Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

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kemuri07
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Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:19 pm

I've been thinking about this topic for quite awhile, and honestly, considering the many debates on Super's depiction of Goku as well as the future of the franchise here on this site, there' also plenty of people here thinking about this site. I mean, Goku is the face of this franchise. And in some ways I do agree that without Goku there is no Dragon Ball. But if we are to accept that DB will more than likely be here for the immediate future, than I do think we have accept this: DB cannot grow if Goku remains at the forefront of this series.

Here's the problem: Goku can't really grow anymore. And what is a show if a character can no longer progress? As far as I'm concerned, Goku's arc ended the moment he reached Super Saiyan and defeated Frieza--and that was decades ago. He completed his own meta narrative: Rising from a common warrior to best the strongest person in the galaxy. After that--nothing. I think DBZ was able to coast for awhile because Z always felt like one long "passing of the torch" from Goku to his son Gohan, who himself took on the mantle as the strongest warrior following Cell's defeat. I think there's a lot of potential there of having a hero who is the complete opposite of his father in every way. Of course we all know that didn't really happen, and the show soon went back to bring Goku to the forefront again.

Whether or not you believe in the rumors that Toei basically forced Toriyama to bring Goku back, I think this is where the seams really started to be shown. Many people seem to not like the Buu saga after all. And I think it becomes infinitely worse with Super: A main character who seems out of step with where shonen has been heading for awhile. What I've been really digging about more modern shonen shows, is not just the clever ways they manage to side-step DBZ's power creep problem, but also that many of them introduce more nuance interpretations of the hero protagonist. The problem with Goku is that there' really nothing there for him. If the entire emotional core is centered around Goku just getting a new transformation--there's a problem there. It's why I struggled with the last arc for the anime of Super--I was only really watching just for ultra instinct; I couldn't care about anything else.

Granted I think the Super manga is taking steps to course-correct the problems presented by the anime, and Toyotaro seems to be planting the seeds of what could be begininngs of a more deconstructionist attitude towards Goku and Vegeta's need for more and more power, and the introduction of a new character, Granola, has vast potential. But I wonder if it's a little bit too late?

I guess to wind this rant down, I do wonder if the only way to truly save DB is to focus on a new protagonist? I think Goku has run his course, and maybe we should allow him his final send off before focusing on a character that could possibly serve as an antithesis to Goku. Weirdly enough I think the person who is perfect for this is Broly. While I wasn't so enthused with this new version of the character, I think where the movie leaves him is a much more interesting spot than his non-canon persona: He clearly has a strong moral foundation, but has something inside him that is wrathful and all destorying. It'd make an interesting counterpoint to the saiyans: A saiyan who is aware of and terrified of his own potential. How does a character react to problems and situations? I think that could be an interesting way of recontextualizing DB.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:22 pm

At that point, it's time to end the story. If you want DB without Goku as the lead, you don't want DB, you want a spinoff.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:24 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:22 pm At that point, it's time to end the story. If you want DB without Goku as the lead, you don't want DB, you want a spinoff.
I'd argue that the massive amounts of world building can absolutely lead with DB existing without Goku.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:27 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:24 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:22 pm At that point, it's time to end the story. If you want DB without Goku as the lead, you don't want DB, you want a spinoff.
I'd argue that the massive amounts of world building can absolutely lead with DB existing without Goku.
World building isn't what DB does well. It's not what made it a success and if you do change it like that, DB is just a brand at that point and not a story. DB is the story about Son Goku. What's so exciting about staying in that world without it's lead?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:28 pm

I've said for the longest time that the BOG movie should've been the final "main" story that focused on the old cast, and that a next gen show should've been what followed, focusing on the next gen of characters while the old cast took a back seat. Like you said, there's just nowhere else to take Goku, and this also applies to everyone else in his circle. With how big the franchise is right now, why not take the risk and produce a 12-24 episode series focused on the next generation ?

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:33 pm

Next gen stories are almost always boring or at least never nearly as appealing as they sound.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:35 pm

There is no Dragon Ball without Goku.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:38 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:33 pmNext gen stories are almost always boring or at least never nearly as appealing as they sound.
Stories that recycle the same plot points of older, more popular stories are just as boring if not more so. No one's asking for a 300 episode show, just a short series to test the idea. If it works then great, if not then no harm done.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:46 pm

Outside of a next-gen or whatever spinoff, about the only way I can see the main DB to continue on without Goku is creating an all new Goku.

In other words, the story introduces a brand new character that is also named Son Goku, and that character would take over in the old Goku's position. Maybe the new Goku would have just enough similar traits to the old Goku that would help in filling his absence.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:50 pm

Yes, it definitely can. Bardock TV Special, Bardock OVA, Trunks TV Special and Dragon Ball Online are there as the undeniable evidences. Well, essentially, you already have two potential protagonists, Bardock and Trunks, that can lead Dragon Ball (separately or together).

And then you have the next generation. I believe Uub can (and should) take up on the role of the protagonist, along with Goten, Trunks, Pan, Bra and Marron.

