a huge power creep. Hell they even had the chance to do that by setting it after a timeskip but instead they chose to have the next series take place before the end of Z so they can milk Goku for longer and longer. So I'm willing to bet that they're going to make Goku immortal or something just to keep him as the main character.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:35 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:19 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm The Office and what was going with Dragon Ball is not the same.

Dragon Ball is good without Goku. The Office requires Michael Scott. In fact, the terms of Steve Carrell leaving were just cause NBC meddling and them not contacting him and him deciding that they don't want him anymore. He actually wanted to continue. There was no intent to write him out of the show until that weird NBC stuff happened. It wasn't like the author giving Michael Scott a entire run as a child of him growing up into an adult, then having a marriage, then having a son who's son is in the show to the point he's growing up to where he is replaced organically.

You can't compare this situation to really anything cause it's never quite happened like this elsewhere. If there is a proper comparison in this aspect, it'd have to be a series that went through the life of the main character and being replaced by that's character's flesh and blood not some random replacement.
DB requires Goku or it's not DB. Carrell unquestionably made The Office better but the fundamental premise of the story was not really about him, it's about the beauty of the mundane. The final season was one of the show's best. DB meanwhile is and always will be about Goku.

How Michael was written out of the show is interesting but not relevant.

Even in your post, you point out that the story of DB follow's Goku through his entire life. What sense does it make to replace someone if the story is about them? Gohan being Goku's flesh and blood doesn't really matter. It's not Gohan's story and his replacing Goku wasn't that organic. Gohan is a very different character and a tad too earnest to be the lead of such a quirky story.
It wouldn't be a certainty that it would work in expanded form, but just enough to show that it's possible. It's like when a network takes a risk on a tv pilot, they don't know if what worked in that one episode would work over the course of an entire series or even season, but they take a chance on it anyway.
What you are talking about isn't a pilot. It's not the first of its own series. It's not even a backdoor pilot, it's like if the backdoor pilot ended up replacing the show and kept the same title.
I meant that the main story might do even better without Goku than the tv specials did. It has the benefit of featuring the entire cast of characters that would have to deal with Goku's absence, instead of unconnected characters. As well as implications for larger ongoing plots as opposed to shorter self-contained stories.
And it could be way friggin' worse. Why get rid of him and no one else? We've seen stories deal with his absence. Doing that for the entire rest of the run might be intriguing but it's not worth the trade off.
Because Toriyama writing Goku as his son, focusing on him with Piccolo's parenting, Goku's parenting, Krillin's mentoring and Gohan's journey is an extension of Goku's life. The next generation.

There really is no series that I can think of that's ever tried to in the same series have long term father and son kind of deal.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Kendamu » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:39 pm

I'd rather it not move away from Goku. Saiyans stay in their prime until they're old anyway so why not keep giving him adventures and fights and new heights in martial arts.

Sure, skip to Goku training Oob and stuff but like let both Goku and Oob have some spotlight like how they did with Goku and Vegeta in Super Broly.

Goku is the incorruptible constant in Dragon Ball that influences other characters to grow and become better people. Oob should have that influence in his life, too.

Of course, the exception would be if there was a Mr. Satan and Boo comic or a Jaco comic or something that just focuses on their misadventures. I'd be down for that.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:40 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm Dragon Ball is good without Goku. The Office requires Michael Scott. In fact, the terms of Steve Carrell leaving were just cause NBC meddling and them not contacting him and him deciding that they don't want him anymore. He actually wanted to continue. There was no intent to write him out of the show until that weird NBC stuff happened. It wasn't like the author giving Michael Scott a entire run as a child of him growing up into an adult, then having a marriage, then having a son who's son is in the show to the point he's growing up to where he is replaced organically.
Yeah. There's an obvious difference between a writing room making an honest effort at something and them having to scramble for a fix after the network or an actor forces a change on them. Which The Office does a good job illustrating. The Office was a British show adapted for a North American audience. During that adaptation the personalities of the characters were shifted around to match the American comedians who would be playing them. Same thing happened when The Office was adapted for a German audience in 2004.

Losing protagonists, having to recast protagonists, having to swap protagonists, having to rewrite protagonists, that's all a normal part of a long running franchise's life. And when it's become clear the series creator isn't interested in any more longterm involvement those are all things that need to be on the table. Every long running franchise has done some combination of the four at some point. That's how they stayed relevant. That's how they stayed influential across multiple generations.

