Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

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Cure Dragon 255
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:16 pm

You had me until that whole whiny "IF GOKU CANT GET OUT OF THE WAY THE UNIVERSE SHOULD END!". You and Rori have compelling arguments but then turn into bitter rants. If you could explain more calmly I would hear you out.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:19 pm

Again: what exactly did Goku do to cause the issues with the Zamasu arc? He doesn't steal the spotlight, the usual Dragon Ball tropes actually get turned on their ear a lot to handicap his few contributions to begin with, and all in all he's glorified muscle. What problems were caused by focusing too much on Goku (who again, is hardly focused on to begin with) and not poor communication among the writing staff from episode to episode and an overly baked ending?
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:31 pm

The problems with the Zamasu arc was the horrendous tonal whiplash. Nothing to do with Goku

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Skar » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:54 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:40 pmRight now the only thing keeping Dragon Ball relevant is nostalgia. Super was not the renewal people were hoping it would be. Nothing in Super or the new films is going to inspire modern comics or artists. If you want Dragon Ball to be more than a toyline you should want it to be more than the 1-Dimensional protagonist Goku has morphed into over the years. Toriyama's wit and gift for squeezing the most tension out of a convoluted arc aren't there to cover for the insipid plots and boring characters. This whole thread is like watching a bunch of Hulk Hogan fans circa 1994 insist that nothing needs to change and that the "Hulkamania" gimmick doesn't need any revision. The act is clearly on its last legs.
I can agree with that but I've always thought the series overall was on its last legs. I think that's why Toriyama decided on a midquel instead of a full fledged sequel. DB has always been about escalation which can only go so far to the point that Goku's training to surpass a God capable of destroying the universe. We're only a few years from EoZ and Toriyama just turned 66 this week so he'll probably be close to 70 by the time it's reached.

I understand fans wanting to see a series focusing on other characters. I don't think there's anything wrong with that and I just mean what's likely to happen from the creators at this point. I also doubt Toei would override GT with a new series since it'll be the same thing. An older Goku as the lead with the next generation offering some support.

Hero's Legacy and Online took place centuries in the future after most of the Z fighters were dead and focused on descendents of Goku. Goku Jr only appeared in a special and half an episode at the end while Online was abandoned. Some ideas were later reused in Xenoverse and Heroes but the antagonists are now present in the same era as DBS and before EoZ so that a few versions of Goku could face them.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:58 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:16 pm You had me until that whole whiny "IF GOKU CANT GET OUT OF THE WAY THE UNIVERSE SHOULD END!". You and Rori have compelling arguments but then turn into bitter rants. If you could explain more calmly I would hear you out.
I'm sorry but that is simply not going to work on me. It's gaslighting.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:01 am

Its not gaslighting. It was a mistake to include you in with the whole "Whiny shit thing". I do genuinely want to hear what you have to say.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:08 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:01 am Its not gaslighting. It was a mistake to include you in with the whole "Whiny shit thing". I do genuinely want to hear what you have to say.
Well I'm glad that isn't the case then.

As for what I have to say, I've more or less shared what I could of my view here on this particular topic. There are certain things people will remain adamant about. And it's at the point that this topic in particular is becoming rather unenjoyable for me and I can't imagine it's enjoyable for some others in this thread.

The tl;dr of my view is I think Toriyama's indecisiveness lead to a more flawed product and I personally enjoyed the product less near the end of it. But clearly a lot of people do not feel that way. In fact a lot of people don't really care for Gohan in particular or at the very least somehow do not like him in Cell arc which that is like my favorite moment of the entire series and truly cemented my love for Dragon Ball. But there's also plenty out there that do.

This is a discussion based on viewpoints of if Dragon Ball is only that way when Goku is the lead or if Dragon Ball can be more than just Goku as the lead. If Goku is pivotal and mandatory to be the main character or if perhaps after all these years and stories someone else can fill those shoes. I think with how decisive people are on this particular topic, it's clear people on either side won't be budging here because it's our view.

And at least for me, when a topic has started to run in circles and people are getting annoyed or perhaps a bit heated, it's time to pull away and find a topic that's a bit less tense. So that was a bit more than a tl;dr but yeah feel it covers whatever else I have to say.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:12 am

Good. That is great. I loved that scene too. My only want for the franchise is for it to keep making people of all ages smile and be happy. I really dont have a horse in this race.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by PanSimpson » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:04 am

No, no it can't, most unfortunately.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:25 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:09 pm
ABED wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:02 pm Escalation is kinda baked into the premise which is about a overcoming limits reaching greater heights.
We've had two sequel series. This talking point worked when I was fifteen and arguing if SSj Goku could beat World War Hulk. It doesn't work anymore. "Escalation," like every other method of building tension, isn't interesting when used in excess.
How was Goku the problem with either of those arcs?
Because every interesting narrative beat they could have taken had to be skipped in order to make Goku the lead and preserve the most easily marketable version of Goku. But you know that.
What do you want out of Gohan's story?
A new story.
I don't have ANY clue what the hell some ridiculous could character A beat B from two different franchises has to do with this discussion. DB is about continually passing one's limits. It all has to escalate otherwise it's counter to the premise of the entire series.

