Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:34 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:25 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm It's pointless to list his unique characteristics, we all know them, so to succesfully replace him you'd need to do it with someone that would bring to the table some unique characteristics as well. The remaining cast lacks that, so unless you are willing to change an existing character's persona, you'd end up with a pretty "predictable" show.
Which is why you don't try and replace Goku with an existing character. You replace Goku with a brand new character. Someone just as unique and unpredictable as he is.
Aaaaaaaand we're right back to "Why not just make a new show?"

And why make a new character that's effectively an expy of Goku...when you already have Goku??????? It's not That 70s Show - I'm pretty sure Goku's not gonna be up for a movie role that will pull him away from the franchise for a little bit and require Toei to replace him with some goober who drops in from nowhere and is immediately hated by most of the audience. Because that is what will happen in this "New Goku!" scenario. You think Dragon Ball fans, who are notoriously stingy and will cry Mary Sue at anything, will like some new guy that's appointed as the main character? No.

ESPECIALLY Japanese fans. That's what makes this thread hilarious actually - Japanese DB fans are traditionalist as hell and favor Goku pretty heavily and would probably virulently reject a NEW main character. They already hated Yamamoto and Sumitomo just for not being Shunsuke Kikuchi. Y'all are trying to tank the franchise here :lol:
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:42 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:35 pm

So be it, whatever blows your skirt up. Do something original with Uub, a new series around him (then again, there are already existing characters who can lead the series too, as I posted in the first page of this thread. It can be done something original with them too).
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Nagyzöld » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:48 am

In my honest opinion the series should have stopped altogether after the Cell saga. When it was at its perfection.

In this last saga there were key moments which triggered development in most of the characters. If anything, a good story would have let things run their "natural" course and let the new generations take the over while the older ones provide the necessary support and wisdom.

Instead, we have this new gen who's never able, not one single moment, to hold out on its own even if their lives depended on it. So the older gen has to conveniently stay forever young (and strongest), for now and for the umpteen generations that will come after, just to make sure they won't ever end up blown to smithereens.

At that point I felt Dragon Ball is less about story and more about fanservice (and money-milking the franchise), so to answer the question, can it ever move past Goku? No, that ship has sailed decades ago, the series has been doing good, why risk upsetting the fans?

P.S. I've read some opinions that Gohan/Trunks/Goten are too this or that, to ever suit a leading role. Shall I remind that this is kids/pre-teens we're talking about and there's a process called growing up? I'm sure the writers had plenty of room to develop each one of them, heck even Vegeta suffered a change of heart in his forties. But I doubt this discussion is anything but obsolete now.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:06 am

They can't completely get rid of Goku, it wouldn't be Dragon Ball without him. What they need to do is find a way for him to stick around but step back and let a new group of heroes take the lead, and I think the perfect way for this to happen is for Goku to develop full blown angel powers and become immortal but be forbidden from interfering with mortal affairs just like the angels. Goku could then become a mentor and comic relief character while someone like Uub could take on the lead role of the series

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:19 am

Oob is not a character. He’s a representation of Goku’s journey and ideals. Goku the student of Gohan, Kame Sennin, Karin, Mr.Popo, and Kaio is now the master. This is the potential fighter that will give Goku the great fight he’s been waiting for (which makes Super throwing in Beerus, Whis, Hit, and Jiren kind of whhhhhy)


This is why GT just shitcanned Oob. He doesn’t work outside of an epilogue.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:46 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:19 am Oob is not a character. He’s a representation of Goku’s journey and ideals. Goku the student of Gohan, Kame Sennin, Karin, Mr.Popo, and Kaio is now the master. [...]This is why GT just shitcanned Oob. He doesn’t work outside of an epilogue.
Or, you know, some writers could have given him more personality apart from basically being Kid Gohan, or even explore his training with Goku.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am

Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.

It is possible that the fans might end up hating the new lead, but that could actually work out in the series' favor. There's a "thin line between love and hate", after all. What begins as hostility and resentment from the fans may eventually turn into affection and admiration. If the writers are willing to take a big enough risk and can ignite the passion within the viewers, then the results might actually prove successful.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:47 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.

It is possible that the fans might end up hating the new lead, but that could actually work out in the series' favor. There's a "thin line between love and hate", after all. What begins as hostility and resentment from the fans may eventually turn into affection and admiration. If the writers are willing to take a big enough risk and can ignite the passion within the viewers, then the results might actually prove successful.
What pleases fans and what's best for the story aren't antithetical. And if no one accepts the new main character, how could that be what's best for the story?