Goku can appear here and there, be a mentor... whatever, but the point is that his role can be reduced. After all, what else can be done with him? I said in the manga thread that a new development can be made now that seemingly Goku will have to atone for his father's sins (an idea never explored so far), but will Toyotaro actually deliver it? Can Toyotaro really do it? Let's just hope he can. Otherwise, yeah... Goku should just retire, the series isn't doing anything interesting with him anyway (funnily enough, only Dragon Ball Heroes is doing).
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:55 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:38 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:33 pmNext gen stories are almost always boring or at least never nearly as appealing as they sound.
Stories that recycle the same plot points of older, more popular stories are just as boring if not more so. No one's asking for a 300 episode show, just a short series to test the idea. If it works then great, if not then no harm done.
And stories that put a paint job on an old car and call it brand new are even more boring than that.
Yes, it definitely can. Bardock TV Special, Bardock OVA, Trunks TV Special and Dragon Ball Online are there as the undeniable evidences.
45 minute one offs aren't the slam dunk you think they are. For a VERY limited time, other characters can be the main character, but their impact is predicated on them being rare. They aren't proof they can lead their own long form stories.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:58 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:50 pmI said in the manga thread that a new development can be made now that seemingly Goku will have to atone for his father's sins (an idea never explored so far), but will Toyotaro actually deliver it? Can Toyotaro really do it? Let's just hope he can.
I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you. If there's one thing modern DB has done perfectly is over promise and under deliver.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:48 pm

I adore Goku but I feel Dragon Ball has more than enough characters at this point to not even be about him anymore. The story is plenty capable of being compelling without him because at a certain point it has to constantly write him out of it for long periods of time anyway.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:51 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:48 pm I adore Goku but I feel Dragon Ball has more than enough characters at this point to not even be about him anymore. The story is plenty capable of being compelling without him because at a certain point it has to constantly write him out of it for long periods of time anyway.
But even when Goku's out of commission, his absence is a crucial part of the story in and of itself. While Goku isn't loud or angry and doesn't have access to a time machine, when he's not on screen other characters frequently ask "Where's Goku?"

Dragon Balls not a story about Dragon Balls and martial artists. It's a story about Goku, and everything else is just there for the ride.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:01 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:51 pm
KBABZ wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:48 pm I adore Goku but I feel Dragon Ball has more than enough characters at this point to not even be about him anymore. The story is plenty capable of being compelling without him because at a certain point it has to constantly write him out of it for long periods of time anyway.
But even when Goku's out of commission, his absence is a crucial part of the story in and of itself. While Goku isn't loud or angry and doesn't have access to a time machine, when he's not on screen other characters frequently ask "Where's Goku?"

Dragon Balls not a story about Dragon Balls and martial artists. It's a story about Goku, and everything else is just there for the ride.
IMO that totally destroys the tension and illusion of when Goku IS absent though. Oh, Vegeta's not gonna kill Perfect Cell, Goku hasn't come back yet. That sort of thing.

Man you guys are gonna HATE me and Robo's DB Sequel story, hah.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:02 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:51 pm Dragon Balls not a story about Dragon Balls and martial artists. It's a story about Goku, and everything else is just there for the ride.
BOOM!!

And that there is why something like Dragon Ball Online or Heroes with Beat and Note will only ever work as a game.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:04 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:01 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:51 pm
KBABZ wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:48 pm I adore Goku but I feel Dragon Ball has more than enough characters at this point to not even be about him anymore. The story is plenty capable of being compelling without him because at a certain point it has to constantly write him out of it for long periods of time anyway.
But even when Goku's out of commission, his absence is a crucial part of the story in and of itself. While Goku isn't loud or angry and doesn't have access to a time machine, when he's not on screen other characters frequently ask "Where's Goku?"

Dragon Balls not a story about Dragon Balls and martial artists. It's a story about Goku, and everything else is just there for the ride.
IMO that totally destroys the tension and illusion of when Goku IS absent though. Oh, Vegeta's not gonna kill Perfect Cell, Goku hasn't come back yet. That sort of thing.

Man you guys are gonna HATE me and Robo's DB Sequel story, hah.
I mean I agree somewhat but your point was that the absences are proof the story can stand without him - but his absence WAS the story. Even when Goku's not there, the story is a countdown to when he does get there. Everything starts and finishes with him, which is why there's no Dragon Ball without him. If you want to say Goku's absences are a clunky plot device, then sure. But that's not the discussion.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:26 pm

Toei never forced Toriyama to bring Goku back. If anything, Toei seemed perfectly onboard with Gohan being the new main character, as is evident from the opening and ending sequences for the Boo arc. By Toriyama’s own admission, he brought Goku back because he felt that Gohan being the new lead wasn’t working out.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by pepd » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:44 pm

I think it can. There has no been DB without Gokuu (except maybe Great Saiyaman arc), and it would take effort to make his absence not part of the story, but I is possible.
Of course, it couldn't be the DB we know, but the same goes for anything new. It would also depend on what you consider defining in DB. Some official DB is not for me more "DB" than for others is some bad fanfic, and for some the initial tomes of DB are not totally DB yet. If there are elements of Gokuu that some consider crucial, it would be one more element to keep in mind with tone and universe for them, but one element of Gokuu doesn't equal Gokuu (Now, if for someone DB is Gokuu itself period, then oc there can't be DB without Gokuu).
I couldn't tell you right now what elements exactly would make something DB for me apart from universe and style, but is definitely not Gokuu itself.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:16 pm

They had their chance with Gohan but then Toriyama blew it in Buu arc "he can't beat buu he does school now".

We'd have to hope they do some kind of spinoff show.
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