What narrative beats were skipped over to accomodate the main character? Your point is so incredibly vague. It's not as though Goku was the one who defeated Zamasu.

Goku being the lead doesn't prevent new stories from occuring.
This fandom never even attempts to answer those questions when dissecting why Super (and tbh, Buu) Arcs fall apart.
Goku wasn't the reason The Buu arc fell apart. That would assume it was coherent to that point. Toriyama was clearly burned out and throwing crap against the wall and having fun. Goku returning to the lead role wasn't the cause of the issues, it's more of symptom but I feel it was the right move ultimately because it's his story, and Vegeta's epiphany at the very end feels like a more emotionally compelling and resonant moment than Gohan realizing his potential for the nth time. I lost count of how many times that's happened. It ceases to be cathartic. Vegeta's epiphany isn't possible if Gohan is in the lead.
Why doesn't that surprise me?
Um, you make it sound like it's irrational or I didn't give it a chance. I did. I like the show, but legacy characters don't interest me as much for good reason. They don't form their own identity. Several people on here have pointed to Gohan in the Trunks special as what they wanted from his character but he's trying to be his father. If he had become like that in the present timeline, why make him the lead? Say what you will about the execution but Gohan realizing he needs to put together his smarts and his strength so he can protect his family. That's a compelling direction for his character and one that in no way required him to be the lead in order to complete that story in a satisfying way.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:08 pm Stop characterizing us as some Gohan fanboys we even have a thread "My boy Gohan" going on, we have that Majin Buu guy getting brainhurt and clearly you and a few others upset that people wanted something more out of the series cause I keep hearing about how Bohan fans only care when he's some power house thus missing the entire point of why we enjoyed him.
You hyperbolically act like Gohan not becoming the lead is some critical failure that ruined the series. You cling to your fundamental misreading of the story and aggressively try to push that as the way the story should have gone and would have gone had stupid Toriyama not fucked it up by bringing Goku back and "changing" Gohan. Then you get butthurt when people keep challenging you on your misconceptions. Not to mention all the projection you do (Talk about "brainhurt". Clearly that thread got to you if you felt the need to complain about it here.).

Your behavior is indeed that of a silly fanboy, and thus very easy to mock; hence why that thread exists.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:23 am

Majin Buu wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:52 am
You hyperbolically act like Gohan not becoming the lead is some critical failure that ruined the series
But also how much of the Boo arc was really impacted by Toriyama switching his mind about making Gohan the lead?

Gohan and Boo have a drawn out battle until Gohan wins. Gohan doesn’t care about seeking stronger opponents so no Oob. Ending probably would focus on how now he’s a dad with his own child or something.

Most of the Boo arc would play exactly the same as it did.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:35 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:23 am But also how much of the Boo arc was really impacted by Toriyama switching his mind about making Gohan the lead?

Gohan and Boo have a drawn out battle until Gohan wins. Gohan doesn’t care about seeking stronger opponents so no Oob. Ending probably would focus on how now he’s a dad with his own child or something.

Most of the Boo arc would play exactly the same as it did.
Exactly. Gohan becomes the strongest (again) and defeats the big bad (again) is all that would have amounted to.

These extreme Gohan fans basically wanted that again, just with an older Gohan in the lead role that acts more like Future Gohan.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:53 pm

What insightful posts!

For my own part I would just like to remind the Goku fanboys that "theat appears, hero faces threat" is the long and short of just about any series with combat in it. What ends up making those stories worthwhile is what happens between the arrival and resolution of the threat and how well executed it all is. The Saiyan Arc illustrates this better than any other arc in the series. Would the arc be remembered so fondly if the art weren't so crisp or if Piccolo's death hadn't been so impactful or if Vegeta's taunting of Goku hadn't so perfectly captured the condescension of an upper class twit? Would the eventual rivalry between Goku and Vegeta be believable if Vegeta didn't make such a good foil for Goku in his first arc? Probably not.

Were the series to move on to a new protagonist or radically change Goku in some way, the story would obviously have to adjust to account for that. In fact, I'd argue the lack of personal stakes in Super have gone a long ways to holding the series back.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:08 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:53 pm What insightful posts!