Again, why not just create something original? Why use this protagonist that people very likely would resent at first just by virtue of not being the iconic main character they grew up with? Why not build an original story around them?

There is ultiimately one reason for not making something original - branding. This isn't about what's best for the story.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by super michael » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 am

Yu-Gi-Oh and Digimon are able to change the main character and cast, but no one has any problem with that. I wonder why it is a problem for Goku not to be the main character anymore.

Boruto main character isn’t Naruto and there is no problem with that, then there is Yashahime which Kagome and Inuyasha are not the main characters.

Hunter X Hunter has changed who the main character is, yet there is no problem. Gon isn’t

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:31 am

How many decades did those anime have with the same protagonist before changing main characters?
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:40 am

super michael wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 am Yu-Gi-Oh and Digimon are able to change the main character and cast, but no one has any problem with that. I wonder why it is a problem for Goku not to be the main character anymore.
Again, terrible examples. Each Yu-gi-oh is a completely new series with the only thing tying them together is their purpose of advertising the Yu-gi-oh trading card game.

Digimon is also mostly a franchise where each series is in its own universe. The only real exception was the second season which did the next generation thing people are wanting for Dragon Ball and it was always awkward as hell the lengths the show went to justify keeping the main cast out of the action including retconning the first seasons “we don’t need the magic trinkets because courage/hope/love/blah blah was inside us this whole time!!!!!” revelation. Like it’s not surprising after that TOEI said fuck it and started making each series its own thing.

Those series also established new series new world new rules much sooner than Dragon Ball theoretically would. Having Goku as the main character for over a decade plus Super and then deciding “nah”’would reek of desperation of milking a dead cow.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:58 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.

It is possible that the fans might end up hating the new lead, but that could actually work out in the series' favor. There's a "thin line between love and hate", after all. What begins as hostility and resentment from the fans may eventually turn into affection and admiration. If the writers are willing to take a big enough risk and can ignite the passion within the viewers, then the results might actually prove successful.
And who says it would be best for the series?

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.

It is possible that the fans might end up hating the new lead, but that could actually work out in the series' favor. There's a "thin line between love and hate", after all. What begins as hostility and resentment from the fans may eventually turn into affection and admiration. If the writers are willing to take a big enough risk and can ignite the passion within the viewers, then the results might actually prove successful.
This is John Cena "any reaction is a good reaction" logic and nonsensical...if fans are vocally and passionately despising a character who's at the dead center of the series, it's not if, but when, they start dropping like flies. Even if the tide turns with the audience, it'll be a reduced audience.

I mean, you're asking why they should care about the fans not accepting a new character when the fans basically determine whether the series is profitable enough. They have a very big reason to be worried about the fans not liking it. Come on. You're being disingenuous here.

A new character swopping in and replacing the face of a nearly 40-year-old franchise would never be what's best for Dragon Ball. It would be the death knell.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:33 am

MyVisionity wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.
Since we're going that route:

What would be best for the story is letting it be a finished story like it was in 95 and 97; not shoving in a bunch of mostly mediocre new crap and retcons into an existing time skip. Gimmicks like spin-offs and a new lead would ultimately only serve to distract from the fact that Dragon Ball is a zombie franchise well past its prime. But unfortunately it's still popular, so it's a money maker that needs to be continuously milked.

What would actually be best for the story is, as Masenko and JJGP alluded to at separate points, is for the fandom to just let Dragon Ball go and be done so the original story doesn't have to continue being milked indefinitely to ever diminishing returns.

(Hell, at this point I'd welcome a complete reboot over this wishy-washy approach of "let's make new material but put it all in-between the Buu arc and EOZ so we have an excuse to maintain a status quo and exploit nostalgia".)
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:34 pm You think Dragon Ball fans, who are notoriously stingy and will cry Mary Sue at anything, will like some new guy that's appointed as the main character? No.
Y'all are trying to tank the franchise here :lol:
Yeah, it wouldn't work, but if it'll make the franchise lose enough popularity to get Shueisha/Toei to put it away (at least for a while), then let them introduce a new main character. Put this zombie out of its misery.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Skar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:44 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 amA new character swopping in and replacing the face of a nearly 40-year-old franchise would never be what's best for Dragon Ball. It would be the death knell.
The thing is who would be writing this sequel focusing on a new character? It's clear Toriyama's only interested in telling stories before EoZ but he isn't getting any younger and it's getting closer to it with each arc. Toyotaro has been drawing the DBS manga since 2015 and will have probably have worked on it as long as Toriyama worked on the original by the time it reaches EoZ. The other fan manga artists hired by Shuiesha have only worked on spin-offs.