Right now the only thing keeping Dragon Ball relevant is nostalgia. Super was not the renewal people were hoping it would be. Nothing in Super or the new films is going to inspire modern comics or artists. If you want Dragon Ball to be more than a toyline you should want it to be more than the 1-Dimensional protagonist Goku has morphed into over the years. Toriyama's wit and gift for squeezing the most tension out of a convoluted arc aren't there to cover for the insipid plots and boring characters. This whole thread is like watching a bunch of Hulk Hogan fans circa 1994 insist that nothing needs to change and that the "Hulkamania" gimmick doesn't need any revision. The act is clearly on its last legs.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:53 pm

For the love of Christ, stop mischaracterizing us as some Goku fanboys who want him to hog the spotlight. What I've been trying to do ad nasuem is break down what the show has been about from the very beginning and that what you guys want is a misreading of the show.

It's apt that you threw out the Hulk Hogan comparison because that's exactly what i was going to point out nex: DRAGON BALL IS NOT PRO WRESTLING. It is a self-contained story that ran for ten years and got a 3 year revival because a bunch of grown people like us couldn't let go of it and keep pumping money into the franchise hand over fist. It's not some round robin show where everybody has to get their shit in and get big pushes, or where Goku has to pass the torch to keep the neverending story fresh.

What is this notion that Goku was the problem with Super and not the rushed production or the fact that's its status as a technical midquel inherently makes it beholden to status quo?

#LetDragonBallBeDragonBall. It's a simple show where Goku is a simple guy who wants to fight and changes people around him with his magnetisim. Everybody has their role. Gohan has a role that's best suited as not a mian character. He's my favorite character and I know this. I probably would be more interested in a show that revolves around him. I'm writing a damn fan fiction about it (in my sig #shameless plug). But I also know that's not what the main show is all about.

Dragon Ball doesn't have to keep going. But if it is, the way to keep the story fresh has already been proven in DB's very own run, where it kept constantly escalating until Toriyama didn't feel like it. All Toei needs to do is just plain execute their stories better, not get rid of the guy the entire story is all about. Dragon Ball is one story.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:08 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:53 pm For the love of Christ, stop mischaracterizing us as some Goku fanboys who want him to hog the spotlight. What I've been trying to do ad nasuem is break down what the show has been about from the very beginning and that what you guys want is a misreading of the show.

It's apt that you threw out the Hulk Hogan comparison because that's exactly what i was going to point out nex: DRAGON BALL IS NOT PRO WRESTLING. It is a self-contained story that ran for ten years and got a 3 year revival because a bunch of grown people like us couldn't let go of it and keep pumping money into the franchise hand over fist. It's not some round robin show where everybody has to get their shit in and get big pushes, or where Goku has to pass the torch to keep the neverending story fresh.

What is this notion that Goku was the problem with Super and not the rushed production or the fact that's its status as a technical midquel inherently makes it beholden to status quo?

#LetDragonBallBeDragonBall. It's a simple show where Goku is a simple guy who wants to fight and changes people around him with his magnetisim. Everybody has their role. Gohan has a role that's best suited as not a mian character. He's my favorite character and I know this. I probably would be more interested in a show that revolves around him. I'm writing a damn fan fiction about it (in my sig #shameless plug). But I also know that's not what the main show is all about.

Dragon Ball doesn't have to keep going. But if it is, the way to keep the story fresh has already been proven in DB's very own run, where it kept constantly escalating until Toriyama didn't feel like it. All Toei needs to do is just plain execute their stories better, not get rid of the guy the entire story is all about. Dragon Ball is one story.
Stop characterizing us as some Gohan fanboys we even have a thread "My boy Gohan" going on, we have that Majin Buu guy getting brainhurt and clearly you and a few others upset that people wanted something more out of the series cause I keep hearing about how Bohan fans only care when he's some power house thus missing the entire point of why we enjoyed him.

Let's just keep it real. We aren't going to agree. There is no understanding gonna happen here because we simply disagree. Like to the point that I completely and utterly and absolutely disagree with you and Abed and MasenkoHa and Majin Buu and whatever other guy who sees this series as the Goku show. As Gohan not having a focus. As Gohan having his arc concluded in the Cell arc.

I'm just not gonna agree. I do not and will not ever see it that way and it actually utterly shocks me that people see things this way but you know what. That's how you view things and I'm pretty sure the way I view things is having that same reaction on your end.