For my own part I would just like to remind the Goku fanboys that "theat appears, hero faces threat" is the long and short of just about any series with combat in it. What ends up making those stories worthwhile is what happens between the arrival and resolution of the threat and how well executed it all is. The Saiyan Arc illustrates this better than any other arc in the series. Would the arc be remembered so fondly if the art weren't so crisp or if Piccolo's death hadn't been so impactful or if Vegeta's taunting of Goku hadn't so perfectly captured the condescension of an upper class twit? Would the eventual rivalry between Goku and Vegeta be believable if Vegeta didn't make such a good foil for Goku in his first arc? Probably not.
That can still be still be achieved with Goku as a main character, so long a few of the others share the spotlight.
Were the series to move on to a new protagonist or radically change Goku in some way, the story would obviously have to adjust to account for that. In fact, I'd argue the lack of personal stakes in Super have gone a long ways to holding the series back.
Dragon Ball GT notoriously gives Goku all the spotlight, but it still had big personal stakes. The two issues are independent.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:55 pm

I like Gohan and think as one of the most important characters and Goku’s son he should get more to do. I think with the TOP and the Moro arc his scenes have been increasing and I think that is a good thing but no I don’t think he would make a better protagonists than Goku. Once you get past the growing up aspect of his character there isn’t much that makes him unique as a hero. He’s very normal, nice and caring and way less “weird” than his father. That doesn’t make him a bad character. I love Gohan. But personally I do think it makes him a less interesting protagonist than Goku.

But again that doesn’t mean I think he should just retire and stay home. I like that Gohan wants to fight to protect his family he just isn’t obsessed with fighting as his father is and that is perfectly okay.

Also thinking Goku makes a better protagonist than Gohan does not make you a Goku fanboy. Personally if I am anything I am a Vegeta fan girl (to the point that I get very defensive about his character) but as I said earlier I also think Vegeta would make a bad main protagonist. I mean I might enjoy some fanfic with Vegeta as the main character but enjoying fanfiction and what I think is best for Dragon Ball overall are two very different things.


Also thinking Goku is the best main character does not mean you think Goku needs to do everything or be in every scene.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:13 pm

Kinokima wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:55 pm I like Gohan and think as one of the most important characters and Goku’s son he should get more to do. I think with the TOP and the Moro arc his scenes have been increasing and I think that is a good thing but no I don’t think he would make a better protagonists than Goku. Once you get past the growing up aspect of his character there isn’t much that makes him unique as a hero. He’s very normal, nice and caring and way less “weird” than his father. That doesn’t make him a bad character. I love Gohan. But personally I do think it makes him a less interesting protagonist than Goku.

But again that doesn’t mean I think he should just retire and stay home. I like that Gohan wants to fight to protect his family he just isn’t obsessed with fighting as his father is and that is perfectly okay.

Also thinking Goku makes a better protagonist than Gohan does not make you a Goku fanboy. Personally if I am anything I am a Vegeta fan girl (to the point that I get very defensive about his character) but as I said earlier I also think Vegeta would make a bad main protagonist. I mean I might enjoy some fanfic with Vegeta as the main character but enjoying fanfiction and what I think is best for Dragon Ball overall are two very different things.


Also thinking Goku is the best main character does not mean you think Goku needs to do everything or be in every scene.
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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm

Part, or most of DB's charm is that Goku is the main character, because he is the most charismatic character the franchise has. It's not just what Goku does or strives for, but who he is.
It's pointless to list his unique characteristics, we all know them, so to succesfully replace him you'd need to do it with someone that would bring to the table some unique characteristics as well. The remaining cast lacks that, so unless you are willing to change an existing character's persona, you'd end up with a pretty "predictable" show.

I mean, Goku's been carrying a fighting show while losing most of the fights.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:25 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm It's pointless to list his unique characteristics, we all know them, so to succesfully replace him you'd need to do it with someone that would bring to the table some unique characteristics as well. The remaining cast lacks that, so unless you are willing to change an existing character's persona, you'd end up with a pretty "predictable" show.
Which is why you don't try and replace Goku with an existing character. You replace Goku with a brand new character. Someone just as unique and unpredictable as he is.

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Re: Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:25 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:58 pm It's pointless to list his unique characteristics, we all know them, so to succesfully replace him you'd need to do it with someone that would bring to the table some unique characteristics as well. The remaining cast lacks that, so unless you are willing to change an existing character's persona, you'd end up with a pretty "predictable" show.
Which is why you don't try and replace Goku with an existing character. You replace Goku with a brand new character. Someone just as unique and unpredictable as he is.
Why not either make that a spin off or a completely new property? If this hypothetical character is unique, why not make something original?
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