From what they've said, Toei won't work on anything without Toriyama's approval so they would have to consider it successful enough to continue on their own with a new protagonist and Toriyama needs to approve it. If that was ever the plan, you'd think Toei would've attempted an anime spin-off or something focusing on a new character to test it out but all they've done since Broly was a promotional anime with other versions of Goku as the protagonist.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:30 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:26 am
MyVisionity wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:04 am Who cares whether or not the fans would accept a new main character? The primary concern should be doing what's best for the story, not pleasing the fans. If that means no more Goku, then no more Goku.

It is possible that the fans might end up hating the new lead, but that could actually work out in the series' favor. There's a "thin line between love and hate", after all. What begins as hostility and resentment from the fans may eventually turn into affection and admiration. If the writers are willing to take a big enough risk and can ignite the passion within the viewers, then the results might actually prove successful.
This is John Cena "any reaction is a good reaction" logic and nonsensical...if fans are vocally and passionately despising a character who's at the dead center of the series, it's not if, but when, they start dropping like flies. Even if the tide turns with the audience, it'll be a reduced audience.

I mean, you're asking why they should care about the fans not accepting a new character when the fans basically determine whether the series is profitable enough. They have a very big reason to be worried about the fans not liking it. Come on. You're being disingenuous here.

A new character swopping in and replacing the face of a nearly 40-year-old franchise would never be what's best for Dragon Ball. It would be the death knell.
At least in the Cena example, he draws money. This would actively put people off ever wanting to watch DB again.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by super michael » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:42 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:40 am
super michael wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:09 am Yu-Gi-Oh and Digimon are able to change the main character and cast, but no one has any problem with that. I wonder why it is a problem for Goku not to be the main character anymore.
Again, terrible examples. Each Yu-gi-oh is a completely new series with the only thing tying them together is their purpose of advertising the Yu-gi-oh trading card game.

Digimon is also mostly a franchise where each series is in its own universe. The only real exception was the second season which did the next generation thing people are wanting for Dragon Ball and it was always awkward as hell the lengths the show went to justify keeping the main cast out of the action including retconning the first seasons “we don’t need the magic trinkets because courage/hope/love/blah blah was inside us this whole time!!!!!” revelation. Like it’s not surprising after that TOEI said fuck it and started making each series its own thing.

Those series also established new series new world new rules much sooner than Dragon Ball theoretically would. Having Goku as the main character for over a decade plus Super and then deciding “nah”’would reek of desperation of milking a dead cow.
I don't know about after Yu-Gi-Oh GX, I never got to watching after Yu-Gi-Oh GX. But I know Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu-Gi-Oh GX are connected when it comes to story. The new characters wants to be the king of games just like Yugi. Yugi is incredibly famous and well known in Yu-Gi-Oh GX and the opponent he dueled and the God Cards.

As for Digimon 01 and 02 yes they are connected, then afterward they had no connection to each other. I know what your talking about you are talking about when the Digimon were battling against
In Digimon 02 the Digimons can't digivolve into their Champion forms due to the dark towers, so they have to rely on
That is true they established new rules, new story and new power up.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:49 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:42 pm
I don't know about after Yu-Gi-Oh GX, I never got to watching after Yu-Gi-Oh GX. But I know Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu-Gi-Oh GX are connected when it comes to story. The new characters wants to be the king of games just like Yugi. Yugi is incredibly famous and well known in Yu-Gi-Oh GX and the opponent he dueled and the God Cards.
That’s hardly a connection.” Hey this is still the same universe but here’s a brand cast with their own storyline”. Having the main character from the first series make a cameo doesn’t mean the story is actually connected .



In Digimon 02 the Digimons can't digivolve into their Champion forms due to the dark towers, so they have to rely on
Yes, you are reinforcing my point. It was a bunch of awkward contrived crap to explain why the old cast was now useless.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:15 pm

Chiming in briefly, I think what's really needed to even make this idea a real possibility is for some kind of smaller spinoff that doesn't star Goku to be made.

A full-on side series that doesn't involve him in the main character role at all, to test the waters and make audiences comfortable with the idea of not having him be the main protagonist.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:44 pm

Yes and no. It could do a series with Goku as the secondary main character guiding Uub into becoming his own person. However, after that, no series without him. I think Dragonball has crossed the point of no return where it needs Goku to exist. I don't know if an Uub show would do as well, something would seem amiss I believe.

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