There's not much really to gain here at this point. Both sides have said what they wanted to say and no side is budging because we clearly do not view this series the same way.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:16 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:40 pm
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:50 pm Dragon Ball is good without Goku. The Office requires Michael Scott. In fact, the terms of Steve Carrell leaving were just cause NBC meddling and them not contacting him and him deciding that they don't want him anymore. He actually wanted to continue. There was no intent to write him out of the show until that weird NBC stuff happened. It wasn't like the author giving Michael Scott a entire run as a child of him growing up into an adult, then having a marriage, then having a son who's son is in the show to the point he's growing up to where he is replaced organically.
Yeah. There's an obvious difference between a writing room making an honest effort at something and them having to scramble for a fix after the network or an actor forces a change on them. Which The Office does a good job illustrating. The Office was a British show adapted for a North American audience. During that adaptation the personalities of the characters were shifted around to match the American comedians who would be playing them. Same thing happened when The Office was adapted for a German audience in 2004.

Losing protagonists, having to recast protagonists, having to swap protagonists, having to rewrite protagonists, that's all a normal part of a long running franchise's life. And when it's become clear the series creator isn't interested in any more longterm involvement those are all things that need to be on the table. Every long running franchise has done some combination of the four at some point. That's how they stayed relevant. That's how they stayed influential across multiple generations.

Right now the only thing keeping Dragon Ball relevant is nostalgia. Super was not the renewal people were hoping it would be. Nothing in Super or the new films is going to inspire modern comics or artists. If you want Dragon Ball to be more than a toyline you should want it to be more than the 1-Dimensional protagonist Goku has morphed into over the years. Toriyama's wit and gift for squeezing the most tension out of a convoluted arc aren't there to cover for the insipid plots and boring characters. This whole thread is like watching a bunch of Hulk Hogan fans circa 1994 insist that nothing needs to change and that the "Hulkamania" gimmick doesn't need any revision. The act is clearly on its last legs.
DB is animated and Hogan is a human being who ages and whose body breaks down. Animation doesn't have those constraints. Also, pro wrestling isn't a story of one protagonist. It's an artform that simulates fights. It's not a single story built around a single protagonist with a beginning, middle, and end.

Given how successful DB still is, being relevant doesn't seem to be an issue.
I'm just not gonna agree. I do not and will not ever see it that way and it actually utterly shocks me that people see things this way but you know what. That's how you view things and I'm pretty sure the way I view things is having that same reaction on your end.
How is it shocking that a story that followed Goku's story for 500+ chapters / episodes is about him?

Gohan could be used better but it's not limited to something as simplistic as beating the big bad or being the most powerful. That was never why Goku was the lead. Gohan was interesting well before he fought Cell. His story was interesting because he was an innocent child thrust into a conflict he had no business being part of but was needed and ultimately found his courage in spite of his age and sheltered upbringing. Becoming the strongest is dull in comparison.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:44 pm

Yeesh, this has to be the only series where fans vehemently rant about wanting the main character to be replaced, that is CRAZY!

Batman Beyond is the only time Bruce Wayne is replaced and the series is successful but even then he’s still a primary character. The the animated universe is it’s own continuity anyway though, so technically the whole thing is a spin-off.

I can’t really bring myself to put forth the effort to try to explain why Goku being the main character is what Dragon Ball is no better than what ABED, JJP and some others have been saying. Ultimately it comes to this, there is no Lupin The III without Lupin, there is no Inuyasha without Inuyasha, there is no Detective Conan without Conan Edogawa/Jimmy Kudo, there is no Superman without Clark Kent, there is no Spider-Man without Peter Parker, there is no Nightmare on Elm Street without Freddy Krueger. Not sure why people think you can just swap out main characters like you swap your socks but that just doesn’t work from a narrative standpoint. If you’re tired of the main character then you’re tired of the story you’ve been reading/watching. If you’re sick of Goku, then you’re sick of Dragon Ball, and that’s okay, fans get burned out all the time, but swapping him out permanently isn’t the shot in the arm you think it is.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:53 pm For the love of Christ, stop mischaracterizing us as some Goku fanboys who want him to hog the spotlight. What I've been trying to do ad nasuem is break down what the show has been about from the very beginning and that what you guys want is a misreading of the show.
How am I mischaracterizing you or anyone else in this thread? You've all been very clear that Goku is Dragon Ball and that a Dragon Ball doesn't feed directly back into Goku doesn't count as Dragon Ball.
It's apt that you threw out the Hulk Hogan comparison because that's exactly what i was going to point out nex: DRAGON BALL IS NOT PRO WRESTLING.
I was not calling Dragon Ball pro wrestling. I was drawing a comparison between one set of fans and another.
What is this notion that Goku was the problem with Super and not the rushed production or the fact that's its status as a technical midquel inherently makes it beholden to status quo?
This has to be a joke. Goku has been an albatross around Super's neck (which, coincedentally, is what you all have been asking for). Look at what happened to the Zamasu Arc. Interesting villain and a unique setup. Even an oppurtunity to revisit a popular side character. All of it squandered because Goku isn't allowed to sit out a single arc even when we already have a cast of characters that have proven they can carry a side story.

Look at what happened with the ToP. All the dramatic potential in the world pissed away because 1) Goku can't be wrong and 2) Goku isn't allowed to be humiliated in a fight he picks.
Dragon Ball doesn't have to keep going. But if it is, the way to keep the story fresh has already been proven in DB's very own run, where it kept constantly escalating until Toriyama didn't feel like it. All Toei needs to do is just plain execute their stories better, not get rid of the guy the entire story is all about. Dragon Ball is one story.
Escalation is what fucked up the story in the first place. Look at where we are now. There are at most four characters across nine universes that can challenge Goku. That's fucking stupid. There are no more Goku stories to tell and he is too one note of a character for an arc that's anything other than fighting. What's he going to do next? Get stronger than the Lord of the Cosmos? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to anyone who isn't already sold on rationalizing anything carrying the DB name?

And let's bring this full circle. When Sun Wukong challenged the Buddha he was humbled and then imprisoned underneath a mountain. Even in the outlandish world of the Monkey King there was a line after which the story would need to reinvent itself. What makes Dragon Ball so unique, so special that it doesn't have to do what every other story has had to? If DC ever released a comic book where Superman beats up YHWH everyone, this fandom included, would call it a jump the shark moment. But if Goku does it somehow it's not stupid, it's a satisfying conclusion to his story arc!
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:02 pm

Escalation is kinda baked into the premise which is about a overcoming limits reaching greater heights.
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm This has to be a joke. Goku has been an albatross around Super's neck (which, coincedentally, is what you all have been asking for). Look at what happened to the Zamasu Arc. Interesting villain and a unique setup. Even an oppurtunity to revisit a popular side character. All of it squandered because Goku isn't allowed to sit out a single arc even when we already have a cast of characters that have proven they can carry a side story.

Look at what happened with the ToP. All the dramatic potential in the world pissed away because 1) Goku can't be wrong and 2) Goku isn't allowed to be humiliated in a fight he picks.
How was Goku the problem with either of those arcs?
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm There are no more Goku stories to tell and he is too one note of a character for an arc that's anything other than fighting. What's he going to do next?
What do you want out of Gohan's story?
Batman Beyond is the only time Bruce Wayne is replaced and the series is successful but even then he’s still a primary character. The the animated universe is it’s own continuity anyway though, so technically the whole thing is a spin-off.
And I would argue that Terry isn't that interesting and Bruce is the most interesting character in Batman Beyond.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:21 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:51 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:53 pm For the love of Christ, stop mischaracterizing us as some Goku fanboys who want him to hog the spotlight. What I've been trying to do ad nasuem is break down what the show has been about from the very beginning and that what you guys want is a misreading of the show.
How am I mischaracterizing you or anyone else in this thread? You've all been very clear that Goku is Dragon Ball and that a Dragon Ball doesn't feed directly back into Goku doesn't count as Dragon Ball.
It's apt that you threw out the Hulk Hogan comparison because that's exactly what i was going to point out nex: DRAGON BALL IS NOT PRO WRESTLING.
I was not calling Dragon Ball pro wrestling. I was drawing a comparison between one set of fans and another.
What is this notion that Goku was the problem with Super and not the rushed production or the fact that's its status as a technical midquel inherently makes it beholden to status quo?
This has to be a joke. Goku has been an albatross around Super's neck (which, coincedentally, is what you all have been asking for). Look at what happened to the Zamasu Arc. Interesting villain and a unique setup. Even an oppurtunity to revisit a popular side character. All of it squandered because Goku isn't allowed to sit out a single arc even when we already have a cast of characters that have proven they can carry a side story.

Look at what happened with the ToP. All the dramatic potential in the world pissed away because 1) Goku can't be wrong and 2) Goku isn't allowed to be humiliated in a fight he picks.
Dragon Ball doesn't have to keep going. But if it is, the way to keep the story fresh has already been proven in DB's very own run, where it kept constantly escalating until Toriyama didn't feel like it. All Toei needs to do is just plain execute their stories better, not get rid of the guy the entire story is all about. Dragon Ball is one story.
Escalation is what fucked up the story in the first place. Look at where we are now. There are at most four characters across nine universes that can challenge Goku. That's fucking stupid. There are no more Goku stories to tell and he is too one note of a character for an arc that's anything other than fighting. What's he going to do next? Get stronger than the Lord of the Cosmos? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds to anyone who isn't already sold on rationalizing anything carrying the DB name?

And let's bring this full circle. When Sun Wukong challenged the Buddha he was humbled and then imprisoned underneath a mountain. Even in the outlandish world of the Monkey King there was a line after which the story would need to reinvent itself. What makes Dragon Ball so unique, so special that it doesn't have to do what every other story has had to? If DC ever released a comic book where Superman beats up YHWH everyone, this fandom included, would call it a jump the shark moment. But if Goku does it somehow it's not stupid, it's a satisfying conclusion to his story arc!
Zamasu arc's problems had to do with convolute time travel and writing itself into a corner at the end. Shit, Goku's a pretty passive, non-central figure in the Zamasu arc. In fact, aside from pissing off Zamasu to begin, Goku takes on the most passive role he's had since the very first Dragon Ball arc: he's just there to beat people up while other people actually drive the conflict and the storyline. Those are issues of rushed execution, not Goku being Hollywood Hulk Hogan and saying "That's not gonna work for me, Brother."

And you know something else: HE'S NOT EVEN THE HERO OF THE ARC! Nothing he does amounts to anything besides calling Zeno.

The TOP's problem is the entire narrative structure of the arc that deprives it of an actual rising action and falling action, with a villain that has nothing defined about him until a 5 minute blurb tacked on at the end.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:31 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:02 pm
Batman Beyond is the only time Bruce Wayne is replaced and the series is successful but even then he’s still a primary character. The the animated universe is it’s own continuity anyway though, so technically the whole thing is a spin-off.
And I would argue that Terry isn't that interesting and Bruce is the most interesting character in Batman Beyond.
Hell, I wont argue that, not just because Its been eons since i've seen it but also due to the fact that Terry McGinnis hasnt been used in any mainline stories since that show.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:09 pm

ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:02 pm Escalation is kinda baked into the premise which is about a overcoming limits reaching greater heights.
We've had two sequel series. This talking point worked when I was fifteen and arguing if SSj Goku could beat World War Hulk. It doesn't work anymore. "Escalation," like every other method of building tension, isn't interesting when used in excess.
How was Goku the problem with either of those arcs?
Because every interesting narrative beat they could have taken had to be skipped in order to make Goku the lead and preserve the most easily marketable version of Goku. But you know that.
What do you want out of Gohan's story?
A new story.
Batman Beyond is the only time Bruce Wayne is replaced and the series is successful but even then he’s still a primary character. The the animated universe is it’s own continuity anyway though, so technically the whole thing is a spin-off.
And I would argue that Terry isn't that interesting and Bruce is the most interesting character in Batman Beyond.
Why doesn't that surprise me?
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:21 pm Zamasu arc's problems had to do with convolute time travel and writing itself into a corner at the end. Shit, Goku's a pretty passive, non-central figure in the Zamasu arc. In fact, aside from pissing off Zamasu to begin, Goku takes on the most passive role he's had since the very first Dragon Ball arc: he's just there to beat people up while other people actually drive the conflict and the storyline. Those are issues of rushed execution, not Goku being Hollywood Hulk Hogan and saying "That's not gonna work for me, Brother."

And you know something else: HE'S NOT EVEN THE HERO OF THE ARC! Nothing he does amounts to anything besides calling Zeno.
Goku can't have both tried to change things and been a passive part of the arc. It's one or the other.

Why was he there in the first place? To save the day? Because everyone else had to be made incompetent to give Goku a new challenge? What was gained from involving Goku in a story that already had a strong lead and unique villain? How was the arc made better for having to bend to accomodate Goku and things that would motivate Goku?

This fandom never even attempts to answer those questions when dissecting why Super (and tbh, Buu) Arcs fall apart. It's taken as a given that no matter how compelling the story has the potential to be, Goku has to get involved somehow even if it means making an already complicated story even more convoluted. No matter how much room there actually is for the plot and character moments to breath, space has to be opened up 'to make Goku look strong.'

And no, this isn't a "well, he's the main character" moment. If a side story has to be derailed to accomodate Goku then none of you guys actually think side stories are allowed in Dragon Ball.

Frankly, it would have been better to end with Mai and Trunks holding each other while Zamasu absorbs their whole universe. It would have at least been a powerful note to close on. A painful ending is better than whatever that was supposed to be.
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